Official Talk is Cheap - Ryu Match Up Thread

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

As far as my experience goes, Sheik is too dangerous offstage.
Also, finding opportunities is really hard, as Sheik's frame data and ending lag is too low... Really hard to land a Shoryuken or Donkey Kick in her, not even when you expect her to fall, cause she's a rush down character. Also, Hadoukens have a nice exploitable end lag (if Sheik's mid-short range), and have no priority against Sheik's needles.

Also, Sheik weaknesses are her lack of survability (gets KO'd fast cause she's a light character), and the lack of KO capability.
Sheik's survability goes higher against Ryu because he can't KO really fast, and his KO moves aren't easy to land on Sheik.

I'm sorry to say that a good Ryu vs a good Sheik will go in Sheik's favour, just because she has too many resorces and is plain OP.

Maybe I'm not good enough with Ryu, but I've played several times with one of the top 5 Sheiks in Spain, and I can assure you that Sheik is just too overwhelming... I'd say 35/40-65/60 , and I don't like it, because I really want Ryu to get top tier. The potential in Ryu is superbe, but we're talking about a sort of-newborn Ryu, which still has a lot of places to go and thing to learn. The meta will evolve with patches, and some player will play with Ryu and will take him to the stars!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Instead of wishing for patches maybe you need to focus on becoming stronger.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Instead of wishing for patches maybe you need to focus on becoming stronger.

Just my thoughts.

I'm not whishing for patches, it looks like you just read that part of my post, wow. For me, the game is perfect for me now. I'm just saying that there WILL be patches. There are characters to come, and so patches that will, one way or another, change the meta wether we like it or not.

And yes, I'm already focusing on become stronger. Don't need to tell me twice.

 

[HoodedAltair]

You made a few questionable choices during footsies in the early game but it seems to me you recognized those errors and cleaned up your play.

I detect...some of MY Ryu in your Ryu. :D

We Megaman now?!!?! We DOWNLOADIN?!?!?!

You got much better from when I last saw you play.

It came down to your strong punishes as I said before. Make those count and get that stock lead. It's extremely vital. You want Sheik input though correct?

@ ShippoFoxFire I SUMMON YOU!!!

Lol yeah have to download those opponents. Yes we need sheik input badly. Where the sheiks at so we can move on

 

[HoodedAltair]

As far as my experience goes, Sheik is too dangerous offstage.
Also, finding opportunities is really hard, as Sheik's frame data and ending lag is too low... Really hard to land a Shoryuken or Donkey Kick in her, not even when you expect her to fall, cause she's a rush down character. Also, Hadoukens have a nice exploitable end lag (if Sheik's mid-short range), and have no priority against Sheik's needles.

Also, Sheik weaknesses are her lack of survability (gets KO'd fast cause she's a light character), and the lack of KO capability.
Sheik's survability goes higher against Ryu because he can't KO really fast, and his KO moves aren't easy to land on Sheik.

I'm sorry to say that a good Ryu vs a good Sheik will go in Sheik's favour, just because she has too many resorces and is plain OP.

Maybe I'm not good enough with Ryu, but I've played several times with one of the top 5 Sheiks in Spain, and I can assure you that Sheik is just too overwhelming... I'd say 35/40-65/60 , and I don't like it, because I really want Ryu to get top tier. The potential in Ryu is superbe, but we're talking about a sort of-newborn Ryu, which still has a lot of places to go and thing to learn. The meta will evolve with patches, and some player will play with Ryu and will take him to the stars!

Sheik is not plain OP and I feel strongly about that. The character is not mindless and in a good place. With rage in this game she is incredibly in a spot where it's not in winnable to play her with someone like Ryu. I'm not sure if you read our long posts on the first page but we have a LOT going for us between our Fair beating hers, Utilt locks, 72% shoryuken kill without rage, higher damage output, etc. You say sheik can gimp us easy but I disagree. Ryu's recovery is very good if you save you're jump. He can always make it back and mix it up between tatsu, FADC, haduken, shoryuken, and jump in any order. I think you're too quick to judge this MU. I don't know about the top 5 Spain sheiks and I haven't played them so I couldn't tell you. I'm going off local sheiks and decent amount of friendlies with Shippo

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

You made a few questionable choices during footsies in the early game but it seems to me you recognized those errors and cleaned up your play.

I detect...some of MY Ryu in your Ryu. :D

We Megaman now?!!?! We DOWNLOADIN?!?!?!

You got much better from when I last saw you play.

It came down to your strong punishes as I said before. Make those count and get that stock lead. It's extremely vital. You want Sheik input though correct?

@ ShippoFoxFire I SUMMON YOU!!!

IM MAD I FINISHED THIS THEN ACCIDENTALLY HIT BACK

I agree with EmblemLord, you cleaned it up nice. Cptn failed to respect the utilt. Normally when Sheik's begin to realize this, mix it up with dtilt since you can cancel that into your specials.

-Your focus attack movement is crisp. I didn't see cptn try to combat the focus attacks and more or less waited. Sheik can really only Uair and needles against it, but she can also use her mobility to kite you and try to follow your moment.

-Against sheik, heavy utilt and usmash are INSANELY good toold to use against her. She spends a majority of her time up in your face right above you with fairs. If she goes a little hard or you walk back a tiny bit without her realizing you can get that tasty damage in. Emblemlord does this lots against me.

-Watch out for needles during recovery. Sheik can't hit you safely during your tatsu except with needles. Watch out for bouncing fishes are the start or end of it. She has to take a huge gamble to fight your up B. You really wont get trumped much since she can't fight your Up B without being telegraphed. Her safest option is to try to back air/nair you during your rising portion of it for the stage spike. You should anticipate it when she jumps off stage.

-When sheik is spamming Ftilt when you're near her foot at the top, SDI out and smash her with a nice heavy hit. Sometimes the sheik can anticipate this and go for the short hop fair, there's really nothing you can do about this, just try the mistake option here.

-At about 80% tie in neutral sheik's biggest fear is your Up B. Make them scared. However sheiks will keep sheild since your throw options aren;t the best. Ftilt heavy her for that shield break.


I believe I played you during eclipsamus. If you're going to SKTAR next weekend I can definitely do some friendlies with you two for the Sheik practice. I need some Ryu practice myself since you two were the only two Ryu's I ever fought.



EVERYONE ELSE: I'll be here for some Sheik input for the forum since I'm already here I guess.

 

[Emblem Lord]

yo. play me online bro. lets go

 

[.Alpha.]

So see we are getting the grace of advice from one of the only three Ryu's a guy can reference as great at this character, thats awesome, and thanks Emblem been keeping up with your local tourneys and channel lately great stuff. So any advice with ZSS anyone? And I don't mean grab and roll FG ZSS, I mean one with great SH movement with aerial timing and that breaks many of your combos with down B I have trouble approaching from the air or the ground when spaced properly even when I do manage to win against this one main I've been sparring with. Long-mid range is pointless and doesn't get anything done for either yet coming in close with a SH approach usually gets beat out when I try SH FF nair or SH FF fair by her aerial zair or just shield(Where I do occasionally win with auto cancel jab pressure or grab follow up off the auto cancel). As well as any advice ROB and lastly well spaced marths and lucinas matchup advice?

 

[HoodedAltair]

So see we are getting the grace of advice from one of the only three Ryu's a guy can reference as great at this character, thats awesome, and thanks Emblem been keeping up with your local tourneys and channel lately great stuff. So any advice with ZSS anyone? And I don't mean grab and roll FG ZSS, I mean one with great SH movement with aerial timing and that breaks many of your combos with down B I have trouble approaching from the air or the ground when spaced properly even when I do manage to win against this one main I've been sparring with. Long-mid range is pointless and doesn't get anything done for either yet coming in close with a SH approach usually gets beat out when I try SH FF nair or SH FF fair by her aerial zair or just shield(Where I do occasionally win with auto cancel jab pressure or grab follow up off the auto cancel). As well as any advice ROB and lastly well spaced marths and lucinas matchup advice?

I would say this is out of place but I think we can close the sheik MU up at this time. Though we have little sheik input, what we have is enough to suffice. I'll write an overview and post in OP later. ZSS should probably be our next MU topic and I can reply to you on that later. ROB needs to wait. You can use our skype ground for off hand MU's or create a character specific MU thread on the boards if you want to go out of order. But commenting MUs out of order like that messes up the archive, sorry.

 

[.Alpha.]

I apologize I'm new to smashboards and forums I made the embarrassing mistake of only reading the title near the thumbnail which didn't reveal the fighter one part.Sorry for crowding up the actual subject at matter and the info given Looking forward to the other MU threads, thanks in advance.

 

[HoodedAltair]

OK FINALLY! The sheik MU is complete and we can move on from that nightmare knowing we got a thorough conclusion. More details for the MU are in the OP spoiler. Our next MU discussion is Zero Suit Samus. Blab onwards!

Here's the sheik MU without details

Summary:
Ryu must respect Sheiks ability to out range him. Her fair, nair, and bair all out range him if spaced right on shield. Ryu can however easily trade with her in the air and rack up damage through this if not combo. Both characters can combo each other with ease. Decent hurtbox sizes and good weights for each other to work with. Utilt locking plays a tremendous key in this MU taking a sheik from 40% to 75% for a shoryuken kill. Ryu loses at far range consistently. Sheiks needles outrange everything he has at a distance. Ryu can do well up close and personal if he invades her area of spaced aerials. His frame 2 tilts and jab 1 are faster than all of sheiks immediate moves making close up scary. Ryu can potentially win the air game if enough pressure and thoughtfulness is applied. This coupled with the fact that if he lands the first kill on sheik in a 2 stock scenario, the game is near entirely in his favor as sheik will have a rough time killing him. The same alternatively goes for shiek since she can play very safe. This MU will come down to which character can land the first kill. Ryu can kill sheik very early with shoryuken but landing the kill can be tricky. Sheik alternatively works much harder for the kill and needs to gimp Ryus mixup recovies or have a good smash read.

Pros
-Easy utilt locking
-Faster options close range
-Aerials will often trade
-High damage output vs. light character
-Shaku hover makes mid range duable

Cons
-Shiek wins far range
-Ryu is easy to combo
-Recovery somewhat exploitable
-Besides close range tilts, Ryu's moves are slow and telegraphed
-Winning neutral game requires more reads from Ryu than sheik
-Sheik eats through FA

Stages to ban:
-Smashville - Sheik can use the smashville platform to extend and convert combos to kills as well as platform camp and charge needles
-Final Destination - No platforms for Shoryuken platform cancels and sheik has a lot of room to work with

Stages to pick:
Battlefield - Ryu's best stage for many reasons. Platforms ideal for Ryu, close space to keep sheik close range, a lot of off stage space to mixup recovery. High ceiling to live usmash and uair kills from sheik. Minimally effects TSRK
Town and City - One of Ryu's better stages. Good for both but Ryu still has good platforms, a low ceiling, and a tiny but decent amount of room to work with. Low ceiling vs. high ceiling between 2 maps dependent on the sheiks main killing tool

 

[Danimal197]

Sheik main here. For relevant mu data - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZvsdeEzMR4

 

[Ridel]

OK FINALLY! The sheik MU is complete and we can move on from that nightmare knowing we got a thorough conclusion. More details for the MU are in the OP spoiler. Our next MU discussion is Zero Suit Samus. Blab onwards!

Here's the sheik MU without details

Summary:
Ryu must respect Sheiks ability to out range him. Her fair, nair, and bair all out range him if spaced right on shield. Ryu can however easily trade with her in the air and rack up damage through this if not combo. Both characters can combo each other with ease. Decent hurtbox sizes and good weights for each other to work with. Utilt locking plays a tremendous key in this MU taking a sheik from 40% to 75% for a shoryuken kill. Ryu loses at far range consistently. Sheiks needles outrange everything he has at a distance. Ryu can do well up close and personal if he invades her area of spaced aerials. His frame 2 tilts and jab 1 are faster than all of sheiks immediate moves making close up scary. Ryu can potentially win the air game if enough pressure and thoughtfulness is applied. This coupled with the fact that if he lands the first kill on sheik in a 2 stock scenario, the game is near entirely in his favor as sheik will have a rough time killing him. The same alternatively goes for shiek since she can play very safe. This MU will come down to which character can land the first kill. Ryu can kill sheik very early with shoryuken but landing the kill can be tricky. Sheik alternatively works much harder for the kill and needs to gimp Ryus mixup recovies or have a good smash read.

Pros
-Easy utilt locking
-Faster options close range
-Aerials will often trade
-High damage output vs. light character
-Shaku hover makes mid range duable

Cons
-Shiek wins far range
-Ryu is easy to combo
-Recovery somewhat exploitable
-Besides close range tilts, Ryu's moves are slow and telegraphed
-Winning neutral game requires more reads from Ryu than sheik
-Sheik eats through FA

Stages to ban:
-Smashville - Sheik can use the smashville platform to extend and convert combos to kills as well as platform camp and charge needles
-Final Destination - No platforms for Shoryuken platform cancels and sheik has a lot of room to work with

Stages to pick:
Battlefield - Ryu's best stage for many reasons. Platforms ideal for Ryu, close space to keep sheik close range, a lot of off stage space to mixup recovery. High ceiling to live usmash and uair kills from sheik. Minimally effects TSRK
Town and City - One of Ryu's better stages. Good for both but Ryu still has good platforms, a low ceiling, and a tiny but decent amount of room to work with. Low ceiling vs. high ceiling between 2 maps dependent on the sheiks main killing tool

So putting numbers on it, would you say it's 40-60 in Shiek's favor?

 

[HoodedAltair]

So putting numbers on it, would you say it's 40-60 in Shiek's favor?

Not at all. I realistically believe it is 50/50. Give or take 5 either way

 

[Emblem Lord]

She controls neutral. It can't be even. Simply speaking objectively.

 

[HoodedAltair]

She controls neutral. It can't be even. Simply speaking objectively.

I'm not here to give MU numbers. I just took all the info and compiled it. I agree she has an easier time in neutral but with Ryu's high racking damage, early KO move, heavy weight, good recovery, fast close range options, I do believe its 50/50 or 45/55 since he can just as well compete in the neutral at mid-close range but that's neither here nor there. Would love to move onto the next MU please

 

[.Alpha.]

So I commented about this MU awhile ago but we were still on Sheik and since then I've learned a ton about the pros since then but Ill start with the cons Firstly and something that should always be in mind as Ryu in this matchup, you're a heavy character and she eats those combo wise which means overextended non true combos and or whiffed neutral approaches when your trade is over will probably result in you losing said trade. Also like Sheik she controls neutral with her auto cancel aerial movement and paralyzer so you have to get in get the most optimal combo or kill setup and get out. Focus attack does a lot of work v ZSS however if youre are predictable she has all the tools to make it feel useless with her always dangerous conversion off grabs and good single hit frame data like up air. Ill touch a little on what I know about DI vs her, so down throw has a true setup no matter what you do but by mixing up between away and in you can force her to use forward air(if you di away from her after down throw) which has much less followup potential and cause her to mispace up air(if you DI towards her after down throw) as well as its possible to DI out of the her up B after you are caught by the first hit but Im not certain on which horizontal direction it is and if its only effective with smash DI. For pros firstly you kill her ridiculously early with true setups just like any other light character(the latest possible she can survive non stale true sweetspot shoryuken with DI is 80%! and even less on town and city) Also generally in all matchups for ZSS her grab is crazy punishable so spot dodge and rolling behind(considering ZSS can only hit behind herself with u tilt when grounded) are your friend though a great zss will get grab setups out of nair and paralzyer so space well for the nairs and always jump approach the paralyzer(also nair will destroy the paralyzer shot and continue your momentum if they cling). Lastly Ill add that nair to true shoryuken and weak fair to shoryuken is a true combo setup if you are having trouble setting it up off FA or tilts. Overall I'd say this is similar to sheik where we are gonna sweat the whole match in neutral but if we play smart we have just as much chance to win as she does since our hits themselves carry more weight than say 3 of hers so I'd say 50-50 give or take 5 maybe since Im still learning about the MU.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For the first time, Rosalina is analyzing Ryu at her sub-forum. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Ryu match-up, please head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/416753/

As for the directory thread itself...

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Rucent]

The Sonic Match Up Thread is currently discussing Sonic vs Ryu! We would love it if you gave us your input on the match up!

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...er-20-21-ness-ryu.390575/page-9#post-20200978

Thank you! :D

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Ryu players! The Marth and Lucina sub-forum has begun matchup discussion and analysis on the Ryu matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth/Lucina player for matchup experience, please join us at the following link.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-ryu-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.420266/

And be sure to check the directory thread for the rules and guidelines.

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-and-analysis-directory.414156/

 

[Scieric]

K so I'll start with Rosa. It looks fine enough, but with experience I hate it. When Luma is around, FA isn't viable

 

[HoodedAltair]

K so I'll start with Rosa. It looks fine enough, but with experience I hate it. When Luma is around, FA isn't viable

You can talk about that Mu on their thread. On this thread we are discussing ZSS, even though not much input lately

 

[Scieric]

ZSS? Hmm, I have loads of experience in the matchup, but I don't actually think we do all that well. We still get stunned in FA and she has that super long ranged grab and a huge multi hit up smash that can keep us in the air. Plus she's good on the stage that Ryu's good on so I can't really cp her. If I read grab though I can get some nice footstool combos. An example of that (against a really bad ZSS) can be found here.
https://youtu.be/W8L73HfE-54
Edit: Yes. I was fishing for it hard

 

[RoninX1819]

I have a lot of tournement experiance in this mu and I feel its even. Lets start off with the nuetral, at long range we can poke and set up with shaku hover and hadoken but her zair can poke threw it but we can shield and still land a projectile poke and its really a game of trades. In mediem range I feel its lightly in are favor because we dont have to commit as hard as zss for sheild poke and set ups but if she lands a grab we are going to pay for it hard. but if you see her go for a grab and you input Tsrk you will hit her out of the grab and this goes for all teather grabs, tested this with nakat. If she catches you in the air god help you. we do have some good landing mix ups with FADC. as for boxing range we win. you do want to watch out for her fast jab and uptilt but if you space with dtilts it beats both those options. the up tilt lock does work on her and Tsrk kills her at 72 no rage. so if she makes a mistake at 50 shes dead. her paralizer is another thing she has that we have to look out for because it sets up for some nasty set ups but if they are useing it a lot just power shield and grab or space with your own projectiles. as for air to air. she gets better and more deadly set ups then we do so I believe its in her favor but we can still trade with her air attacks. are fair beats her nair and up air. and her fair trades with Ryus. same with bair. off stage we can edge guard with tatsu, walk off nair, stage spike with bair. and ledge trumps. but when shes edge gaurding us she has that down b that if timed right can spike us out of are up b along with her other options so id say this is fairly even as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Its even. Both chars do terrible things to the other when a mistake is made. Both kill each other at low percents. ZSS neutral is slightly above average while Ryu's neutral is counter play so neutral isnt too much of a factor. Both get out of disadvantage well. Ryu is one of the few chars that gives ZSS pause when it comes to just relying on grabs as a crutch.

 

[DisidisiD]

but if you see her go for a grab and you input Tsrk you will hit her out of the grab and this goes for all teather grabs, tested this with nakat.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean because he has invincibility until the hitbox comes out so he can't be grabbed? or is there something else?

 

[Emblem Lord]

What do you mean by this? Do you mean because he has invincibility until the hitbox comes out so he can't be grabbed? or is there something else?

There you go

 

[HoodedAltair]

I have a lot of tournement experiance in this mu and I feel its even. Lets start off with the nuetral, at long range we can poke and set up with shaku hover and hadoken but her zair can poke threw it but we can shield and still land a projectile poke and its really a game of trades. In mediem range I feel its lightly in are favor because we dont have to commit as hard as zss for sheild poke and set ups but if she lands a grab we are going to pay for it hard. but if you see her go for a grab and you input Tsrk you will hit her out of the grab and this goes for all teather grabs, tested this with nakat. If she catches you in the air god help you. we do have some good landing mix ups with FADC. as for boxing range we win. you do want to watch out for her fast jab and uptilt but if you space with dtilts it beats both those options. the up tilt lock does work on her and Tsrk kills her at 72 no rage. so if she makes a mistake at 50 shes dead. her paralizer is another thing she has that we have to look out for because it sets up for some nasty set ups but if they are useing it a lot just power shield and grab or space with your own projectiles. as for air to air. she gets better and more deadly set ups then we do so I believe its in her favor but we can still trade with her air attacks. are fair beats her nair and up air. and her fair trades with Ryus. same with bair. off stage we can edge guard with tatsu, walk off nair, stage spike with bair. and ledge trumps. but when shes edge gaurding us she has that down b that if timed right can spike us out of are up b along with her other options so id say this is fairly even as well.

I share the same concern about the shoryuken out of tether grabs. Just tether grabs? I've been grabbed out of shoryuken in the frames before the hitbox on frame 6. It should be more powerful necessary though than another attack as an anti-grab. I still don't really know how the invincibility works with grab yet but I know I've been grabbed out of it before.

I agree with a lot of what you said. Though all aerials trade with aerials. No such thing as priority in the air.

Our nair can go right through their stun gun without giving a damn. Not tested on sour nair but I think the same effect.

Lastly, like emblem said, they both get out of disadvantage easier than others....just think that's an important point.

At the moment I also agree it's 50/50 without having played the MU extensively myself

Thank you fine people for helping with this MU! Too long this thread has been quiet

 

[Scieric]

Is it possible to FA out of the up airs? Or does the 2nd one come out too fast?
EDIT: I currently see the ZSS matchup as a 3:2 in favour of ZSS. Simply because we don't have many good options staying out of grab range. Sure, Shakunetsu is good and all, but if we can't convert off it then it's almost useless. Aerial approaches would become predictable and grabbable. So we wouldn't be able to do any damage. If we can convert into some nice setups with Shakunetsu, then by all means we win. So I'd just like to know what we can get out of that.
EDIT 2: Uhh guys? Have you all got leprosy? You're not saying anything.

 

[Fyore]

Yes it is possible to FA out of the upairs (in my experience), you just need to dash away before the second one comes out. I like to dash in the opposite direction that ZSS is moving in the air, ie: ZSS is moving right to left Ryu dashes right, and vice versa.

 

[WispBae]

Hey there you hunks of men you!

(Those muscles!! *squeal!!* <3)

The Doggy forums are currently discussing this MU and would love you input on it!

Click on SFV Ryu or whatever this is to uppercut your way over!

(clothing optional! <3)

 

[RoninX1819]

We can convert a lot out of Shaku dude lol look up hoodeds shaku hover video. this is something I use in this mu a lot

 

[Scieric]

I've seen it. So how reliable is it? I want to know it's on-block advantage. Cause if they can just keep shielding it then we have no real advantage.

 

[meleebrawler]

I've seen it. So how reliable is it? I want to know it's on-block advantage. Cause if they can just keep shielding it then we have no real advantage.

Well if it's a light (slow) shakunetsu and they block it near the end of it's range you'll get a lot of time.

 

[HoodedAltair]

Yes it is possible to FA out of the upairs (in my experience), you just need to dash away before the second one comes out. I like to dash in the opposite direction that ZSS is moving in the air, ie: ZSS is moving right to left Ryu dashes right, and vice versa.

It's not possible. Uairs with ZSS are true combos. If it's true, there's no 1 frame window to use either move. The up b links to together. We rely on good mixup DI for this one

 

[HoodedAltair]

Is it possible to FA out of the up airs? Or does the 2nd one come out too fast?
EDIT: I currently see the ZSS matchup as a 3:2 in favour of ZSS. Simply because we don't have many good options staying out of grab range. Sure, Shakunetsu is good and all, but if we can't convert off it then it's almost useless. Aerial approaches would become predictable and grabbable. So we wouldn't be able to do any damage. If we can convert into some nice setups with Shakunetsu, then by all means we win. So I'd just like to know what we can get out of that.
EDIT 2: Uhh guys? Have you all got leprosy? You're not saying anything.

And yes you can most certainly convert off of shakunetsu....that's not really the issue. Shakunetsu not only has combo followups but massive sheild damage which exerts our pressure on ZSS. Controlling speeds lets us control space which means we have decent control over far range in neutral. It's not like these are wall characters. ZSS and Ryu games will be fast paced with lots of action. Either characters needs one move to rack up a ton of damage or combo until death.

 

[Scieric]

It's not possible. Uairs with ZSS are true combos. If it's true, there's no 1 frame window to use either move. The up b links to together. We rely on good mixup DI for this one

Well that kinda sucks. I want to be immune to EVERYTHING! But it's fine. I'll just DI down-away. Usually works for me.

And yes you can most certainly convert off of shakunetsu....that's not really the issue. Shakunetsu not only has combo followups but massive sheild damage which exerts our pressure on ZSS. Controlling speeds lets us control space which means we have decent control over far range in neutral. It's not like these are wall characters. ZSS and Ryu games will be fast paced with lots of action. Either characters needs one move to rack up a ton of damage or combo until death.

Speaking of combos until death, I find that utilt completely destroys ZSS. I dunno if it's just bad players or what but ZSS seems to be the perfect weight and fall speed to get trapped real easy. I actually find FD to be a pretty god CP stage against ZSS. I've always liked FD anyway but now ZSS doesn't have any platforms to help her out plus she's gotta land eventually. True SRK can kill damn early with enough rage. Just don't throw it out raw. You'll get punished. Only use it when it's guaranteed. Then you
A. Won't get punished
and B. Can use True Held SRK for maximum kill power.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Awesome match. Fun match. Dead even imo. Mistakes end in huge damage or death. High risk high reward stuff on both sides. ZSS grab gives her a huge threat option during footsies, but if she misses shes dead.

Just so much fun on both sides.

Dead even imo

 

[Scieric]

I feel like Ryu is the Melee Falco of this game. Doesn't really lose to anyone but way more even matches than #1 (in our case sheik).
The sole exception being Rosa. But that's for another time.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu is NOT Melee Falco. Thats an insult.

Melee Falco earned NOTHING and gained MONSTROUS reward.

Ryu is mostly counter play and knowing exactly what to do.

Falco was abusing 2 or 3 amazingly broken options to completely dominate neutral with virtually no risk to himself.

UGH