SWF Official "Team Breakers" Discussion

[ss118]

What exactly is a "Team Breaker", you may ask? Think about it: what does a "stall breaker" do? Breaks stall, perhaps? Or rather, they remove a single member from the opposing team so that something else has an easier time. A commonly used stall breaker is Infernape.

Infernape @ Life Orb
Blaze: Naive
64 Attack, 192 Speed, 252 Sp. Attack
Fire Blast/ Flamethrower
Close Combat
Grass Knot
Hidden Power [Ice]

You look at most stall teams and you realize that they generally have a huuuge problem with this Infernape. Close Combat holds the entire set from being walled by Blissey, while the other three moves provide the main attacking force in powerful STAB(Fire move) and general coverage. Most defensive teams, even with designated checks, have difficulties taking this on for extended periods of time. Common checks on stall include Starmie, Tentacruel, and Gyarados. Pokemon such as Cresselia full-blown counter the set: but then you could just run Scizor or something and be completely fine.

So that's a "stall" breaker. This entire thread will be a discussion for different types of "team breakers". That is, pokemon sets that give particular teams trouble. Anyone who has run a fully offensive team(with nothing but pure-attackers) has probably had trouble with this little cutie:

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb: Bold
188 HP, 252 Defense, 68 Sp. Defense
Surf
Wish
Protect
Roar/ Hidden Power [Electric]/ Toxic

Bulky waters are the bane of offensive teams: in fact, the entire idea behind an offensive team might as well be "remove the bulky water and sweep". While teams abuse things like Grass Knot and Explosion to bypass these obstacles, Vaporeon is an entirely different story: her method of recovery with Wish+Protect makes it very difficult to rely on exploding on her, and makes her very difficult to KO in general. Roar is the primary option because it helps with offensive teams that stat-up while helping against other teams by revealing members and possibly spreading around residual damage. Let's take the following scenario:

*Person has Blissey out, uses Wish as Person 2 bring in Infernape.*
*Person retreats Blissey for Gyarados, Infernape uses GK and Gyarados recovers up.*
*Infernape retreats as Vaporeon comes in. Gyarados will generally DD/ Waterfall.*
*Vaporeon Roars as something(Zapdos, for example) comes in, Lucario is brought in.*

Thus we end up with full HP Lucario vs full HP Vaporeon. If it was HP Electric or Toxic there would be nothing to fear as he SDed and KO: what he does have to fear is Roar. So he WOULD CC, but the Vaporeon walls him completely. If it Surfs as it CCs, Lucario dies. If Vaporeon Wishes as it CCs, then Lucario does nothing as the power is in the Vaporeon user's hands to either Protect for full recovery, Surf for a KO, or Roar. Of course, if Lucario SDs as Vaporeon protects then it loses. But that's why Vaporeon is most dangerous against teams that DON'T stat up. Besides, if Vaporeon is your best answer to SD Lucario then you deserve to get swept by it. That's just an example to show how it can truly be a headache to offensive teams.

You know "hyper offense" that was considered so cheap a while back? Starmie and Scarfed Jirachi are great "HO Breakers", because of their speed combined with either power, wide coverage, hax, or a combination of them.

So feel free to list Team Breakers for different kinds of teams! If you need help thinking of different teams, feel free to take a look at a list of random ones I compiled below.

Spoiler

Stall, Semi-stall, Balance, Hyper Offense, Bulky Offense, Offense, Rain Dance, Sandstorm, Sunny Day, Hail, Trick Room, Gravity, Baton Pass

 

[Pink Reaper]

Stall teams have become very Vaporeon friendly recently Art, Nape gets walled hard by it.

I would be willing to say

Rotom-H@Choice Scarf
Timid/Levitate
252Hp/252Spe/4SpAtk
-Toxic
-Trick
-Overheat
-Thunderbolt

makes for a good stall breaker. Trick absolutely cripples most stall teams as does the move Toxic, destroying the core of healers on a stall team(blissey/Vaporeon) Overheat does terrible things to the ever common steels. Thunderbolt allows it to keep some utility as a DDGyara counter.

 

[Fuelbi]

Might as well as post this up for the Baton Pass breaker

Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roar

As you can see, with Roar, Swampert can break down any Baton Pass team from the very beginning (well, if you use it as a lead anyways). I should know, I've done it a million times with this guy

 

[Gates]

Might as well as post this up for the Baton Pass breaker

Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roar

As you can see, with Roar, Swampert can break down any Baton Pass team from the very beginning (well, if you use it as a lead anyways). I should know, I've done it a million times with this guy

What if they pass to Mr. Mime?

 

[ss118]

Or what if they run things like Taunt on Gliscor, Ingrain on Smeargle, or even if they run roar on their pokemon that's faster? Which most of them will, by the way.

Infernape was just used as an example of a wall breaker because that's the stereotype given to it, generally. A much better wall breaker atm is:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Flash Fire: Timid
4 HP, 252 Speed, 252 Sp. Attack
Fire Blast
Earth Power
Hidden Power [Electric/ Grass]
Taunt

Basically choose between Gyarados or Swampert as your counter. This benefits immensely from SR+SS, as it allows you to better take advantage of pokemon like Blissey who might continuously try coming into you. Otherwise, spam Fire Blast and other attacks until stall dies. If they lose Blissey and the bulky water(which you have approx a 50% chance of beating anyway), you win. Tentacruel and Vaporeon gives you problems regardless of the HP you choose: but that's why SR+SS is reccommended.

 

[Gates]

I didn't suggest Ingrain Smeargle because if the Swampert player Roars on the turn they pass the chain will be broken anyway.

 

[Wave⁂]

Or what if they run things like Taunt on Gliscor, Ingrain on Smeargle, or even if they run roar on their pokemon that's faster? Which most of them will, by the way.

Infernape was just used as an example of a wall breaker because that's the stereotype given to it, generally. A much better wall breaker atm is:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Flash Fire: Timid
4 HP, 252 Speed, 252 Sp. Attack
Fire Blast
Earth Power
Hidden Power [Electric/ Grass]
Taunt

Basically choose between Gyarados or Swampert as your counter. This benefits immensely from SR+SS, as it allows you to better take advantage of pokemon like Blissey who might continuously try coming into you. Otherwise, spam Fire Blast and other attacks until stall dies. If they lose Blissey and the bulky water(which you have approx a 50% chance of beating anyway), you win. Tentacruel and Vaporeon gives you problems regardless of the HP you choose: but that's why SR+SS is reccommended.

Why do you have Taunt? I don't see many advantages to Taunting stuff when you could just blast it away with Fire Blast.

 

[Riddle]

So Blissey cant heal up things I'd assume

 

[Wave⁂]

Blissey will heal up you. And by "heal up" I mean kill with Seismic Toss

 

[Zankoku]

I've always found Perish Song Celebi to be the most effective way of killing Baton Pass chains and/or pHazing. It's especially funny to use after they've Ingrained.


Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Perish Song
- Recover
- Grass Knot
- U-turn/Reflect/Heal Bell

Perish Song is awesome because it beats things like Suction Cups (Cradily) and Ingrain that Whirlwind and Roar would normally fail on. Recover lets Celebi keep herself in for as long as necessary before the Perish Song takes effect. Grass Knot is a nice STAB for when you just want to deal damage, and is a solid 3HKO on Gyarados.

U-turn is for a more universal pHazing set, as it lets you switch to an appropriate counter on turn 3 on their switch-in (or against their attack, if they chose to sacrifice). Reflect lets you set up some defenses before pulling out. Heal Bell lets you pull double-duty as a cleric.

Obviously don't send Celebi in against an Umbreon or a Ninjask unless you're feeling lucky.

 

[ss118]

Taunt is mainly there for being a generally awesome move as well as a mindgame. While blissey does beat you with seismic toss, likely it won't be the first thing they use. I personally have a gengar in the back(with Taunt, as well), so Blissey is double-screwed. Taunt also helps on things such as Vaporeon: they have to choose to attack as you Taunt or heal as you attack. In SS and with SR up, the wrong choice will cost them dearly, leaving them open to Infernape. Or Gyarados. Or a LOT of things. I guess it would be best to use a combination of Hippowdon/Heatran/Infernape to get SR+SS going. That Gyarados I mentioned would do well on the team, so we're at Hippowdon/Heatran/Infernape/Gyarados. Throw in Gengar and some grass type and you should be ******.

 

[Wave⁂]

Speaking of Gyarados, the Rest Talk variant is probably my second favorite Pokémon in OU. SubWave Jirachi wins first, though.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Heracross @ Flame Orb
Guts / Adamant
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 SpD
~Swords Dance
~Close Combat
~Megahorn
~Facade

I've been using this guy a lot recently, and I quickly found out that any stall team that lacks a Ghost pretty much gets torn through like tissue paper by this guy. With one turn of setup, his attack stat goes from 383 to a whopping 1,149 thanks to SD + Guts activation. And he also can switch into status, which gives him many opportunities to switch in on stall teams (something the almighty Infernape can't even brag about).

Thanks to the boost, the majority of the common counters expecting a Scarfed Close Combat are easily OHKOed: Gliscor, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Forry, Bronzong, and the bulky Waters (even bulky Gyra w/o SR damage). Of course, that's not even the full list of walls Heracross tears through. Those were examples.

Easily one of the best stall breakers in the current metagame.

 

[Zankoku]

Would it lose too much attack running Jolly? It would potentially allow it to outspeed Adamant Lucarios and defensive Rotom-As, which might help out in not making it dead weight against balance or offensive teams (though an Infernape would still easily revenge it, among other things)

 

[The Real Gamer]

I was using Jolly for a while but I kept losing a lot of the above mentioned crucial OHKOs.

 

[Riddle]

I've been using this guy a lot recently, and I quickly found out that any stall team that lacks a Ghost pretty much gets torn through like tissue paper by this guy.

I quickly found out that any stall team that lacks a Ghost pretty much gets torn through

stall team that lacks a Ghost

lo l

 

[The Real Gamer]

Har har har Riddle.

AFTER a stall team's ghost is gone (aka Rotom), it opens up Heracross to sweep.

 

[Gates]

But then it wouldn't just be a team breaker on its own since you'd need TTar or Gengar to support it by killing Rotom.

 

[The Real Gamer]

If Rotom is really an issue then Night Slash could always be replaced by Facade, but then you lose some OHKOs on some of the normal counters... It's give or take.

Plus there isn't such a Pokemon as a complete team breaker is there? Like the Infernape SS showed could easily be stopped by Vappy, for example.

 

[Deleted member]

admittedly, I often think of Metagross, Tyranitar, and Suicune as "OU breakers".

 

[9Kplus1]

Kingdra (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 28 HP/228 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse
- Signal Beam
---

In all honesty, SpecsDra is incredible in this meta. By spamming Draco, it becomes pretty easy to bring down FWG cores, paving the way for something along the lines of a Gyarados sweep. Hydro Pump eliminates most Steels, Heatran, and anything that doesn't resist it (or doesn't go by the name of Blissey for that matter) while Dragon Pulse nets KOes on Gyarados and opposing Kingdra without the trolling accuracy and the SAtk drops. Signal Beam is mostly filler, but it gives better coverage than Surf (wanted to go HP Electric, but Empoleon can survive anyway and just Agility >_>)

 

[Gates]

Why use Signal Beam when you can use [Naive] Outrage?

Why use Swift Swim when you can use Sniper?

Why use Hydro Pump when you can use Surf?

Why have this thread when it's basically a slightly less optimal version of Rate My Moveset?

 

[Zankoku]

Well, up until 9K's set, everything's been standard choices.

Even then, 9K's set is very similar to the standard Specs Kingdra..

Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse

On not using Signal Beam:
Dragon and Water hits everyone in OU except Empoleon for neutral damage, so there is no reason to use any other attacks other than STAB for this set.

On less speed EVs:
The EVs on the set allow Kingdra to outspeed Adamant Lucario, Jolly Mamoswine and Adamant Gyarados before a Dragon Dance, which gives Kingdra a chance to defeat them before they wreak havoc. It is important to note that the preferred ability on this set is Swift Swim, because a Timid Kingdra with 286 Speed outspeeds everything commonly seen on a Rain Dance team, and other Kingdra almost never run +Speed nature thanks to Dragon Dance and Rain Dance.


btw, Signal Beam supers Dark, Grass, and Psychic for 150 but gets resisted by Fire, Fighting, Flying, Ghost, Poison, and Steel. Dragon Pulse hits Dark, Grass, and Psychic neutrally for 135, and hits Fire, Fighting, Ghost, and Poison neutrally likewise, only resisted by Steel. Surf hits Dark and Psychic neutrally for 142.5, also hitting Fighting, Flying, Ghost, Poison, and Steel neutrally, while supering Fire, and only being resisted by Grass out of the coverage that Signal Beam might bring.

 

[Wave⁂]

224 Speed EVs outspeeds Jolly Gyara. There's not much faster than Jolly Gyara that you can and should worry about. Max speed ties you with Suicune, Heracross, and other Kingdra.

 

[9Kplus1]

Why use Signal Beam when you can use [Naive] Outrage?

Because you don't make yourself Heatran bait. There's also better coverage on Celebi and the "rare" Cresselia, but that moveslot is mostly filler.

Why use Swift Swim when you can use Sniper?

In order to gimp Rain Dance teams

Why use Hydro Pump when you can use Surf?

OHKOing Skarmory and physically defensive Forrteress

Why have this thread when it's basically a slightly less optimal version of Rate My Moveset?

This thread has an entirely different concept going for it. To put it simply, this thread focuses on non-theorymon attempts at breaking down common teams in OU, rather than boasting a ****storm of sets saying "oh, this is creative and can beat X and Y given the right conditions".

Well, up until 9K's set, everything's been standard choices.

Even then, 9K's set is very similar to the standard Specs Kingdra..

Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse

The EVs on the set allow Kingdra to outspeed Adamant Lucario, Jolly Mamoswine and Adamant Gyarados before a Dragon Dance, which gives Kingdra a chance to defeat them before they wreak havoc. It is important to note that the preferred ability on this set is Swift Swim, because a Timid Kingdra with 286 Speed outspeeds everything commonly seen on a Rain Dance team, and other Kingdra almost never run +Speed nature thanks to Dragon Dance and Rain Dance.

I'm not objecting any arguments against using Signal Beam just because of Kingdra's limited movepool; however, Signal Beam has given me great coverage on Celebi, who can come in on most of SpecsDra's moveset. The Speed EVs beat every Pokemon found on Rain Dance teams, beating Jolly Gyarados is just a bonus.

 

[Zankoku]

Using 252 SAtk Timid Kingdra vs 252 HP / 0 SDef Bold Celebi:
Draco Meteor: 68.3% - 80.4%
-2 Draco Meteor: 34.2% - 40.3%
Total in 2 turns, subtracting 6.25% for Leftovers recovery: 92.25% - 114.45%; 103.35% (SR: 104.75% - 126.95%; 115.85%)
Chance of two consecutive Draco Meteor hits: 72.25%

Dragon Pulse: 44.1% - 52.0%
Total in 2 turns, subtracting 6.25% for Leftovers recovery: 81.95% - 97.75%; 89.85% (SR: 94.45% - 110.25%; 102.35%)

In short, you pretty much have to miss to not 2HKO Celebi with two Meteors, or, if you have Stealth Rock up, roll fairly low damage twice in a row with Dragon Pulse. You can claim that it's more important to OHKO Celebi, and I won't necessarily dispute that; however, after the fact, Kingdra is in a much more favorable position locked into STAB Dragon Pulse than it is locked into Signal Beam. Again, you're also not really doing yourself any favors using Signal Beam against 2x weakness types either - hell, it doesn't even OHKO Weavile.

 

[UltiMario]

I'd like to mention that saying that last part didn't help your logic, seeing as with only SR in play, Signal beam does nab the OHKO while Dragon Pulse or Surf can somehow manage to miss it on occasion. Shocking, I know.

 

[Zankoku]

Not like I said I disagree with OHKOing a Celebi being important, but I still don't like locking into a 75 power move that has a lot of common resistances (Gyarados flies, Heatran is like #1 now, FIGHTING STEEL Lucario anyone?)

 

[ss118]

The kingdra set seems really interesting: I like how it keeps Heatran(and most steels) at bay with STAB water attacks while pounding away with Draco Meteor on the opponent's primary core. I'd honestly use it with Blissey+Gyarados to ensure that even if someone runs Empoleon I don't get ****ed over.

Also I think Heracross is one of the best Stall-breakers still. Especially since people use Toxic Spikes commonly, I just use a semi-bulky one with SD and Leftovers. I commonly use it with Dual Dancing Kingdra so that it can negate SS damage and optimize Leftovers, while also negating a fire weakness for a very short time.

A great think about my Heracross is that it's an anti-stall-breaker, while also being useful as an end-game sweeper for stall teams in general. I'll post the general set once I get to a computer. I know it beat Jolly Gyarados and had a good bit of bulk with the rest poured into attack with CC, Megahorn, SE, and SD. I guess Bulk Up could be an option, but it really is not necessary to have the defense boosts. The attack boosts are necessary, though.

 

[Wave⁂]

The only benefit of Signal Beam over Outrage is that you can switch after using it. It's useless outside of OHKOing Celebi.

 

[Gates]

Because you don't make yourself Heatran bait. There's also better coverage on Celebi and the "rare" Cresselia, but that moveslot is mostly filler.

If you lock yourself into Outrage, you are Heatran bait yes. But if you lock yourself into Signal Beam, you're still Heatran bait. Why worry about Heatran specifically anyway? I'm guessing because of Dragon Pulse, but how many Heatran run that now?

In order to gimp Rain Dance teams

This seems incredibly situational. How many Rain Dance teams are you facing that the extra speed would be better than having better crits against the whole metagame.

OHKOing Skarmory and physically defensive Forrteress

Fair enough. I mostly just wanted to know what you were using it against.

This thread has an entirely different concept going for it. To put it simply, this thread focuses on non-theorymon attempts at breaking down common teams in OU, rather than boasting a ****storm of sets saying "oh, this is creative and can beat X and Y given the right conditions".

lol this thread is Theorymon by definition.

I'm not objecting any arguments against using Signal Beam just because of Kingdra's limited movepool; however, Signal Beam has given me great coverage on Celebi, who can come in on most of SpecsDra's moveset.

ok, I haven't been paying much attention to Pokemon in the last few weeks, but is Celebi that much of a threat in OU now? And like Ankoku said, how can she come in on Specs Draco Meteor safely without an extremely high investment in HP and SpD?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Also I think Heracross is one of the best Stall-breakers still. Especially since people use Toxic Spikes commonly, I just use a semi-bulky one with SD and Leftovers. I commonly use it with Dual Dancing Kingdra so that it can negate SS damage and optimize Leftovers, while also negating a fire weakness for a very short time.

A great think about my Heracross is that it's an anti-stall-breaker, while also being useful as an end-game sweeper for stall teams in general. I'll post the general set once I get to a computer. I know it beat Jolly Gyarados and had a good bit of bulk with the rest poured into attack with CC, Megahorn, SE, and SD. I guess Bulk Up could be an option, but it really is not necessary to have the defense boosts. The attack boosts are necessary, though.

Yeah Heracross is still a very good Pokemon to have on almost any team thanks to the prevalence of stall teams...

But how can you break through stall by running Jolly (assuming), Leftovers, and Stone Edge? You miss a lot of OHKOs. I'm just curious.

 

[Wave⁂]

Celebi and Shaymin have risen in usage a crapton. In the Suspect ladder in June:

| 18 | Celebi | 4181 | 13.12 |
| 21 | Shaymin | 3661 | 11.49 |

Kingdra's Sniper boosts Surf's average base power of...

95 * 0.9375 + 190 * 0.0625 = 11.875 + 89.0625 = 100.9375
...to...
95 * 0.9375 + 285 * 0.0625 = 17.8125 + 89.0625 = 106.875

...giving Kingdra a roughly 6.4% attack boost. When you factor in that most of that crit damage is wasted on overkill...

Standard Specs Swift Swim Kingdra's critical Surf vs. min / min neutral nature Starmie: 81.6% - 96.6%
Standard Specs Sniper Kingdra's critical Surf vs. min / min neutral nature Starmie: 123% - 144.8%

It's not really worth it.


On the other hand, prevalence of Rain Dance teams...

| Azelf | Move | Explosion | 71.5 |
| Azelf | Move | Stealth Rock | 65.7 |
| Azelf | Move | Psychic | 48.4 |
| Azelf | Move | Taunt | 39.1 |
| Azelf | Move | Flamethrower | 26.4 |
| Azelf | Move | Fire Blast | 24.6 |
| Azelf | Move | U-turn | 24.6 |
| Azelf | Move | Grass Knot | 16.9 |
| Azelf | Move | Trick | 10.7 |
| Azelf | Move | Nasty Plot | 9.5 |
| Azelf | Move | Zen Headbutt | 9.2 |
| Azelf | Move | Reflect | 8.2 |
| Azelf | Move | Other (11) | < 7.7 |

Rain Lead Azelfs are so uncommon they don't show up on usage statistics.

| Bronzong | Usage | 68184 | 6.8 |
| Bronzong | Move | Rain Dance | 12.7 |

Roughly 0.8636% of all teams are Rain Dance-based.

tl;dr they're both pretty much useless.

 

[ss118]

Yeah Heracross is still a very good Pokemon to have on almost any team thanks to the prevalence of stall teams...

But how can you break through stall by running Jolly (assuming), Leftovers, and Stone Edge? You miss a lot of OHKOs. I'm just curious.

considering it being poisoned with a SD, it will triple my attack stat. Yours does the same: except with mine I'm bulky enough to get a 2nd SD. In cases where it wouldn't be a good idea to SD again, usually I can just KO them straight up. Looking at common stall pokemon, you have an easy time getting an SD against Blissey, Skarmory, forretress, rotom(still problematic), glicor(beware of Aerial Ace), Hippowdon, Swampert, Gyarados(Rest talk ones, anyway), Tentacruel, spiritomb, zapdos(stall usually won't run enough speed to beat you), Celebi(unless some super-fast one with Psychic), and many, many others.

 

[Gates]

tl;dr they're both pretty much useless.

Pretty much. Kingdra is the unfortunate case of a good pokemon having 2 "useless" abilities (with one being almost completely useless and the other being highly situational.

However,

Roughly 0.8636% of all teams are Rain Dance-based.

Compare this with the fact that the average critical hit rate of 1/16 (6.25%) applies and you'll find that Sniper comes into play marginally more than Swift Swim.

 

[Zankoku]

Kingdra is better at shutting down Rain Dance teams on its own with Swift Swim.

 

[Wave⁂]

Compare this with the fact that the average critical hit rate of 1/16 (6.25%) applies and you'll find that Sniper comes into play marginally more than Swift Swim.

Think of it this way:

Would you rather have crits deal 1,000,000,000% damage, or an ability that boosts the power of your moves by 10%? The crit ability might do more damage on average, but most of that damage is wasted.

 

[Gates]

Kingdra is better at shutting down Rain Dance teams on its own with Swift Swim.

Did you miss the part where we found out that Rain Dance teams are less than 1% of the metagame?

Think of it this way:

Would you rather have crits deal 1,000,000,000% damage, or an ability that boosts the power of your moves by 10%? The crit ability might do more damage on average, but most of that damage is wasted.

I don't understand you're comparison because it's not relevant to this situation. I understand that you're trying to argue that an ability that increases crit damage is near useless, but Kingdra's other ability doesn't help his damage output (aside from the normal boost from rain), it helps his speed. You're ultimately comparing apples to oranges here.

Anyway, this discussion on nature matters little to the OU metagame. Moveset choice and nature are bigger concerns. Now if this were Ubers Swift Swim would win easily since 52% of all teams have a rain inducer in Kyogre. But outside of Ubers, rain really isn't a factor and generally isn't even a viable strategy.

 

[ss118]

You could runs something random with rain dance and just use Kingdra to the side.

 

[9Kplus1]

Having a trump card against Rain Dance teams is better than critting something that would've died anyway. Kingdra isn't going to be staying in for long anyway .-.