Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Wintermelon43]

Was referring to wario but falco could get smore buffs

I really want to hear why you think falco should go down. The buffs made falcos combo abilty and options absurd.

Falco'a probably still low tier, since he's slow and laggy. sure, he has better recovery than Fox, but everything else is worse, he is REALLY laggy and pretty slow. Mainly, hugh amounts of end-lag and startup (Espicially startup)

 

[PsiPax]

Falco'a probably still low tier, since he's slow and laggy. sure, he has better recovery than Fox, but everything else is worse, he is REALLY laggy and pretty slow. Mainly, hugh amounts of end-lag and startup (Espicially startup)

About to disagree with you then saw who you were. Respect points to wintermelon43
+1 wintermelon43

 

[wedl!!]

rosa as the best character in the game nice joke fam haha XD

-1
+1
+1

 

[Browny]

A few things;

Rosalina can not go down more than 1 tier no matter how many downvotes she gets and Sheik cant go up more than 1, those rules are in place to stop knee-jerk reactions on the top and bottom two tiers of this list.

If people vote more than 3 characters, I just ignore everything beyond the first three. People here don't have to be 'that guy' all the time to remind them every time it happens, people should learn for themselves.

 

[ZetaRokure]

+1 (I believe this spot is about accurate...)

-1 (???) Above Sheik...what? I don't even need to... I must assume that this is an oversight catalyzed by an influx of Rosa voters.

+1 (Rosa logic applies.)

I do not desire to play devil's advocate, but this system is absolutely flawed in practice: as a concept, a standard system of upvotes/downvotes appears effective, but this does not factor in a basic flaw that plagues this tierlist. It is not directly in part to the system itself, but the mindset of a voter. Individuals upvote/downvote characters they deem fundamentally formidable, rather than factoring in their status in the meta.

For example, if one were to create a similar system and apply it to my top 15:


with the votes of 8 average users combined...

Ness-3
Wario- 4
Lucario +1
Yoshi+3
Rosa+4
Villager - 3
Pikachu+4
Mario +1


The list would be, assuming
1 tier = - 2 spots and
1 tier = + 2 spots


This utterly misrepresents the meta, and wastes 7 votes due to exceeding the threshold or falling short.

 

[IndigoSSB]

+
-Obvious reasons. Rosalina wouldn't be so highly thought of if dabuz didn't exist.
-Sorry to pika mains, but i feel like he, along with rosalina, belong with the group in tier 3. The order within the tiers are going to be discussed later, but for now I think we can agree that pika and rosa don't need a whole tier for themselves.

 

[Zionaze]

Falco'a probably still low tier, since he's slow and laggy. sure, he has better recovery than Fox, but everything else is worse, he is REALLY laggy and pretty slow. Mainly, hugh amounts of end-lag and startup (Espicially startup)

But his frame data is one of the best in the game :v

 

[SpottedCerberus]

+1 The fact that a Wii Fit Trainer got in the Top 25 at EVO Singles over all the Characters in Tier 5 and half the characters in Tier 4 should say something. She should at least be Tier 5.

This actually isn't a customs list. (Not criticizing your vote. Just informing you, in case you weren't aware.)

 

[shane3x]

Rosa +1
Robin +1
Wario -1

 

[warionumbah2]

A string is basically a escapable "combo", with proper DI or Airdodging you can escape strings but the attacker still has a advantage, the only difference between a string and a combo is that you can't ever escape a combo, and for that reason most combos in smash are technically strings.

His Uair strings are actual true combo's, you can't mash out of it, you can't jump out of it, no frame 3 Nair will save you because its all true combo's.

People call it Uair strings because it sounds cool(?) but its actually dubbed: Uair combo's.

 

[Benoas]

+
-
+

 

[Browny]

+1 (I believe this spot is about accurate...)

-1 (???) Above Sheik...what? I don't even need to... I must assume that this is an oversight catalyzed by an influx of Rosa voters.

+1 (Rosa logic applies.)

I do not desire to play devil's advocate, but this system is absolutely flawed in practice: as a concept, a standard system of upvotes/downvotes appears effective, but this does not factor in a basic flaw that plagues this tierlist. It is not directly in part to the system itself, but the mindset of a voter. Individuals upvote/downvote characters they deem fundamentally formidable, rather than factoring in their status in the meta.

For example, if one were to create a similar system and apply it to my top 15:


with the votes of 8 average users combined...

Ness-3
Wario- 4
Lucario +1
Yoshi+3
Rosa+4
Villager - 3
Pikachu+4
Mario +1


The list would be, assuming
1 tier = - 2 spots and
1 tier = + 2 spots


This utterly misrepresents the meta, and wastes 7 votes due to exceeding the threshold or falling short.

Your theory would be correct if only a few votes were counted, this is precisely the reason why I wait so long between updates. I'm happy that people take the time to express their thoughts on my method, so I'll explain.

In a typical voting period, the majority of characters dont get enough votes to move at all. Out of 53 characters, usually no more than about 15 will move and their votes will look like this

Luigi -1 -1 -1 -1 +1 -1 -1 -1 -1 (-7)
metaknight +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 (+9)
pikachu +1 -1 -1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 (+4)

While yes, many users vote on their mains or characters they think are strong while not factoring in worldwide results etc, there still needs to be a consensus on this and that is very rare by having so many votes. At no time are the votes wasted because I need to set a high bar for them to qualify to move to counter the usual suspects voting the same character every week. I can have 3 people who always vote Lucina up every week because shes their waifu, by setting a +4 minimum it ensures that characters very rarely ever move due to a few people voting up a character unopposed. I can't simply set the threshold to 1 because then youll get characters like Kirby constantly going up a tier because one person votes him up every single time, it would be impossible to keep him down due to just one person. (Wintermelon43 I appreciate your enthusiasm in this thread, but you really are a prime example of what I'm talking about. Don't stop voting for who you want though, vote kirby every week forever for all I care, the rules allow it)

If metaknight gets 9 votes, 5 of those votes arent wasted because that helps him in his place when moving up the tier. Any character in the same tier as metaknight that gets say, +7 votes will move below him. This is how characters are loosely ranked within tiers and it stops characters from jumping up and down the tier list. As you can imagine, there is a very big difference between the top of tier 2 and the bottom of tier 3.

The excess votes you talk about help me order characters within tiers and help keep characters in place by negating the opinions of a few blind fanboys/girls and requiring a consensus to move them.

If I cut the voting periods short a significant amount of people would miss a chance to vote as this thread is quite popular. If I lowered the threshold, the list would be utter chaos with characters moving up and down non stop. I need the threshold to allow characters to settle. Just look at pit and dark pit. Those two were bouncing around all over the place for weeks on end but now they have settled thanks to the threshold, it is highly unlikely that there is going to be a consensus anytime soon to move one up/down a tier but leave the other where it is.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Your theory would be correct if only a few votes were counted, this is precisely the reason why I wait so long between updates. I'm happy that people take the time to express their thoughts on my method, so I'll explain.

In a typical voting period, the majority of characters dont get enough votes to move at all. Out of 53 characters, usually no more than about 15 will move and their votes will look like this

Luigi -1 -1 -1 -1 +1 -1 -1 -1 -1 (-7)
metaknight +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 (+9)
pikachu +1 -1 -1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 (+4)

While yes, many users vote on their mains or characters they think are strong while not factoring in worldwide results etc, there still needs to be a consensus on this and that is very rare by having so many votes. At no time are the votes wasted because I need to set a high bar for them to qualify to move to counter the usual suspects voting the same character every week. I can have 3 people who always vote Lucina up every week because shes their waifu, by setting a +4 minimum it ensures that characters very rarely ever move due to a few people voting up a character unopposed. I can't simply set the threshold to 1 because then youll get characters like Kirby constantly going up a tier because one person votes him up every single time, it would be impossible to keep him down due to just one person. (wintermelon I appreciate your enthusiasm in this thread, but you really are a prime example of what I'm talking about. Dont stop voting for who you want though, vote kirby every week forever for all I care, the rules allow it)

If metaknight gets 9 votes, 5 of those votes arent wasted because that helps him in his place when moving up the tier. Any character in the same tier as metaknight that gets say, +7 votes will move below him. This is how characters are loosely ranked within tiers and it stops characters from jumping up and down the tier list. As you can imagine, there is a very big difference between the top of tier 2 and the bottom of tier 3.

The excess votes you talk about help me order characters within tiers and help keep characters in place by negating the opinions of a few blind fanboys/girls and requiring a consensus to move them.

If I cut the voting periods short a significant amount of people would miss a chance to vote as this thread is quite popular. If I lowered the threshold, the list would be utter chaos with characters moving up and down non stop. I need the threshold to allow characters to settle. Just look at pit and dark pit. Those two were bouncing around all over the place for weeks on end but now they have settled thanks to the threshold, it is highly unlikely that there is going to be a consensus anytime soon to move one up/down a tier but leave the other where it is.

...serisualy. Kirby OBVISUALY isn't THIS bad, that's why I'm voting him up every time

Edit:Sorry if I took that the wrong way, I'm not sure

 

[Toon612Link]

-1What goes up must come down.
-1
+1

 

[shane3x]

...serisualy. Kirby OBVISUALY isn't THIS bad, that's why I'm voting him up every time

Edit:Sorry if I took that the wrong way, I'm not sure

What happened to Kirby SS Tier? =p

 

[Wintermelon43]

What happened to Kirby SS Tier? =p

???

 

[Macchiato]

+1

 

[iNSANE]

+
-
-

 

[Jiggly]

+
-
-

 

[Vyrnx]

+1
+1
-1

Too many results for Villager to not be top tier.

Samus is pretty good once you get past some of her horrible unusable moves, has such a good grab game (once you get the grab ofc lol, but still important), can act out of SHAD which gives her another viable approach, shuts down some characters with zair (notably and), has a pretty even MU, is hard to kill, and overall is just too combo heavy to be bottom 5. Still low tier ofc.

Too many Luigi mains clinging to Boss's glory. There's been like one Luigi in top 32 at the last two nationals combined, unless you count Larry who played him a couple times at CEO.

 

[Wintermelon43]

+1
-1
-1

Too many results for Villager to not be top tier, Jigglypuff is bottom tier imo, and too many Luigi mains clinging to Boss's glory. There's been like one Luigi in top 32 at the last two nationals combined, unless you count Larry who played him a couple times at CEO.

Explain why Jigglypuff is bottom tier

 

[Pegasus Knight]

+1
+1
-1

Reasoning:
Swordfighter has gotten meaningful buffs. While still somewhat limited, it is nowhere near reasonable to call him the worst in the game.

Palutena has a good projectile, decent spacing with her jab, sh-fair, and grab. She's not top tier by any means, but she is underrated.

Zelda's buffs were nowhere near enough. Her air game is bad, her ground game is bad, her kill moves all require either insane precision or unusual setups, or can be escaped. When you want to make an '8th tier' with Swordfighter in it, I actually think ZELDA belongs down there.

Honorable mention that I can't vote for because I'm out of vote slots: , if limited to 1111, sucks and should be much lower.

 

[Doctor Luigi]

Next tier list update rosalina bottom tier.. why not just +1 sheik?

Anyway:

-1

+1

+1

 

[ZetaRokure]

Your theory would be correct if only a few votes were counted, this is precisely the reason why I wait so long between updates. I'm happy that people take the time to express their thoughts on my method, so I'll explain.

In a typical voting period, the majority of characters dont get enough votes to move at all. Out of 53 characters, usually no more than about 15 will move and their votes will look like this

Luigi -1 -1 -1 -1 +1 -1 -1 -1 -1 (-7)
metaknight +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 (+9)
pikachu +1 -1 -1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 (+4)

While yes, many users vote on their mains or characters they think are strong while not factoring in worldwide results etc, there still needs to be a consensus on this and that is very rare by having so many votes. At no time are the votes wasted because I need to set a high bar for them to qualify to move to counter the usual suspects voting the same character every week. I can have 3 people who always vote Lucina up every week because shes their waifu, by setting a +4 minimum it ensures that characters very rarely ever move due to a few people voting up a character unopposed. I can't simply set the threshold to 1 because then youll get characters like Kirby constantly going up a tier because one person votes him up every single time, it would be impossible to keep him down due to just one person. (Wintermelon43 I appreciate your enthusiasm in this thread, but you really are a prime example of what I'm talking about. Don't stop voting for who you want though, vote kirby every week forever for all I care, the rules allow it)

If metaknight gets 9 votes, 5 of those votes arent wasted because that helps him in his place when moving up the tier. Any character in the same tier as metaknight that gets say, +7 votes will move below him. This is how characters are loosely ranked within tiers and it stops characters from jumping up and down the tier list. As you can imagine, there is a very big difference between the top of tier 2 and the bottom of tier 3.

The excess votes you talk about help me order characters within tiers and help keep characters in place by negating the opinions of a few blind fanboys/girls and requiring a consensus to move them.

If I cut the voting periods short a significant amount of people would miss a chance to vote as this thread is quite popular. If I lowered the threshold, the list would be utter chaos with characters moving up and down non stop. I need the threshold to allow characters to settle. Just look at pit and dark pit. Those two were bouncing around all over the place for weeks on end but now they have settled thanks to the threshold, it is highly unlikely that there is going to be a consensus anytime soon to move one up/down a tier but leave the other where it is.

Thanks for the clarification, I made too many assumptions concerning your system, and I apologize.

 

[superange]

This actually isn't a customs list. (Not criticizing your vote. Just informing you, in case you weren't aware.)

I'm aware.

There is also a WFT who used no customs to win a long set at a Grand Finals at Sydney
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn4xPt-7q6Q

 

[Nelkoy]

Next tier list update rosalina bottom tier.. why not just +1 sheik?

Anyway:

-1

+1

+1

It's ok, no one can go further than +/- 1, so even if everybody vote Rosa -1, she will be rank 2 at a minimum.

 

[Doctor Luigi]

It's ok, no one can go further than +/- 1, so even if everybody vote Rosa -1, she will be rank 2 at a minimum.

oh.. didn't know that.
thanks!

 

[Vyrnx]

Explain why Jigglypuff is bottom tier

I tried to justify my post but realized I didn't think about it enough lol. Edited my post.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Okay, guys. This is what we have with the votes so far- (I like counting things. So I figured this time I might as well share the results of my counting with the people. That way there's actually a point to it. Sorry if I made a mistake. When this post gets bumped off of the page, I will recount and post again, to catch any edits, fix any mistakes, and count up new votes.)

Don't waste your votes on these characters, because the result is practically decided:
+8 (up to tier 1)
-11 (down to tier 2)

Characters currently moving up a tier:
+5 (up to tier 3)
+6 (up to tier 4)
+4 (up to tier 5)

Characters currently moving down a tier: (these are all just on the threshold; Rosa is the only one with more than -3)
-3 (down to tier 3)
-3 (down to tier 4)
-3 (down to tier 5)

Characters about to move up a tier: (one up-vote away)
+3 (would go up to tier 2)
+3 (would go up to tier 4)
+3 (would go up to tier 4)
+3 (would go up to tier 6)
+3 (would go up to tier 6)

Characters about to move down a tier: (one down-vote away)
-2 (would go down to tier 4)
-2 (would go down to tier 4)

Characters of interest: (two up-votes away from moving up a tier)
+2 (would go up to tier 3)
+2 (would go up to tier 3)
+2 (would go up to tier 3)
+2 (would go up to tier 5)
+2 (would go up to tier 5)
+2 (would go up to tier 5)
+2 (would go up to tier 7) (note that this would leave tier 8 empty)


Just trying to make sure that people are aware what their votes are going towards.

 

[Zionaze]

Okay, guys. This is what we have with the votes so far- (I like counting things. So I figured this time I might as well share the results of my counting with the people. That way there's actually a point to it. Sorry if I made a mistake.)

Don't waste your votes on these characters, because the result is practically decided:
+8 (up to tier 1)
-11 (down to tier 2)

Characters currently moving up a tier:
+5 (up to tier 3)
+6 (up to tier 4)
+4 (up to tier 5)

Characters currently moving down a tier: (these are all just on the threshold; Rosa is the only one with more than -3)
-3 (down to tier 3)
-3 (down to tier 4)
-3 (down to tier 5)

Characters about to move up a tier: (one up-vote away)
+3 (would go up to tier 2)
+3 (would go up to tier 4)
+3 (would go up to tier 4)
+3 (would go up to tier 6)
+3 (would go up to tier 6)

Characters about to move down a tier: (one down-vote away)
-2 (would go down to tier 4)
-2 (would go down to tier 4)

Characters of interest: (two up-votes away from moving up a tier)
+2 (would go up to tier 3)
+2 (would go up to tier 3)
+2 (would go up to tier 3)
+2 (would go up to tier 5)
+2 (would go up to tier 5)
+2 (would go up to tier 5)
+2 (would go up to tier 7) (note that this would leave tier 8 empty)


Just trying to make sure that people are aware what their votes are going towards.

unless the system is mistaken, this is super helpful!

 

[ZetaRokure]

I must say that I absolutely adore the regulations imposed upon and . It reflects the fact that both characters are considered optimal in the current meta. I propose that we should, as this tier list matures, create modified voting rounds as placements are consolidated in order to restrict the tier movement of characters widely considered viable.

For example, one could list the five characters they consider most threatening:


The characters with the most appearances on these lists could possibly have limits imposed on the extent to which they can descend upon the tier list, as this represents a consensus on their viability.

 

[dbwithlemon]

Agree with Zionaze, incredibly helpful. Thanks @ SpottedCerberus

With that in mind
+1
+1
+1

 

[A10theHero]

+
-
In my opinion, Sheik and Rosalina should be switched
+
He's right where he should be

 

[Axel311]

+1 Roy
-1 Pacman
+1 Wii Fit

Pac is definitely too high, there's way too many badmatchups for him with rush downs. Wii Fit definitely deserves mid tier, her camping game is great. Roy deserves to be high tier, that Fsmash is insane.

 

[hiramsthoughts]

+Metaknight based on Leo's performance at Smashfactor

+Toon Link based on Hyuga's performance at Smashfactor
+Pacman based on Beatfox's performance at Smashfactor

I'll edit with links to videos so you can take them into consideration.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Geez people overate Roy much?

 

[Nelkoy]

Geez people overate Roy much?

I think Roy is pretty good in this game, high mid tier at least, but too soon to determine if more than that.

 

[Axel311]

Geez people overate Roy much?

I don't think so. Not saying he's top tier but with a good combo game, good speed and that quick Fsmash doing 20% and killing so early I think he's atleast low high tier. Granted there's no results yet, but I credit that to him being banned at Apex and him only being around for a few months.

 

[Wintermelon43]

IMO high mid tier. High tier is too much. Roy has +7 so overate much

 

[Deleted member 269706]

-
-
+