Sveet's Marth

[Fortress | Sveet]

Here are some of my vids from this last weekend. These are all MMs. Tell me what you think...

Sveet (marth) vs Tink (fox) <-- i get wrecked
Sveet (marth) vs Lain (falco)
Sveet (marth) vs Quik (ganon)
Sveet (marth) vs Sago (DK/Sheik)
Sveet (marth) vs Mundungu (Ganon)

 

[Signia]

brawl color hacks 0/10

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You're trying too hard.

Like your movement game. It feels like you're moving for the sake of moving, which leads to you missing opportunities to attack and you getting hit by random things like standalone usmashes, which really shouldn't happen. You're often dash dancing yourself to the edge, where you're getting gimped. Against Fox, really, unless you have complete control, you want to be near the center.

Don't go up onto platforms as much as you do. This probably wouldn't happen, though, if you didn't (see above) dash dance yourself into the ledge.

If possible, learn to DI out of Fox's uair. It helps a lot.

Also, you really need to stop eating the bair edge guard. Come in lower. You don't have to be so low that grabbing the ledge is your only option, but as it stands, you're begging to be hit by the ledge hop bair, and Tink is obliging you.

Don't try so hard to be different or to be tricky. If you get a grab on Final Destination or even just in an open area on Yoshi's Story, go for the chain grab or the platform trap. The other mind game throws aren't working out for you, especially stuff like trying to tech chase in the middle of the stage and bthrow at... I don't remember what percent, but it was something way too low to even consider the bthrow.

Generally, just don't get psyched out. You're seeing attacks that aren't there, reacting to them and eating the attacks that really come. Marth's attack speed and shffl speed can't keep with Fox's, you really need to lock down and get control of your character, yourself and the match to win.

 

[Niko45]

Haha where are the 0-death chaingrabs on spacies you were talking about? jk

Anyway, vs Ganon:

-Never up throw. Always fthrow or back throw near/off the ledge. Chase and regrab, or fsmash, or fair, or if he DIs correctly (ever) just bait a DJ or something.

-When ganon is up Bing back and cant make the stage - HOLD THE LEDGE. If he had DI'd well he could have survived those fsmashes. If he can make the stage but not by a whole lot, dtilt him. If ganon actually up B's really high (which he should) edge guard with non tip fair. If he DIs in you ken combo, if he DIs away he is losing height and still needs to return, setting up some the previous options.

-Stop falling for Ganon's deceptive jump off the ledge. It's really high and he can DJ quickly out of it. You should have been getting pounded for that. You need more patience. Ganon can do nothing but sit there and try to bait you with double jumps so do not get aggressive while he still has that jump.

-Stop fsmashing on stage. Regrab is better. Fsmash is a terrible kill move vs Ganon. He'll live to 200 if you don't tip, and ur not/don't have time to line up tippers.

-In general really work on spacing fair. Do not come at him with early fair, you are left wide open when it (pretty much always) misses. Fair in place, retreating fair, work on OOS as well.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

added 2 more vids to first post.




elven, no offense, but it seemed like you didnt even watch my games or if you did you had no idea what was going on. go back and watch me sdi fox's uair almost every time, the problem is many times you still get hit by the uair even with sdi. To say my movement was "for the sake of moving" is half true. You MUST keep moving at all times. But my movement wasn't out of my control nor were i missing opportunities because i was focusing on moving (i was missing opportunities, but it was my lack of offensive experience not my movement). Against tink i was scared, he is really smart and read me instantly, he also was doing lots of semi-unpunishable moves, where i would have to commit to a punishable attack in order to punish him (also known as "bait"). Yes i know the counter to his counter, the problem is that i have to beat his next counter not his last one.

Anyways, heres a more correct overview of my style: I'm very defensive. I don't like approaching and would rather bait approaches with my dash dance or find holes in their approach game and punish it with grabs or pivot fsmashes. Careful movement and not getting hit is a definite necessity for that strategy. I struggle getting first hits because i'm a scaredy cat, but when i get one i usually use it pretty well. I like flashy stuff, and i like to sandbag, but i can easily switch it off and do the guaranteed stuff.

fsmashing the ganon was kinda one of those. If you didn't notice, I didnt lose a game. He could always get me down to the last stock then suddenly i would turn it back on and finish it up. TBH i wasn't afraid of the ganons on the stage. I have a lot of ganon experience. I know my consistancy with fsmashes is pretty high, and in my mind, my risk of losing if he came back seemed low at the time. If he was more consistant with ledgetechs or if i was less consistant with my fsmashes, I would have taken the edge more. I actually have a running joke with my crewmate who seconds ganon, he lived from my fsmashes until 250% on FD last week and were trying to break that record.

Niko: thanks for lots of advice, its good stuff. what did you mean by "stop fsmashing on the stage, regrab is better"?
Yea i know about ganon's ledge jump, i get baited to it all the time. theres actually a point where you can commit to an attack and he has to jump to avoid it. you can then reland and he has no air jump looking to come down and you can get a fsmash or utilt and juggle for lots of %, or at least nobody has been able to punish my attack of it XD

and yea, spacing fair is my next priority.

i think my biggest weakness is i'm missing an entire part of my game. My offensive game just isn't there. I've acknowledged it and i'm spending this week focusing on it. I'll post MMs from next weeks tournament up and maybe you guys can give me a bit more advice


edit: actually, watch my game vs sago's sheik, i actually play semi-offensively O_O I think its cause you can't turtle vs sheik XD

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I watched your first game. I didn't see you get out of any of Fox's uairs. Yeah, you can get hit with the uair still with smash DI, but only if you DI in the same way they're drifting.

It did seem like you were out of control. I only watched the match against Tink, but you dash danced straight into him when he was just standing there and ate a usmash. There was another time where you could've punished out of shield, but you wavedashed out of it and grabbed in completely the wrong direction, and in an entirely different section of the stage, too.

It did look like you were nervous and you did a good job considering that, but you just didn't seem very in control, which is why I suggested calming down and making the most of your movements, rather than moving just to be moving.

My other points still stand <_<

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if were talking about the same usmash, i was dding in front of him and he was jabbing (beats my grab). I had NO idea how to beat or punish that, so i kinda just froze while i was thinking and he usmashed me in my DD.

Oh and i think the grabs you're talking about was actually a messed up pivot grab. It happens a few times in the recorded sets. I sometimes jump cancel early and that cancels the turn around animation and makes me grab the wrong way.

 

[Niko45]

Sorry I was talking about fsmashing for a tech chase on stage. Like, middle of the stage. It happens a couple of times. They pretty much can't stop your regrab without double jumping which gives you a big opportunity. And you even have a couple of fsmashes just outright with no grab just using that as ur approach. Vs ganon this is really low payoff, high punishment if failed. Its just a bad habit all marths must kick in general. You think they won't expect it but, well, shield comes out quickly.

I'd say vs Ganon you were too offensive/aggressive whatever, actually. And you don't need to move vs ganon. Just keep enough space behind you. He's not moving either. Ganon's just jump in place and bait, sometimes slowly coming at you, or mindgaming down with a waveland. Keep your distance, wait for the DJ, and punish.

Vs Fox tho, ur right I'd be moving on yoshis. You are always a threat to hit him on Yoshis - he can't camp you. Move around and wait for him to do something dumb. Try not to get shield pressured. Basically the problem you had vs tink is the problem everybody mid-level has vs. pros. They punish so hard and you don't punish so hard. So he's confident as all hell and ur 2nd guessing everything ur doing. Punish him harshly a couple of times and he'll be more cautious.

EDIT:

Couple more things on fox:

I wouldn't focus on Smash DIing out. Yes, that is good. Try that at kill percents. For now at least, at low percents, you need to work on DIing these so that he can't string them together. This means more DI on the throw, and DI in the opposite direction each time he lands an up air.

The other thing is RECOVERY, omg. You are using side B mindlessly coming back. It lags and he can hit you - big window for that. You are floating down with side b ON STAGE which is guaranteed to get hit again. Drift off stage so that fox has to really commit to come after you, then sweet spot the ledge with ur second jump (you are using your second jump in the middle of the air on stage near the ledge...just bad). Be ready at any time for him to jump out at you and fair/jump and fair him away. Side B has to be used VERY cautiously near the stage bc if he predicts the timing he can punish the lag.

Btw - do you know a guy named "Book!"? He's from NY but he goes to school out there, and he recently got 4th at the last TIMS tournament which Tink won I believe.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

LOL yea i do fsmash a little too much. IT JUST FEEEEEELS SOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

vs ganon, i was trying to be offensive (i knew about my offensive issues before this tournament). I was trying to figure out what was a safe approach and what wasn't. I realized pretty fast that nair really shuts down ganon's air options, and the few times i got hit were mostly because i misspaced (and one time HE REVERSE BAIRED ME THROUGH MY NAIR! WTF???)

edit: and vs quik, i tomahawked him a lot because he never adapted to it and every time he jumped in the air it was a free fsmash lmao

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It was a wavedash out of shield to grab. I can find the specific time for all this stuff if you want, I don't remember off the top of my head.

Against jabs, you can be lame and fair him out of them. Like you get hit by the jab, it pops you up a tiny bit and you fair or uair him. Then grab. It's so lame. I hate it. But it works. Jabs really do have a fair bit of lag and they have almost no hit stun, so they're rather punishable, as long as you react fast enough.

Or if you're a button masher. Very frustrating.

You can crouch cancel it and grab, too.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yea good things to keep in mind. it was just crazy confusing. he didn't do any pattern more than once, which left me basically understanding the way to punish it, but with no opportunity to actually do it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Hm. I dunno, that seems like a pretty bad mentality to take.

Barring that you have to take the time to figure out counters and such, you're still in a reactionary state, which means you'll always be one step behind. I mean, if you've got fast reflexes and it works for you, go for it, but otherwise, it seems like you'll always be on the back foot.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

its basically just a skill difference. he was doing things i had no previous experience with, and so i had no direct counter to it. If you watch my style in the beginning and the end of the set, it was different. My changes just didn't work, he was always a step ahead.

anyways, lets stop talking about my got-***** set.......

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You have a strange style. It seems like you're going for a lot of quick gimps, rather than guaranteed stuff like chain grabs and such.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like every time you do something, you have a reaction anticipated from your opponent already. That's fine but... it seems like when things don't quite work out, you hesitate and get a little lost for a moment, then do something that may or may not be appropriate for the situation.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yea i think thats an accurate assessment

i sometimes have focus problems. usually it hits my prediction and i rely on my reaction more (if you read the samus boards, you'll know i have a high reaction time). Usually it turns into either covering every option but at a 3-4 frame disadvantage (i lose to buffered rolls) or predicting inaccurately. If I can focus well, I can do both at the same time (predict one option while covering all options; if the prediction fails i can still cover the rest without much disadvantage)

 

[Niko45]

Sveet look at my edit, do u know that guy?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yea i know book! he beat vro and we were all like "who the hell is book?"

apparently hes purrrty gud

 

[-ACE-]

I realized pretty fast that nair really shuts down ganon's air options

Ganon's bair eats marth's nair (and his fair) for breakfast.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

thats true. in one of the sets i get hit through my nair (in the middle of it) with a reverse bair. i was pretty shocked at the time and even said so to the guy

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ok so another tournament and new videos:

Sveet (Marth) vs Mundungu (Fox) 1
Sveet (Marth) vs Mundungu (Fox) 2

I have a set vs Ray Chun that i'll put up soon...

For doubles:
Sveet & Bzoo (Marth/Sheik) vs Mundungu & ORLY (Ganon/Falcon) 1
Sveet & Bzoo (Marth/Sheik) vs Mundungu & ORLY (Fox/Falcon) 2



-----------------------------------------



Against Mundungu, I think my weakness was my edgeguarding. I got him off a lot but he kept getting back.

I'd love a dark sonic full critique if someone wants to do it

 

[elvenarrow3000]

First thing I see is that you're throwing out the fsmash way way way too much. It seems like it's your go to move. Well, you're not Bowser, and fsmash is not your Fortress =P If you'll notice, pretty much every time you whiff a dtilt, you immediately go for the fsmash, on the stage or on the edge guard. You're not getting punished for it (which is weird) but you're missing a lot of opportunities.

If you hit their shield with a dtilt, don't panic! It's not that easy to punish, so just wait and see what they do and react to that, instead of hoping that they'll drop their shield and eat your fsmash. If you whiff the dtilt edge guard, don't add to your problem and use an even laggier move. Another dtilt works just fine, or a jab or something. Fsmash is a good edge guard, but it isn't the alpha and omega of edge guards. Consider using smaller, faster attacks that'll put them in a less variable position that you can take advantage of, because faster attacks mean more opportunities. Does that make sense?

Also, don't be afraid of going off the stage to edge guard. Foxes these days are tricky and mix up their Fire Fox angles. And generally, they've got three or four different ones they can pick, so it's hard to cover them all, especially considering they can shoot high and drift to bait out your attacks. Instead, choke them off early, when they don't have nearly as many options.

You're way too careless on the recovery. You can see it from the very first time you get knocked off, match one. Your double jump takes you too high when you're grabbing the ledge. No, you didn't get punished for it, but you could've. Other times, you're going straight into bair or shine range on your recovery when you absolutely do not need to.

Yes, you can cover your recovery with the fair. But that doesn't mean it's entirely safe. If you trade hits with Fox's bair, he gets knocked back onto the stage and you die. That's all there is to it. Use fair to dislodge them from the edge, don't expect to slash through every edge guard from every other character. Marth's good, but he's not that good.

Your playstyle is really different. Which is cool, uniqueness is good. But the traditional things Marth does are traditional for a reason. If you grab them near the edge, tech chase. It's reliable damage that potentially sets up edge guards and kills. Don't dsmash randomly and ruin that all. Even if it connects, you're not getting as much out of it as you could be.

If you grab them in the center of the stage, uthrow and do the chaingrab for damage. It's guaranteed damage, and when they land on a platform, you can hit them with utilts or fsmashes. There's absolutely no reason to throw that away and try for a possible flubbed DI to get a single fsmash in.

Uh, yeah, that's all for now.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

that dsmash after the dthrow was supposed to be a dtilt. it just so happens that dsmash does cover both options lol.

 

[cykofox]

sveet you got way better! still dumb mistakes here and there. we should play someday!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

remember that time at the vro zones, you asked me how long i had been playing?

when i said since 06 you were surprised. i explained it was because i quit the game and then picked it back up a bunch of times.

you told me, this time i should learn all the match-ups and get good.

Thats what I'm trying for

Come to more tournaments man, i miss that fox

 

[BBQ°]

To say my movement was "for the sake of moving" is half true. You MUST keep moving at all times. But my movement wasn't out of my control nor were i missing opportunities because i was focusing on moving (i was missing opportunities, but it was my lack of offensive experience not my movement).

I can kinda see where you're going with this, but I think a lot of the times in your vids you're kinda just mindlessly moving around, for the sake of moving.

I recall a marth video that was posted not too long ago where he liked to dashdance a lot but it was like... for no reason. He only dashdanced because that's what he saw other Marths doing. He wasn't dashdancing because he thought he could bait a spotdodge... or to scare his opponent... he was just dashdancing because that's what Marths do. So essentially he was dashdancing and moving around mindlessly.

In your case, it's less extreme, but it's still the same problem. The whole point of moving around the stage is because it opens up new options for yourself while limiting some of your opponent's options. You need to be moving around the stage in correlation with your opponent.

For example, you are on battlefield, and you are fighting against Fox. You begin moving around and you head towards the uppermost platform while fox is on the bottom right of the stage. You run to the left bottom platform as Fox tries to catch you, you predict that he's going to jump up and hit you when you land on the lower left platform, so you waveland on that platform, fall through it, and upair him as he's just about to land on that platform and then proceed to combo. Hope that makes sense.

I also notice that you like to jump up onto the platforms and cancel your jump with a waveland thing (not sure what it's called), which is an excellent form of movement since you can fall through the platform or run off the platform and attack them or tomahawk them. But you only really need to utilize the platforms like this when you think they are going to approach and you need a tricky way to hit them. Sometimes it seemed like you would use the platforms like this for no reason (maybe hoping they'll fall for your trap that you were anticipating), but then instead it made you look sloppy because you missed another opportunity to hit them.

PS: movement is something I'm struggling with too. I'm almost at that point where I can really keep control of the stage with movement

 

[Brightside6382]

I heard Ken Hoang came out of retirement and actually played at a tourney awhile back in the midwest Sveet. You should have asked him for advice on ur Marth play when you had the chance.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Street Fighter music! Lol. That's nostalgic.

I watched like three of those sets. One thing I noticed is that you don't pressure your opponents much. Tbh, I play a pretty passive style, too. The problem is that it doesn't really work against a patient and good player, like Tink, for example. You have to get in his face or he's going to walk all over you. Anyway, don't be afraid to make the first move. Be like KDJ and just randomly dash attack. It's bound to hit him out of his dash dance or something.

You said something in an earlier post about Tink baiting you into committing to a punishable attack and then, well, punishing you. You can do the same thing back. One of the many ploys that M2K uses (as Marth) against high level Foxes is he'll run into his opponent's dash dance zone and nair in place. Then he'll just run away. 1. If you don't hit Fox with a nair, he's probably going to try to punish your nair. But when you just run away from him, he ends up being the one committing, to a JC grab or whatnot.

Pretty basic stuff. But just think "pressure" when playing better people. Also, as HMW always says in his commentaries, "you don't wanna let the better player back on the stage". Be willing to go offstage to edgeguard. I noticed in all those money matches, you pretty much didn't go off the stage once. Might want to work on that, maybe. *Shrug*

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I heard Ken Hoang came out of retirement and actually played at a tourney awhile back in the midwest Sveet. You should have asked him for advice on ur Marth play when you had the chance.

I really should have. I did get a pretty good set vs him in bracket, and even managed to take a game from him.


When are you coming back to tournaments?


edit:: and guys, you don't have to critique these vids anymore. I'm like 15 levels better than this now, i actually understand how and why tink won vs me and i'll be giving him a lot more trouble next time we meet.

edit2:: i edited at 420 BABY!
edit3:: **** now its 421

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Whoa. **** son! He's back?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!

Favorite Marth player ever *starry eyes*

 

[Brightside6382]

I really should have. I did get a pretty good set vs him in bracket, and even managed to take a game from him.


When are you coming back to tournaments?


edit:: and guys, you don't have to critique these vids anymore. I'm like 15 levels better than this now, i actually understand how and why tink won vs me and i'll be giving him a lot more trouble next time we meet.

edit2:: i edited at 420 BABY!
edit3:: **** now its 421

He's old and rusty now though!

Meh I dunno me and Yoru try to go out to a tourney every once in awhile but I'm to lazy to go consistantly lol

*looks up*
Yes Ken is back. He lives in Chicago now it's wild.

 

[BBQ°]

edit:: and guys, you don't have to critique these vids anymore. I'm like 15 levels better than this now, i actually understand how and why tink won vs me and i'll be giving him a lot more trouble next time we meet.

lol I know, it's just fun to critique because it helps my marth too

He's old and rusty now though!

Meh I dunno me and Yoru try to go out to a tourney every once in awhile but I'm to lazy to go consistantly lol

*looks up*
Yes Ken is back. He lives in Chicago now it's wild.

lolwtf?!

 

[DJMirror]

how does everyone know this? knowing about ken moving to the midwest and stuff? =___=

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

He went to one of my tournaments, duh.

 

[Cosmo!]

i beat him with zelda tho so he's mad rusty

 

[ChivalRuse]

i beat him with zelda tho so he's mad rusty

****. Lol.

<3 Ken, though.

 

[Meneks]

I have a mm between kens roy and my gnw..
should be fun

 

[Dart]

Sorry I was talking about fsmashing for a tech chase on stage. Like, middle of the stage. It happens a couple of times. They pretty much can't stop your regrab without double jumping which gives you a big opportunity. And you even have a couple of fsmashes just outright with no grab just using that as ur approach. Vs ganon this is really low payoff, high punishment if failed. Its just a bad habit all marths must kick in general. You think they won't expect it but, well, shield comes out quickly.

I'd say vs Ganon you were too offensive/aggressive whatever, actually. And you don't need to move vs ganon. Just keep enough space behind you. He's not moving either. Ganon's just jump in place and bait, sometimes slowly coming at you, or mindgaming down with a waveland. Keep your distance, wait for the DJ, and punish.

Vs Fox tho, ur right I'd be moving on yoshis. You are always a threat to hit him on Yoshis - he can't camp you. Move around and wait for him to do something dumb. Try not to get shield pressured. Basically the problem you had vs tink is the problem everybody mid-level has vs. pros. They punish so hard and you don't punish so hard. So he's confident as all hell and ur 2nd guessing everything ur doing. Punish him harshly a couple of times and he'll be more cautious.

EDIT:

Couple more things on fox:

I wouldn't focus on Smash DIing out. Yes, that is good. Try that at kill percents. For now at least, at low percents, you need to work on DIing these so that he can't string them together. This means more DI on the throw, and DI in the opposite direction each time he lands an up air.

The other thing is RECOVERY, omg. You are using side B mindlessly coming back. It lags and he can hit you - big window for that. You are floating down with side b ON STAGE which is guaranteed to get hit again. Drift off stage so that fox has to really commit to come after you, then sweet spot the ledge with ur second jump (you are using your second jump in the middle of the air on stage near the ledge...just bad). Be ready at any time for him to jump out at you and fair/jump and fair him away. Side B has to be used VERY cautiously near the stage bc if he predicts the timing he can punish the lag.

Btw - do you know a guy named "Book!"? He's from NY but he goes to school out there, and he recently got 4th at the last TIMS tournament which Tink won I believe.

LOL speaking of that tourney, i 3 stocked tinks fox there, holy crap that tourney was fun.

 

[Tink]

lolll...it was fun...get peach practice noooob! PP

 

[Dart]

lolll...it was fun...get peach practice noooob! PP

I did! , well now we have to play again...you wouldn't by chance be going to any tournies in the near future eh?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

either of you guys making it up to lolis this weekend?