Super Smash Con 2015 Ruleset

[Synesthesia]

@DumpsterMidget It's a sad thing man, but at least we can still play friendlies on hyrule smashcon, apex, or any other tournament isn't just about the tournament itself. We can still have some sick ass friendlies on hyrule, and pull off some crazy hype tent combos.

 

[pidgezero_one]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

DL only is very boring and promotes tournaments with 99% pika/falcon with a couple yoshis or kirbyes... You end up watching almost always the same mu every match.. Hirule could be legal with timmers and woudnt be every match with 8 minutes, how do i know that? Because this never happened, not in peru, not in brazil, not in the us before DL only... In peru what boom did could be prevented with a simple timmer and a anti stalling rule ( witch works perfectly in tournamentsnaround herw). I typed all that cuz i was bored, i know the ruleset will be dl only eitherway, even ig hirule manages to win the poll. And yes, i understand your points , and i dont think is completely wrong, but still, its boring and ruin most MU.. I underdtamd too that this doed not matter in tournament.. Typing in cell, sorry for all the miss spelling

 

[Shears]

DL only is very boring and promotes tournaments with 99% pika/falcon with a couple yoshis or kirbyes... You end up watching almost always the same mu every match.. Hirule could be legal with timmers and woudnt be every match with 8 minutes, how do i know that? Because this never happened, not in peru, not in brazil, not in the us before DL only... In peru what boom did could be prevented with a simple timmer and a anti stalling rule ( witch works perfectly in tournamentsnaround herw). I typed all that cuz i was bored, i know the ruleset will be dl only eitherway, even ig hirule manages to win the poll. And yes, i understand your points , and i dont think is completely wrong, but still, its boring and ruin most MU.. I underdtamd too that this doed not matter in tournament.. Typing in cell, sorry for all the miss spelling

It was pretty good considering you're not a native English speaker if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Synesthesia]

DL only is very boring and promotes tournaments with 99% pika/falcon with a couple yoshis or kirbyes... You end up watching almost always the same mu every match.. Hirule could be legal with timmers and woudnt be every match with 8 minutes, how do i know that? Because this never happened, not in peru, not in brazil, not in the us before DL only... In peru what boom did could be prevented with a simple timmer and a anti stalling rule ( witch works perfectly in tournamentsnaround herw). I typed all that cuz i was bored, i know the ruleset will be dl only eitherway, even ig hirule manages to win the poll. And yes, i understand your points , and i dont think is completely wrong, but still, its boring and ruin most MU.. I underdtamd too that this doed not matter in tournament.. Typing in cell, sorry for all the miss spelling

Ya I know, I hate how everytime this debate is brought up, and I've seen it multiple times. Someone posts 1 video of intense stalling and says its irrefutable evidence to suggest these stages should be banned. Where are the 100's of videos with really great matches that were played on these stages? Completely thrown out the window. I'm not trying to continue the arguement any further and I somewhat agree with the DL only ruleset, but i thought that point had to be thrown out there. One or two games on a given stage shouldn't be the evidence to ban the stage entirely, and if you play low tier characters on a stage thats against your favor, thats no-ones fault but your own. You can counter-pick characters, have a pocket-pikachu or kirby for when these stages are picked against you.

 

[Combo Blaze]

DL only is very boring and promotes tournaments with 99% pika/falcon with a couple yoshis or kirbyes...

Yeah, because that's worse than the pika/kirby with a couple fox/falcon on Hyrule.

but still, its boring and ruin most MU.. I underdtamd too that this doed not matter in tournament..

I've seen more standoffs/stalling on hyrule than DL which is quite boring. And dunno about ruining most MUs. Hyrule has its MU problems too. At least with a DL only set up you don't get counterpicked into a stage that completely shuts off your character. There's also the issue with stage balance in itself which has been argued before quite a bit.

If you want to have FUN then play whatever stage you want, but in a tournament setting the game should be played out with the most neutral ruleset possible. DL provides the most balanced layout and least detrimental hazards in the game.

 

[Synesthesia]

If you want to have FUN then play whatever stage you want, but in a tournament setting the game should be played out with the most neutral ruleset possible. DL provides the most balanced layout and least detrimental hazards in the game.

Yes, it is about the competition and playing the game with the most neutral ruleset possible is important, but you have to be wary about dulling the game down to the point no-one finds it enjoyable to play (I'm mainly speaking of new players looking to get into it) it's better to find solutions to these problems that do not ban certain aspects. A timer is something that may not solve that problem, but it's something that should be tried instead of simply saying it wont work.

 

[BananaBolts]

You can counter-pick characters, have a pocket-pikachu or kirby for when these stages are picked against you.

I highly discourage people from this advice. You should be able to play any character in a ruleset designed for balance.

 

[Synesthesia]

I highly discourage people from this advice. You should be able to play any character in a ruleset designed for balance.

I'm speaking strictly from a "play to win" standpoint. If anyone cares enough that they vote to ban a stage because their character is not viable on that stage, that's exactly what they're doing. (idk if you're playing ness you're not really playing to win...) The game was not balanced when it was released, thats why we have a tier list. There is no way to balance this game completely with a ruleset. Link is bad on dreamland? How is this ruleset at all designed for balance, and this is coming from a falcon main....

 

[Shears]

As it stands, it looks like smashcon will be DL only which will probably mark the end of the other stages forever. I imagine after DL only smashcon, Apex will also be DL only and then generations from now children will see videos of people playing on an ancient Hyrule and laugh "What barbarians, they played on Hyrule and thought it was fun?! LOL!!"

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

i dont know if i agreed with your hirule is fox/falconland argument... It leaves room for counterpicking, youncan play yoshi,pikachu, fox,mario,luigi,kirvy perfectly vs falcon, as you can jigg,mario,luigi,fox,falcon vs pika... I dont know, does not seem that unbalanced to me.. But still, hirule only would be horrible, the argument is to be a viable counterpick.. Counterpicking is fun, interesting and atractfull in all smashes... Hirule would make possible for players to have different strategies and charachters ready to use, instead of picking the same pikachu /falcon and face other piakchu/falcone every match till the finals, where the best pika/falcon on DL will be the winner.. Of course im exagerating to make a point since isai went far as mario and jigg and the **** as ness and kirby..

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

if everything is decided as far as ruleset, why create the thread?

 

[Shears]

if everything is decided as far as ruleset, why create the thread?

The thread is what is deciding the ruleset and the thread reflects 5 stock, DL only, optional 8 minute timer. Thats why the thread is created.

 

[BananaBolts]

I'm speaking strictly from a "play to win" standpoint. If anyone cares enough that they vote to ban a stage because their character is not viable on that stage, that's exactly what they're doing. (idk if you're playing ness you're not really playing to win...) The game was not balanced when it was released, thats why we have a tier list. There is no way to balance this game completely with a ruleset. Link is bad on dreamland? How is this ruleset at all designed for balance, and this is coming from a falcon main....

I'm saying that you should not be forced to change characters because of a single stage. Link is not totally unplayable on DL but some characters however are almost unusable vs campy characters on Hyrule. You could try to camp against Link on DL but that's not going to work well; Link has good approach options. I'm saying that DL only is the closest thing we have to a balanced ruleset. Since you mentioned the "play to win" style, if someone wanted to play to win on Hyrule, they'd probably camp. hard.

Since you bring up my main... I don't play Falcon because he's a good character nor do I play him because he's nostalgic. I play Falcon because he's fun and hype.
(I even think Falcon is a bit worse on DL but I can't really give convicing evidence to support that theory)

 

[Synesthesia]

I'm saying that you should not be forced to change characters because of a single stage. Link is not totally unplayable on DL but some characters however are almost unusable vs campy characters on Hyrule. You could try to camp against Link on DL but that's not going to work well; Link has good approach options. I'm saying that DL only is the closest thing we have to a balanced ruleset. Since you mentioned the "play to win" style, if someone wanted to play to win on Hyrule, they'd probably camp. hard.

You don't have to change your character based on the stage. I'm just saying that it's an opition, and if you're really dedicated to win then why not have a few pocket characters for match-ups on certain stage you arn't comfortable with? The best players in this game have multiple characters they can do really well with and know how to counter-pick to give themselves an advantage in tournament. There's really nothing wrong with that? Take Apex for example. Do you really think the results would have been any different if it was a dreamland only ruleset? I don't think congo or peaches are causing any huge upsets except for maybe a few players, and I don't believe we should change our entire ruleset based on a few matchups that are slightly slanted in another characters favor. Hyrule imo is up for alot of debate, but congo and peaches shouldn't be.

Since you bring up my main... I don't play Falcon because he's a good character nor do I play him because he's nostalgic. I play Falcon because he's fun and hype.
(I even think Falcon is a bit worse on DL but I can't really give convicing evidence to support that theory)

On your main. I'm not saying you pick falcon because he's good. I'm saying I think it's more likely for you to agree to the dreamland only ruleset due to the character you main, and I don't think its in the good interest of the game for players to vote on a ruleset based on the character they play, and how comfortable they are on a given stage.

 

[BananaBolts]

You don't have to change your character based on the stage. I'm just saying that it's an opition, and if you're really dedicated to win then why not have a few pocket characters for match-ups on certain stage you arn't comfortable with? The best players in this game have multiple characters they can do really well with and know how to counter-pick to give themselves an advantage in tournament. There's really nothing wrong with that? Take Apex for example. Do you really think the results would have been any different if it was a dreamland only ruleset? I don't think congo or peaches are causing any huge upsets except for maybe a few players, and I don't believe we should change our entire ruleset based on a few matchups that are slightly slanted in another characters favor. Hyrule imo is up for alot of debate, but congo and peaches shouldn't be.

I play a serious Jiggs too. I don't exclusively play Falcon. My point still stands that a stage can be played to completely shut down another character's approach options. e.g. Ness cannot approach most characters on Congo, a campy Kirby on Hyrule is broken, etc. Sure, it's poor game design but don't pair it with poor rulesets.

On your main. I'm not saying you pick falcon because he's good. I'm saying I think it's more likely for you to agree to the dreamland only ruleset due to the character you main, and I don't think its in the good interest of the game for players to vote on a ruleset based on the character they play, and how comfortable they are on a given stage.

I have never supported DL-only because of my main. Like I said, "I even think Falcon is a bit worse on DL but I can't really give convicing evidence to support that theory." <-- that's my personal opinion and it directly contradicts the idea that I support DL-only because my main does well there.

I play every MU on DL and it's just the way I play the game. It definitely feels the most balanced to me (and many other players).

 

[Shears]

You don't have to change your character based on the stage. I'm just saying that it's an opition, and if you're really dedicated to win then why not have a few pocket characters for match-ups on certain stage you arn't comfortable with? The best players in this game have multiple characters they can do really well with and know how to counter-pick to give themselves an advantage in tournament. There's really nothing wrong with that? Take Apex for example. Do you really think the results would have been any different if it was a dreamland only ruleset? I don't think congo or peaches are causing any huge upsets except for maybe a few players, and I don't believe we should change our entire ruleset based on a few matchups that are slightly slanted in another characters favor. Hyrule imo is up for alot of debate, but congo and peaches shouldn't be.

If the counterpicking didn't make any results different then why even have the counterpicking in the first place. Having the counterpicks and not having the counterpicks yields the same result, therefore the counterpicks are a don't care condition and can be removed. This is called minimizing and is very common in engineering, i.e. engineering a ruleset for competitive smash.

On your main. I'm not saying you pick falcon because he's good. I'm saying I think it's more likely for you to agree to the dreamland only ruleset due to the character you main, and I don't think its in the good interest of the game for players to vote on a ruleset based on the character they play, and how comfortable they are on a given stage.

Theres no way around a persons bias.

 

[Synesthesia]

I just fear a rule set like this will effect the game as a whole in an entirely different way, and people will get to the point they only want to play dreamland in even friendlies. That's kindof the way online is and even in a less competitive atmosphere people want to play only dreamland to improve their match-up experience, and throw all other stages under the bus so they can improve. I don't want to see an only dreamland future for this game.

 

[Mr Bushido]

I don't want to see an only dreamland future for this game.

I do and what I want > what u want

 

[Kirbstomper]

This is called minimizing and is very common in engineering, i.e. engineering a ruleset for competitive smash.

Do you think you're better than me because you went to college and read books and stuff

 

[$$$ Jim $$$]

Wait so what's wrong with Peach's? Every time we have this discussion, people end up talking about Hyrule for 40 posts. This is probably the longest discussion I've seen about Kongo, and the only reason we've mentioned is "Ness has a horrible approach." But what's the issue with Peach's?

 

[Synesthesia]

Wait so what's wrong with Peach's? Every time we have this discussion, people end up talking about Hyrule for 40 posts. This is probably the longest discussion I've seen about Kongo, and the only reason we've mentioned is "Ness has a horrible approach." But what's the issue with Peach's?

It is more difficult for certain characters to recover, because the lack of a ledge, but that's the only argument I could see against it. I think the concern is kirby and pika players will counterpick lower tiers to this stage and completely dominate them, but thats why i made the argument of having pocket characters for such counterpicks. I don't know why people are so obsessed with sticking to one character and thinking it's unfair for them to have to ever switch based on a particular matchup. I love fox, and the rest of my characters are absolutely garbage, but this is a supersmashbros 64 tournament. Not a "who can play a low tier character and still win" tournament. I understand your character is fun to play, but what if i enjoy playing on peaches? ( which i dont i'm garbage at both congo and peaches). I'm not going to whine about hyrule being banned (which is also a better stage for my character), but I do think banning peaches and congo is taking it abit far.

 

[firo]

It is more difficult for certain characters to recover, because the lack of a ledge, but that's the only argument I could see against it. I think the concern is kirby and pika players will counterpick lower tiers to this stage and completely dominate them, but thats why i made the argument of having pocket characters for such counterpicks. I don't know why people are so obsessed with sticking to one character and thinking it's unfair for them to have to ever switch based on a particular matchup. I love fox, and the rest of my characters are absolutely garbage, but this is a supersmashbros 64 tournament. Not a "who can play a low tier character and still win" tournament. I understand your character is fun to play, but what if i enjoy playing on peaches? ( which i dont i'm garbage at both congo and peaches). I'm not going to whine about hyrule being banned (which is also a better stage for my character), but I do think banning peaches and congo is taking it abit far.

So would you want yoshi's story playable in tournament as well? There's nothing random in that stage, so why not? Link can barely make it to the clouds and kirby/pika can just camp there all day, so with that logic, we should allow it and then people will only play those two characters.

When you design a tournament, you set out certain rules. We play without items even though it helps some characters. We play with team attack on even though it hurts other characters. Rules are designed to maximize certain goals, and if you don't have the right rules, people won't watch and people won't play.

It is very easy for a pikachu to camp at the edge of the moving platforms in peaches, for example. There's no pocket character counterpick for a kirby camping the top platform in hyrule or the top platforms on congo. These are things that actually occur and will happen in high level play if you allow these stages, and it makes the game not fun to watch and not fun to play. Smash 64 has a $5000 prize pool and some people will do everything they can to win within the rules. If you want to see campy pika and kirby games on peaches/kongo/hyrule in tournament that basically turn into endurance matches and slow down the rest of the tournament then you are very much in the minority.

 

[Zeds]

I don't know why people are so obsessed with sticking to one character and thinking it's unfair for them to have to ever switch based on a particular matchup. I love fox, and the rest of my characters are absolutely garbage, but this is a supersmashbros 64 tournament. Not a "who can play a low tier character and still win" tournament.

Nah man just play who you want to play. let's say, oh idk, let's pick Samus. Just keep playin smash nd drinking, maybe learn the MUs, still lose the MUs cuz Samus, keep drinking, play more Samus, drink some more, place 4th at a tourney….Oh god i'm becoming Cobr #RIP
Only a matter of time til i quit this game only to show up at smashcon nd commentate pika dittos

 

[Synesthesia]

So would you want yoshi's story playable in tournament as well? There's nothing random in that stage, so why not? Link can barely make it to the clouds and kirby/pika can just camp there all day, so with that logic, we should allow it and then people will only play those two characters.

Thats no where near my logic. I watched apex and the previous apex, and to be honest most matches were played on dreamland anyway. I never said yoshi's story or items should be allowed. I understand that certain stages are banned for a reason and i have no want for these stages to be legal. The arguements for those i can understand. I just cant understand why peaches and congo are up for debate when this years apex didn't have many huge upsets from them being legal (as far as i know correct me if im wrong). I'm not here to argue, and honestly most things that were pointed out i completely agree on. When you pointed out the ness problem on congo, i had no idea about that problem and it really did change my opinion on the stage slightly. However, I dont believe we should ban a stage based on one character. Yes, link is playable on dreamland, but you have to be very very good to pull it off, I dont see a tear shed for him? And if you follow that, ness is still playable on congo, you just have to be very very good to pull it off. As i was saying i'm not really hear to argue, and i don't mean to offend anyone I just want to understand the situation, and the exact reasoning behind this (there may be things that myself and other players are unaware of).

 

[pidgezero_one]

Nah man just play who you want to play. let's say, oh idk, let's pick Samus. Just keep playin smash nd drinking, maybe learn the MUs, still lose the MUs cuz Samus, keep drinking, play more Samus, drink some more, place 4th at a tourney….Oh god i'm becoming Cobr #RIP
Only a matter of time til i quit this game only to show up at smashcon nd commentate pika dittos

ty.

 

[SilentShottt]

Hi @ Synesthesia , I'm posting this on behalf of Cobrevolution:

matchups that become LAUGHABLE on hyrule:

ness vs the cast
sky kirby vs cast
left slant kirby vs cast, save for link
fox vs slow characters (samus, luigi, ness, dk)
runaway falcon vs cast, save for fox
retreating fireball mario vs cast, save for falcon, link, fox and pika

movement options on dreamland are FAR better for the cast than movement options on hyrule, because platforms are such a huge part of their games. sky camping is effectively broken on hyrule because there is only one way to approach it, and it's unfavorable (from the other two ladder platforms). sky camping on dreamland can be approached from three different locations.

hyrule provides a boost to link and perhaps jpuff (for lower punish possibilities after rest combos), a nerf to samus, ness, luigi, and yoshi, lets dk stay around the same, and greatly buffs fox, pika and kirby (aka the three best characters in the game). therefore, matchups that are already skewed become even more skewed.

dreamland, on the other hand, provides a boost to everyone except link and fox (both of whom still perform very well against low tiers).

it's only sensible that, if we're talking about competitive viability, we'd accept a boost in all matchups instead of just the higher tiers. this decreases the chance that a game will be decided on the stage/character gap, i believe.

the same is true for peach's and congo. sk and i have had this discussion before, but i will reiterate here: i believe that recoveries are worse on peach's due to the moving penis and the lack of a grabbable ledge (sk believes, iirc, that the wedges interrupt edgeguarding and prevent you from going into a recovering position, so that's a boost). a backthrow on dreamland is not a 100% stock - a backthrow on peach's as the penis is shrinking, on the other hand...

further, peach's has more limited movement options as well, in contrast to dreamland. congo is the same way - it's a cockeyed dreamland, and lacks ledge di, which is a great tool for many characters.

and because this is about smash con - let me tell you something. let's assume boom doesn't go and hyrule is legal, so it's anyone's tourney, really. do you think Fireblaster (obviously not throwing you under the bus, javi, just making a point) wouldn't choose to counterpick hyrule and camp his ass off to win? to get that 5k pot bonus? the game is changing to the point that people will do whatever they can to win, and if playing an hour game on hyrule is what it takes, they'll do it.

aaaand smashcon is also 65 bucks. more expensive than apex. dunno if i'm going now, wtf is wrong with this ****.

 

[Synesthesia]

Hi @ Synesthesia ,

if we're talking about competitive viability, we'd accept a boost in all matchups instead of just the higher tiers. this decreases the chance that a game will be decided on the stage/character gap, i believe.

Agreed. I'm going to go have a couple beers and forget about all this **** lol.

 

[MrMarbles]

Hi @ Synesthesia


aaaand smashcon is also 65 bucks. more expensive than apex. dunno if i'm going now, wtf is wrong with this ****.

apex also treats 64 like **** and tends to be poorly run year after year. Well worth the slight increase if you ask me

 

[$$$ Jim $$$]

@ SilentShottt is that the main reason for Peach's? I don't...I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't just wait until the platform is extending or disappearing so that pika has to approach you. do you know of a match i could take a look at and see it in action? i might just be missing something


also, separately, i think we can probably all agree that a stage that makes one/two characters way better than the rest (eg kirby/fox on hyrule) breaks the game, but i'm not sure that a stage making one character really bad justifies banning the stage without other issues going on.

 

[Combo Blaze]

was gonna post this but then wasn't but I'll post it I guess.

There's been arguments placed for Peach's and Congo before during Hyrule banning days too.

One of the biggest issues with Peach's is the recovery limitations on all characters not Pika. Pika, a character that's already #1, gains even more with Peach's being allowed since it is one of the few characters that can reliably recover on that stage. There's also the bumper which is a moving hazard at the top of the stage that can save people from attacks that would've killed normally. You could argue that it's visible enough and that with a fixed movement speed it should be possible to remember where it would be but you're not always paying attention to that and will more often than not forget about it. And pretty much what Rob said.

 

[Fireblaster]

Ness is not the only character that suffers on Kongo, that was just ONE EXAMPLE. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE KONGO BEING TURNED INTO THE NEXT HYRULE BEFORE YOU GUYS AGREE ON BANNING IT

 

[Shears]

Nah man just play who you want to play. let's say, oh idk, let's pick Samus. Just keep playin smash nd drinking, maybe learn the MUs, still lose the MUs cuz Samus, keep drinking, play more Samus, drink some more, place 4th at a tourney….Oh god i'm becoming Cobr #RIP
Only a matter of time til i quit this game only to show up at smashcon nd commentate pika dittos

This, this is what tournaments and smash is about. Take notes people.

Also, if any stage promotes excessive camping and theres a $5000 bonus, if you camped for 3 hours you're still making $1667/hour welcome to the life of a CEO for a billion dollar company.

Oh and the increased venue fee has to do with more of what smashcon offers compared to Apex. Not only is there a better pot bonus but the event is not just a tournament but a convention with tons of events and activities. Its like a festival of smash and Nintendo, like comiccon but smash bros. That may not be appealing to you because you may not care to take advantage of those activities, but for a lot of people it might be worth it. Smashcon will offer more than Apex in every way and I imagine the attendance numbers by 2016 will be higher.

 

[$$$ Jim $$$]

lmao Fireblaster just explain what you're talking about. i don't really see anyone trying to argue with you as so much as just understand your viewpoint

 

[Sedda]

why is cobr still banned

 

[Shears]

why is cobr still banned

Because he never said sorry @Grudgechamp7

 

[Olikus]

pikas recovery is worse on peach than DL. no sweetspotting means landing lag that leads to more punishes than on DL. Star king had a good post about it some years ago but to lazy to look.

falcon gets worse on peach. yoshi gets worse on peach. fox gets worse on peach. only high tier that maybe doesnt get worse on peach is kirby. But then again its kirby.

I dont mind a DL only ruleset btw. Im just not buying peach makes all the high tiers better analogy.

 

[Combo Blaze]

Pikachu can just use his up b range to recover at a position where he doesn't get punished. He doesn't have an insane landing lag so it's not bad, and it's hell of a lot better than the rest of the cast.

 

[pidgezero_one]

 

[Morin0]

aaaand smashcon is also 65 bucks. more expensive than apex. dunno if i'm going now, wtf is wrong with this ****.

lmao. 65 bucks to commentate rat dittos.