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ryuu seika

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I was thinking about a defense stat that would alter damage received and would obviously be lower for prevos in general.

That's a great idea with clanking, I didn't think of that. Do we keep the regular system or just say everything clanks unless there's a type advantage?
Also, does "Dragon" beat "Normal" or what?

Instant KOs are integrated into a few Pokemon Stadium 1 movesets but I'm not sure how important they are or if they'll stay.

And whatever else happens, I'd like Rhydon to keep Thunder and Surf because they were wacky and made him ultra powerful against the dumb AI (they always played water types against rock if able).
 

FOUREYES

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I was thinking about a defense stat that would alter damage received and would obviously be lower for prevos in general.

That's a great idea with clanking, I didn't think of that. Do we keep the regular system or just say everything clanks unless there's a type advantage?
Also, does "Dragon" beat "Normal" or what?

Instant KOs are integrated into a few Pokemon Stadium 1 movesets but I'm not sure how important they are or if they'll stay.

And whatever else happens, I'd like Rhydon to keep Thunder and Surf because they were wacky and made him ultra powerful against the dumb AI (they always played water types against rock if able).
I'm thinking the stats are going to be less about actual stats and more just guidelines for character design.

I'm thinking with priority it'll basically be "type advantage > damage" for that; basically, Aura Sphere goes through Hyper Beam, Hyper Beam clanks with Solar Beam, Hyper Beam goes through Ember.

Honestly, I think we should stick to moves that make sense for the pokemon to have; while it's whacky and fun to give Rhydon Surf and Thunder, it doesn't make sense for him to have those moves because he's a Rock/Ground pokemon, and it looks weird from a character design standpoint.

Also, Venusaur moveset I came up with (just specials and overall character philosophy/strategy):

Venusaur is a fairly balanced pokemon with an emphasis on strong, high priority ranged attacks which make him a fairly stationary camper, similar to Olimar.

Neutral B: Solarbeam - A charged attack, it comes out with a hitbox similar to ROB's laser, but is charged like Samus/Lucario/DK's neutral specials. Charging it increases it's knockback and the width of the beam. Like ROB's lazer, it can be angled in any direction. Has enough cooldown lag to make it punishable if whiffed. Can KO at around 150% fully charged with no DI.

Side B: Leafstorm - Venusaur flings three leaves in quick succession, damaging his opponents with said leaves. These combined with Solarbeam give Venusaur his main camping tools, as the leaves have very high priority and will cancel out or go through most projectiles. Don't KO, but can gimp characters with bad recoveries.

Up B: Vine Whip - Think Brawl Ivysaur

Down B: Toxic - This works similarly to Wario's fart in that it charges passively over time, but it takes less time to charge (I'm thinking somewhere between 30 seconds and a minute) and is less of an "OMFG FART KO" and more of a "GTFO" move. It gives a set knockback at no charge and does a small amount of damage over time; fully charged it will KO around 100% and deal a significant amount of damage over time. If used in the air it acts as a recovery at all levels of charge, sending Venusaur straight into the air by varying amounts depending on the amount it has charged. Also a useful gimping move.

Basically Venusaur would be built around keeping opponents away and racking damage with uncharged Solarbeam and Leafstorm, then scoring a KO with Toxic, fully charged Solar Beam, or one of his smashes. I'd probably give him a decent "GTFO" non-special setup with decent reach but not as much KO potential, just enough knockback to get the opponent back into Leafstorm/SB spam range.
 

ryuu seika

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I like the idea of Ditto having different stats to the pokemon it copies but yeah, it's probably best to ditch stats in favour of building them in.
On Rhydon, we'll see how it goes. What recovery move would you give him if he lost Surf though?

Anyway, I'm sticking with the pokemon stadium movesets for now but your Venusaur is looking good. As far as Pokemon stadium is concerned though, the charging for Solar Beam happens after the attack, which is odd.

Bulbasaur:
Leaf Cutter (Grass): a simple 3 leaf projectile attack. Quick but with only medium range and little damage.
Leech Seed (Grass): a slightly slower attack with less range and damage. This move makes up for its drawbacks by dealing vampiric (life draining) damage over time.
Cutter (Normal): a tiny jump and a slash with the front foot. This move isn't particularly quick and isn't a projectile but it does a fair amount of damage. Has tiny upward recovery potential.
Sleep Powder (Grass): pretty much the same as the "sing" attack of Melee Jigglypuff except that the startup is a little longer and the time for which the opponent sleeps is not fixed. Instead, they have a chance to wake up at any point and this chance increase whenever they receive knockback.

Ivysaur:
Sleep Powder (Grass): pretty much the same as the "sing" attack of Melee Jigglypuff except that the startup is a little longer and the time for which the opponent sleeps is not fixed. Instead, they have a chance to wake up at any point and this chance increase whenever they receive knockback.
Mega Drain (Grass): grabs the opponent and uses the bulb/flower on its back to drain life from them. Large amount of ending lag on a miss.
Double Edge (Normal): a forward lunge that can also aid recovery. Does a large amount of damage and medium knockback but also hurts the user.
Razor Leaf (Grass):

Venusaur:
Leech Seed (Grass): a slightly slower attack with less range and damage. This move makes up for its drawbacks by dealing vampiric (life draining) damage over time.
Poison Powder (Poison): a powder based move similar to sleep powder that also does no immediate damage or knockback but causes flinching and causes damage over time.
Solar Beam (Grass): a laser beam move from the flower's center that can be charged for extra range and damage. Has a fair bit of ending lag and can't be used in rapid succession due to a cooldown time between uses.
Takedown (Normal): a forward lunge attack with a large amount of damage that can also serve as forward recovery. Has a fair amount of ending lag.
 

JOE!

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that sounds cool, making venusaur a stationary zoner that is...

and Id make Down B poisonpowder over toxic, creating a big cloud of toxic air like in the mine level in the SSE

make him slow-to move but with quick attacks, awesome grab game with vines and it's all good :p


and damnit Ryuu this isnt pokemon stadium, we can give the mons their own sets based on what they can learn throughout the games to fit their character styles.


For example, Watchog can learn thunderbolt via TM, but would he be using it in this?
 

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yes, but at the ame time you appear to be clinging a bit tightly to the Stadium1 premise.

and while it would be nice to have Prevos available, that nearly triples the amount of stuff that'd need to be done for this, which is why i suggested they be simple miniatures of their evolved selves (where it makes sense, caterpie would be nothign like Butterfree for example) and for the vs mode (which I think would be the meat of the game) I think it'd make more sense for the fully-evolved pokes to be highlighted more.


As for the move-priority stuff, id make it so that on attacks that would be SE vs each other that they go through:

Fire > Leaf/grass based attacks (except like powders or solarbeam as it's powder and light)

Water > Fire (puts it out or plows through)

Grass > Water (grass like attacks simply pass through the water while dissipating it, picture a water-stream gettign sliced in half by like razor leaf)

Elec is stopped by ground moves, yet travels straight through water, etc
 

JOE!

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double post but w/e, if this is to be limited to the 1st 151, would stuff like Magmortar & friends that came later be included?
 

ryuu seika

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That was what I was considering with the idea of a first gen based mix. Take out some of the less important ones in favour of having more of a 3 tier evolutionary system.

I'm not sure which way I'd go with that TBH.
 

JOE!

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explain what you mean by less favorable ones?

and how would the evolution deal work in a vs mode, I can see it working just fine in a story mode but...

edit:

[collapse="List"]
Venusaur
Charizard
Blastoise
Butterfree
Beedrill
Pidgeot
Raticate
Fearow
Arbok
Pikachu/Raichu (come on, its friggen pikachu)
Sandslash
Nidoqueen/Nidoking
Clefable
Ninetales
Jigglypuff/Wigglytuff
Crobat
Vileplume
Parasect
Venomoth
Dugtrio <- NOT SURE IF WORK
Persian
Golduck
Primeape
Arcanine
Poliwrath
Politoed
Alakazam
Machamp
Victreebel
Tentacruel
Golem
Rapidash
Slowbro
Slowking
Magnezone
Farfetch'd
Dodrio
Dewgong
Muk
Cloyster
Gengar
Steelix
Hypno
Kingler
Electrode <- NOT SURE IF HE CAN HAVE A FULL MOVESET
Exeggutor
Marowak
Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Hitmontop
Lickilicky
Weezing
Rhyperior
Blissey
Tangrowth
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Seaking
Starmie
Mr. Mime
Scyther
Scizor *Only poke that evolves into a variation of it's other self, as opposed t a flat-out better (stat wise) version
Jynx
Electivire
Magmortar

Pinsir
Tauros
Gyarados
Lapras
Ditto *random button?
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Flareon
Umbreon
Espeon
Glaceon
Leafeon

Porygon-Z
Omastar
Kabutops
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Dragonite
[/collapse]
 

JOE!

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so, I edited in a list of pokes to use if we are stayign with the "first 150" limit, from here I guess we could cut out pokes if they couldnt work (Seaking on any not-water stage?) and possibly add in pokes...
 

ryuu seika

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Yeah, they're not the first 150...
Anyway, I'll have a better look at it tomorrow but I just want to say, Ditto is not a random select. Ditto is an "ooh, I want that" whenever one of your opponents pokemon looks particularly good in the matchup. It's also a pokemon that changes from round to round in tournaments and is never a bad choice (except against surfing Rhydon shenanigans).
 

JOE!

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er....

the problem with ditto from a selectable roster is this: why pick ditto over a pokemon when ditto an only transform into 1 mon at a time? Ditto always has worse stats than what he's copying also...

and what do you mean theyre not the 1st 150? I included the evos of the pokes that are in the first gen as you know, theyre connected
 

FOUREYES

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I like the idea of Ditto having different stats to the pokemon it copies but yeah, it's probably best to ditch stats in favour of building them in.
On Rhydon, we'll see how it goes. What recovery move would you give him if he lost Surf though?

Anyway, I'm sticking with the pokemon stadium movesets for now but your Venusaur is looking good. As far as Pokemon stadium is concerned though, the charging for Solar Beam happens after the attack, which is odd.
Actually, no, the pokemon has to "gather energy from the sun" before it can use Solar Beam. Sunny Day makes Solar Beam instant.

Idea for a Rhydon Moveset:
I'm thinking of Rhydon as a heavy tank capable of laying down some serious KO power. He'd be hard to kill and KOs early, but slow and heavy with mediocre recovery to compensate

Neutral B - Iron Tail - The key to Rhydon's ridiculous survivability, it deals mild damage and knockback, but has super armor frames similar to Olimar's whistle. This can be used strategically to extend Rhydon's already length lifespan. When used on the ground, Rhydon turns metal and swings his tail in front of him quickly; Rhydon has super armor while he is swinging his tail. In the air, Rhydon turns metal and does a quick 360 degree flip; he has super armor during the flip (think kind of like Pika/MK's Nair's)
Side B - Bulldoze - Rhydon rushes forward quickly, knocking opponents out of the way. Can be angled up and down. Rhydon's best recovery move, think Ike's Side B without the charge.
Up B - Body Slam - Rhydon jumps into the air, then slams down onto the ground quickly. Think DDD's Up B with less up and a faster fall. Rhydon's "OH **** I'M BELOW THE STAGE AND USED MY SECOND JUMP"
Down B - Earthquake - GTFO move, covers a wide area around Rhydon, sweetspot basically touching Rhydon's body that will KO around 100%


explain what you mean by less favorable ones?

and how would the evolution deal work in a vs mode, I can see it working just fine in a story mode but...

edit:

[collapse="List"]
Venusaur
Charizard
Blastoise
Butterfree
Beedrill
Pidgeot
Raticate
Fearow
Arbok
Pikachu/Raichu (come on, its friggen pikachu)
Sandslash
Nidoqueen/Nidoking
Clefable
Ninetales
Jigglypuff/Wigglytuff
Crobat
Vileplume
Parasect
Venomoth
Dugtrio <- NOT SURE IF WORK
Persian
Golduck
Primeape
Arcanine
Poliwrath
Politoed
Alakazam
Machamp
Victreebel
Tentacruel
Golem
Rapidash
Slowbro
Slowking
Magnezone
Farfetch'd
Dodrio
Dewgong
Muk
Cloyster
Gengar
Steelix
Hypno
Kingler
Electrode <- NOT SURE IF HE CAN HAVE A FULL MOVESET
Exeggutor
Marowak
Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Hitmontop
Lickilicky
Weezing
Rhyperior
Blissey
Tangrowth
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Seaking
Starmie
Mr. Mime
Scyther
Scizor *Only poke that evolves into a variation of it's other self, as opposed t a flat-out better (stat wise) version
Jynx
Electivire
Magmortar

Pinsir
Tauros
Gyarados
Lapras
Ditto *random button?
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Flareon
Umbreon
Espeon
Glaceon
Leafeon

Porygon-Z
Omastar
Kabutops
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Dragonite
[/collapse]
I think we should straight up be Gen1 only. Here's who I'd include (taking out unusable ones like Seaking, and assuming all lower evolutions are available in story mode at least)

PokeSmash Roster:

Venusaur
Charizard
Blastoise
Butterfree
Beedrill
Pidgeot
Raticate
Fearow
Arbok
Pikachu
Raichu
Sandslash
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Clefable
Ninetails
Wigglytuff
Golbat
Vileplume
Parasect
Venomoth
Dugtrio (Permanently in the ground is a big no-no)
Persian
Golduck
Primeape
Arcanine
Poliwrath
Alakazam
Machamp
Victreebel (shame, I like Victreebel, but I just can't see it working)
Tentacruel (It'd have to float, which is stupid IMO)
Golem
Rapidash
Slowbro
Magneton
Farfetch'd
Dodrio
Dewgong (It wouldn't be smooth. Seriously. Imagine a goddamn seal in a fighting game)
Muk (Might be hard but I think it's doable, wouldn't be too hard to cross him off though)
Cloyster (How the hell would it move?)
Gengar
Onix (Maybe.)
Hypno
Kingler
Electrode (I think this is doable)
Marowak
Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Lickitung
Weezing (Floating is stupid)
Rhydon
Chansey
Tangela
Kangaskhan (lol I haven't heard about this pokemon in YEARS)
Seadra (Can't move smoothly)
Seaking (Who REALLY gives a **** about Seaking anyway?)
Starmie (I could POTENTIALLY see this one as a possibility)
Mr. Mime
Scyther
Jynx
Electabuzz
Magmar
Pinser
Tauros
Gyrados (It's ****ing Gyrados. We'll figure something out)
Lapras (Nah)
Ditto
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Flareon
Porygon
Omastar
Kabutops
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Articuno
Zapdos
Moltres
Dragonite
Mewtwo
Mew


I think Ditto should just be random, no drawbacks. I'm starting to lean towards "just final evos only" in versus mode, with the exception of Pikachu because he's goddamn Pikachu.
 

JOE!

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1) why did you take out evos of mons like Crobat/Scizor/Magmortar?

2) Closyer can move via hopping, hell if they could make ROB move...

3) Wtf would electrode do?

4) why is floating stupid? it'd simply be an animation of them slightly above ground... thats it
 

ryuu seika

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Floating is, IMO, not that big a deal, so long as it is vaguely believable that the thing could be limited to floating just off the ground. I don't see why we can't have Dewgong if Digimon Rumble Arena 2 can get Salmon. He's a seal or an otter or something. Cloyster might be difficult but is possibly workable. Electrode might have problems with basic attacks but is otherwise fine. Seadra could work as a floaty but isn't ideal. And what's wrong with Lapras?

I'm with Joe on this. Everyone but Electrode seems workable. It's just a case of cutting those that noone will miss.

On Ditto, wouldn't being random be potentially worse than being the best of your opponent's in battle three?

@Joe: They were taken out because they weren't first gen.
 

JOE!

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But they are evos of 1st gens.... and you guys are even accepting use of gen 2-5 moves

wtf?
 

ryuu seika

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Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what's going on with this TBH. We should probably go the whole hog and have the entire first gen, no more no less, or we should use the three tier evolution system wherever possible, using any generation we need to and any moves we feel like.

Also, we seem to be giving grass types nothing but grass type moves. This isn't necessarily a good thing.
 

MasterWarlord

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I do very much like the concept of this Pokemon fighting game, but RPG elements and pre-volitions only have all that much place in a story mode – the only real element from the game that I think should be carried over to the “metagame” should be type advantages. As far as pre-volutions I think the main way to squeeze them into the story mode would be to make them downgraded clones of their evolved forms when possible. For cases where this is not possible due to largely different body types (Shellder can’t be a Cloyster clone), the pre-evolved forms could just not be found in the wild. . .Or we could just eventually get around to giving those pre-evolved forms movesets, whatever.

I don’t think much customization in movesets should be allowed, much less in the specials, as that will make the individual Pokemon less unique. If there are customizable inputs (TMs) I don’t think they should overwrite any inputs the Pokemon naturally have and should be kept to a minimum. . .How about Special Smashes? That gives 3 TM moves per Pokemon and lets you get your obligatory surfing Rhydon and fire breathing Nidoking. As far as what their actual movesets contain, they should be a good bit more realistic with only TMs they should logically have anyway.

No final evolved form should be left out (From gen 1, anyway) – I come from MYM, where we’ve come up with quality movesets for Victreebel and even Electrode.

http://chiefmendez.wordpress.com/pokemon-master/1st-generation-001-151/

There’s a list of all of the 1st gen Pokemon movesets we have – be wary that the quality varies greatly from moveset to moveset, but there are plenty of usable movesets in there. Some personal recommendations from me that I feel are –definitely- good enough for use in this game:

  • Venusaur
  • Pidgeot
  • Arbok
  • Sandslash
  • Clefable
  • Ninetales
  • Zubat
  • Diglett
  • Psyduck
  • Arcanine
  • Abra
  • Victreebel
  • Golem
  • Muk
  • Shellder
  • Haunter
  • Hypno
  • Electrode
  • Exeggutor
  • Marowak
  • Weezing
  • Kangaskhan
  • Tauros
  • Vaporeon
  • Jolteon
  • Flareon
  • Snorlax
  • Mewtwo

Keep in mind that these movesets are made for Smash Bros though, which assumes that the stage is elevated up into the air and takes recovery into account, meaning some of them would not work nearly as well in a fighting game with traditional stages. For example, what makes Venusaur balanced is his terrible recovery – ported to a traditional fighting game he’d be a god.
 

ryuu seika

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The idea of customisation has been all but abandoned at this stage and while I'm personally in favour of differentiating the prevoltions, others aren't.
We plan on using the SSB system so change of balance due to game setting shouldn't be an issue.

Here's a list of special moves I see as viable choices for Venusaur, though I'll definitely look at your list before finalising anything. Some are obviously better than others:
Frustration
Solar Beam
Vine Whip
Poison Powder
Sleep Powder
Tackle
Razor Leaf
Synthesis
Body Slam
Headbutt
Bullet Seed
Earthquake
Light Screen
Bulldoze
Grass Knot

EDIT: I think the fact that basic moves are not named moves makes this idea rather different from the MYM stuff but it should still be helpful. I'm also wondering if it would be a good idea to ditch grabs in favour of a real time pokemon switch.
 

FOUREYES

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Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what's going on with this TBH. We should probably go the whole hog and have the entire first gen, no more no less, or we should use the three tier evolution system wherever possible, using any generation we need to and any moves we feel like.
Alright, I personally don't see any problem with using out-of-gen moves; I've just been pushing to limit this to first gen so we don't get too ahead of ourselves in terms of trying to do all 500ish pokemon at once.

Also, we seem to be giving grass types nothing but grass type moves. This isn't necessarily a good thing.
Oh, right. I'm getting ahead of myself a bit then.

I'd say Venusaur should use Poison Powder (poison type) as a significant part of its play style.
If you guys looked at the moveset I did for Venusaur, it included toxic, which I feel is more appropriate for Venusaur than poison powder, but that's just me.

EDIT: I think the fact that basic moves are not named moves makes this idea rather different from the MYM stuff but it should still be helpful. I'm also wondering if it would be a good idea to ditch grabs in favour of a real time pokemon switch.
I think it was discussed earlier, and was decided that taunts would be ditched for pokemon switching; this gives you a five pokemon team that you can easily switch between at any time.

A little bit on switching, actually: I think it should be fast enough that you could potentially do multi-pokemon combos, but slow enough to punishable if used at the wrong time. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
 

MasterWarlord

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What the OP suggested with taunts is the best way to go for switching, IMO, as those are the most extendable inputs. Grabs are also a largely necessary feature if any form of shielding/blocking are going to be in the game.

If we specifically limit the moves to only Pokemon moves, the movesets will either be far too small to allow for much variety, or movesets will awkwardly differ in size of inputs based off how many reasonable moves the Pokemon can learn.

On Venusaur Toxic vs. Poisonpowder. . .Toxic is generally more generic what with it being a TM and poisonpowder makes more sense for it. Toxic works best on pure Poison type Pokemon like Muk and company.
 

ryuu seika

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I'm fine with using out of generation moves too but there does seem to be an odd inconsistency with using Iron Tail but not Pichu, for example.

I had forgotten the exact details of your moveset and at the time I read it, I had not realised that poison was its own type. I still prefer Poison Powder to Toxic as shooting out gunk seems less normal for a flower pokemon than using pollen.

I had expected switching to be limited to the normal 6 pokemon per tournament, 3 per battle rules, just because that's the only way I've ever know it to work. I missed the point where taunt switching was mentioned but it makes a lot of sense.

IMO there should be no chance of muti pokemon combos but terrain changes (eg Sunny Day) and status effects on the opponent such as poison would still lead to interaction between your team. Note that if you swap out a pokemon with poison, the replacement will not have poison but the original pokemon will still have it when swapped back in.

Movesets will not be limited to pokemon moves. Movesets will be pokemon moves for specials and generic moves for everything else. Where possible, prevos will have the same basic moves but should, IMO atleast, have different specials.
 

FOUREYES

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If we specifically limit the moves to only Pokemon moves, the movesets will either be far too small to allow for much variety, or movesets will awkwardly differ in size of inputs based off how many reasonable moves the Pokemon can learn.
I think that in terms of moveset design, the specials should generally be moves that make sense given the typing, attributes, and playstyle of the pokemon. For example, when I decided to make a Venusaur moveset, I looked at his base stats, and noticed that the two highest were Special Attack and Special Defense, so I decided to try and make him more of a stationary ranged character that worked by keeping people away and throwing leaves/uncharged solarbeams at them.

TL;DR - I think that only the specials should be specifically pokemon moves, and that they should at least KIND OF make sense with the pokemon's playstyle.

On Venusaur Toxic vs. Poisonpowder. . .Toxic is generally more generic what with it being a TM and poisonpowder makes more sense for it. Toxic works best on pure Poison type Pokemon like Muk and company.
That makes sense.
 

ryuu seika

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I definitely agree, foureyes, though I get the feeling that Venusaur should have to start and end the battle close up. I see him poisoning at close range, then forcing the enemy away until they've taken enough damage for him to finish things with a single good hit, at which point they are forced to approach as they need to do some damage themselves. If he has problems with that last hit, he can always be swapped out for someone better suited to the job.

EDIT: I'd say we can ditch Vine Whip from the list of potential moves and have it as a tether grab for Venusaur and his prevos instead. This means can either rely upon it for recovery or have Body Slam for up B. It's entirely up to you lot.

EDIT 2: So?

Grab: Vine Whip

Neutral B: ?
Solar Beam
Light Screen
Grass Knot
Razor Leaf
Tackle
Synthesis
Poison Powder
Sleep Powder
Bullet Seed

Side B: ?
Bulldoze
Light Screen
Grass Knot
Razor Leaf
Tackle
Headbutt
Bullet Seed

Up B: ?
Body Slam
Bullet Seed
Synthesis
Poison Powder
Sleep Powder
Razor Leaf
Solar Beam

Down B: ?
Frustration (as in his SSB appearances)
Earthquake
Grass Knot
Synthesis
Poison Powder
Sleep Powder

IMO Solar Beam and Poison Powder are the two must have moves.
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
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Messages
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alright, so how about we start this off by asking this crucial q:

when we say smash mechanics,a re we talking about just the way combat works or the whole system of KOing + Recovering?

that *will* shape the way we design pokes for this as without need for recovery, pokemon movement and "recovery" moves would be odd / different...


Also, I suggest Venusaur play like a stationary tank of sorts, with good long range attacks and poison damage to make up for his mobility.

Zard could be a high mobility, high damage racking character but is much frailer than Venusaur/Blastoise

Blastoise could play with his ability to cause tons of KB with his walls of water to be a defensive bruiser


but I cant really go further until i know exactly what we plan on havign the combat like
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
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ok then.

Venusuar should be more or less like Ivysaur in brawl IMO, but with a much clearer focus on spacing / disjoint and worse mobility (in exchange for bulk), and should have vine-whip as Up B using two vines
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
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Messages
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the angle, samus still needs Screw Attack alot of the time and she has a friggen *epic* Zair
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
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Messages
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at that point why not make it a special grab with Up B being able to snag aerial foes, and normal grab letting you go to throws
 

ryuu seika

Smash Master
Joined
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Amidst the abounding light of heaven!
Maybe just make the Z move angleable?

EDIT: I've been thinking, what if we had exactly 6 pokemon that were evolutions of those that were highest evolutions in generation one, specifically for Mewtwo to outclass everyone with at the end of story mode, shortly before he fights you himself?

EDIT 2: Possible candidates:
Magmortar
Crowbat
Slowking
Magnezone
Steelix
Hitmontop
Lickilicky
Rhyperior
Blissey
Tangrowth
Kingdra
Scizor
Electivire
Espeon
Umbreon
Leafeon
Glaceon
Porygon 2
Porygon Z
 
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