Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Kumashock]

The first point seems to depend on whether or not a game has a noticeable competitive scene. Which Smash does.
Regarding the second point, they got people from Bandai-Namco to do the game, and they still support Tekken 7.

Splatoon 2 has a big scene supported a lot by Nintendo in Japan and even then meaningful DLC is mostly over for some time and even splatfests are ending. And that's with a Nintendo team, with no need to pay another company, and less crunchy development.

I just don't see a second pass, 1 or 2 "bonus" characters is the most I can imagine. Not like I can't be wrong of course, just giving my expectations.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Splatoon 2 has a big scene supported a lot by Nintendo in Japan and even then meaningful DLC is mostly over for some time and even splatfests are ending. And that's with a Nintendo team, with no need to pay another company, and less crunchy development.

I just don't see a second pass, 1 or 2 "bonus" characters is the most I can imagine. Not like I can't be wrong of course, just giving my expectations.

Splatoon 2 got a very long life of DLC, with tons of free additions and Octo Expansion which is an entire new campaign.

 

[StormC]

I think a difference is that Banjo-Kazooie was a genuine prestige game for the N64. It received a ton of hype both within and out of the industry. For years there was coverage of this big upcoming Rareware game for the N64, showings at E3, etc. It was a big game for both Nintendo and the industry in general, to the point where there are still copycats of it being made to this day. People who work in the industry, like Sakurai, no doubt remember the big media storm and hype surrounding the original game. Lord knows Nintendo Power covered the game endlessly.

Golden Sun received a pretty big advertising push, but while it has its diehard fans, it just never attained that level of prestige. People who work in the industry don't think of Golden Sun as a landmark game the same way they do for Banjo-Kazooie. The ability to "bring Banjo home" is an easy PR win for both Nintendo and Microsoft as so many people remember the tragic Rare split and saw the loss of Banjo as one of the biggest casualties of it.

That's my two cents anyway. That and competition for the base roster was brutal; Isaac was competing with iconic characters like King K. Rool, Ridley, and Simon Belmont, in addition to the locked-in Inkling and new Pokemon. And with only third parties on the Fighters Pass... that's sadly all she wrote.

Nobody can say what the future will hold, all said.

 

[Kumashock]

Splatoon 2 got a very long life of DLC, with tons of free additions and Octo Expansion which is an entire new campaign.

I'm not saying it's bad DLC, the content is really good itself, but it's still an online based game that will stop getting updates with only 2 years of development and that stopped getting brand new stages and weapons for some time already.

What I'm trying to say is more that Nintendo isn't pushing devs to keep making more Splatoon 2 content even if it makes sense to keep the game selling and players engaged, Ultimate will go over a year of development for the last character + possible a few months of balancing. At most I can see like 1 or 2 characters, but I don't expect another pass. But this is just my personal view on it.

I think a difference is that Banjo-Kazooie was a genuine prestige game for the N64. It received a ton of hype both within and out of the industry. For years there was coverage of this big upcoming Rareware game for the N64, showings at E3, etc. It was a big game for both Nintendo and the industry in general, to the point where there are still copycats of it being made to this day. People who work in the industry, like Sakurai, no doubt remember the big media storm and hype surrounding the original game. Lord knows Nintendo Power covered the game endlessly.

Golden Sun received a pretty big advertising push, but while it has its diehard fans, it just never attained that level of prestige. People who work in the industry don't think of Golden Sun as a landmark game the same way they do for Banjo-Kazooie. The ability to "bring Banjo home" is an easy PR win for both Nintendo and Microsoft as so many people remember the tragic Rare split and saw the loss of Banjo as one of the biggest casualties of it.

Not contesting Banjo's history, but Golden Sun is kind of a landmark GBA release as well, with a 91 score on Metacritic. The games sold over two million units worldwide and the series has more sales than Banjo in Japan. It can also be said that a character like Isaac could represent the history of Camelot, a developer that went from being a Sega studio and renomed for the great Shining games, to a Nintendo partner producing so many hit games for them over the years.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'm not saying it's bad DLC, the content is really good itself, but it's still an online based game that will stop getting updates with only 2 years of development and that stopped getting brand new stages and weapons for some time already.

What I'm trying to say is more that Nintendo isn't pushing devs to keep making more Splatoon 2 content even if it makes sense to keep the game selling and players engaged, Ultimate will go over a year of development for the last character + possible a few months of balancing. At most I can see like 1 or 2 characters, but I don't expect another pass. But this is just my personal view on it.


Not contesting Banjo's history, but Golden Sun is kind of a landmark GBA release as well, with a 91 score on Metacritic. The games sold over two million units worldwide and the series has more sales than Banjo in Japan. It can also be said that a character like Isaac could represent the history of Camelot, a developer that went from being a Sega studio and renomed for the great Shining games, to a Nintendo partner producing so many hit games for them over the years.

Well yeah, but if Splatoon 2 got two years of DLC it stands to reason that Smash could get that as well.

 

[StormC]

Not contesting Banjo's history, but Golden Sun is kind of a landmark GBA release as well, with a 91 score on Metacritic. The games sold over two million units worldwide and the series has more sales than Banjo in Japan. It can also be said that a character like Isaac could represent the history of Camelot, a developer that went from being a Sega studio and renomed for the great Shining games, to a Nintendo partner producing so many hit games for them over the years.

The N64 sold dreadfully in Japan though. It sold less than the Sega Saturn. The GBA sold more than 3x the N64 in Japan, but despite that, no single Golden Sun game sold as much as the original Banjo-Kazooie there. Regardless, it was a big game for Nintendo as a company, even Nintendo Of Japan. They even had a subway train marketing it.

On the official site for Banjo Kazooie, check out this page on the BK themed train in Japan! @WinkySteve @grantkirkhope https://t.co/uN9s5Vhc1r pic.twitter.com/yaCjJFE80j

— Andrew (Beta64) (@Beta64Official) February 7, 2018

The game was a major feature at E3 1997 with statues promoting it:

Spoiler

The game was released at the peak of Rare's popularity and was highly anticipated by people watching the industry closely:

Spoiler

Golden Sun got great reviews and has a following, but what is its impact on the industry? Which developers making games cite it as an influence? When has game journalism drummed it up significantly in the last 20 years? How does Camelot's catalogue compare to Rareware's?

I realize this sounds very negative and down putting of Golden Sun. It's just that I think the Banjo IP holds a special clout within the industry that both Nintendo and Microsoft see as worth capitalizing on, and that's a big reason why Banjo got in despite his franchise being dead.

You can disagree, but one character is in and the other isn't, and it's probably worth considering why.

 

[StrawHatX]

You can disagree, but one character is in and the other isn't, and it's probably worth considering why.

Because one is a third party character that fits in with the theme of the Fighter Pass and one isn’t.

Why are we trying to debate the importance of one character to another? This game has Piranha Plant as a playable character because Sakurai thought it’d be funny and unexpected.

Why hasn’t Sakurai made Isaac playable yet? Who knows. Golden Sun was a critically acclaimed series on the GBA that sold millions and Nintendo promoted on the boxes of the GBA and SP. It is still considered one of the best looking GBA games ever.

Pretty silly trying to justify why one character got in when one didn’t. Sakurai just kind of does what he wants usually. I’m happy Banjo got in. He was my second most wanted. I have fond childhood memories of playing the games on my N64.

Banjo had the fortune of being a great platformer on a home consoles during the golden age of platformers. Golden Sun was Nintendo’s answer to RPG’s on their own consoles and it did amazingly well. Honestly, that seems like a much bigger accomplishment to me considering how Nintendo was not known for RPG’s at all.

 

[StormC]

Why are we trying to debate the importance of one character to another? This game has Piranha Plant as a playable character because Sakurai thought it’d be funny and unexpected.

Some characters are a Piranha Plant, but not every character is a Piranha Plant. Sakurai likes to keep people on their toes, but he isn't a Willy Wonka type who just adds random characters all the time. He also explained how despite not being a main character, Piranha Plant is "a character everyone knows well." I think it's a falsehood to attribute character selection in Smash to "oh, Sakurai just does whatever he wants." He frequently discusses thoughtfully why he puts in the characters he does.

I want Isaac in Smash, for the record. He's one of the few long-requesting characters left who has the credentials to be in. But I think we have to consider Isaac's unique situation and his obstacles. I've always been of the belief that enough fan demand can make a character overcome their "flaws" in Sakurai's mind, barring characters that are legal nightmares to license, so Isaac's best bet is to keep the flame alive.

One thing that would be really good is if GBA games get added to Switch; people can then post screencaps on social media and share the game with others. If people are still talking about the character and series two decades later, there's clearly something that clicks with them. Hopefully it continues to do so.

 

[StrawHatX]

Some characters are a Piranha Plant, but not every character is a Piranha Plant. Sakurai likes to keep people on their toes, but he isn't a Willy Wonka type who just adds random characters all the time. He also explained how despite not being a main character, Piranha Plant is "a character everyone knows well." I think it's a falsehood to attribute character selection in Smash to "oh, Sakurai just does whatever he wants." He frequently discusses thoughtfully why he puts in the characters he does.

I want Isaac in Smash, for the record. He's one of the few long-requesting characters left who has the credentials to be in. But I think we have to consider Isaac's unique situation and his obstacles. I've always been of the belief that enough fan demand can make a character overcome their "flaws" in Sakurai's mind, barring characters that are legal nightmares to license, so Isaac's best bet is to keep the flame alive.

One thing that would be really good is if GBA games get added to Switch; people can then post screencaps on social media and share the game with others. If people are still talking about the character and series two decades later, there's clearly something that clicks with them. Hopefully it continues to do so.

Regardless of obstacles or credentials a lot of times it really does just come down to if Sakurai and his team want to add a character or not. You have a character like Waluigi who has had a very vocal fanbase since pre-Brawl and Sakurai refuses to make him playable. Why? Who knows. It’s not like he’s unaware of his popularity.

I agree the only thing fans can do is keep voicing their wanted characters and hope for the best. That’s really all we can do.

 

[Kumashock]

I really don't think there's that much difference between the characters honestly, you can nitpick things that make one or other look better, but in the end they're in that mid-tier of franchises with few games with decent sales and good critical reviews. They have unique different appealing points and historical relevance, but doesn't mean Isaac is "inferior" as a pick. He makes as much sense and I think this was down to Nintendo choosing to focus on third parties in the DLC, if the plan from the start was having more first party picks, I think Isaac would already be planned from the go to be a DLC character instead of an Assist.

I disagree with the whole "Sakurai has no criteria" thing, but Isaac certainly fits other picks as he has fan demand, good selling games and historical relevance.

 

[StormC]

Regardless of obstacles or credentials a lot of times it really does just come down to if Sakurai and his team want to add a character or not. You have a character like Waluigi who has had a very vocal fanbase since pre-Brawl and Sakurai refuses to make him playable. Why? Who knows. It’s not like he’s unaware of his popularity.

I agree the only thing fans can do is keep voicing their wanted characters and hope for the best. That’s really all we can do.

I honestly think Waluigi will get into Smash 6. He's had fans but the nothing like the outcry against the AT now. Major news publications like Time were commenting on it. Even Reggie issued a statement about it. There has been no tangible backlash or quantity to the fan demand until recently.

 

[StrawHatX]

I honestly think Waluigi will get into Smash 6. He's had fans but the nothing like the outcry against the AT now. Major news publications like Time were commenting on it. Even Reggie issued a statement about it. There has been no tangible backlash or quantity to the fan demand until recently.

I’ve never been a big Waluigi fan, but I definitely felt their pain when he was AT’d for a third time and Sakurai decided to make a Piranha Plant playable. That’s kind of like the ultimate slap in the face.

Waluigi is arguably the last main Mario character that hasn’t been made playable and a generic Mario enemy gets makes the cut. It’s actually more of an obstacle than an enemy, which kind of makes it worse. But at least the Plant is pretty fun to play as.

 

[Kumashock]

I’ve never been a big Waluigi fan, but I definitely felt their pain when he was AT’d for a third time and Sakurai decided to make a Piranha Plant playable. That’s kind of like the ultimate slap in the face.

Waluigi is arguably the last main Mario character that hasn’t been made playable and a generic Mario enemy gets makes the cut. It’s actually more of an obstacle than an enemy, which kind of makes it worse. But at least the Plant is pretty fun to play as.

Well, but Plant is a character from actual mainline Mario games. Japan also has no Waluigi memes or obssession, they even joke about not understanding why foreigners like him.

Not trying to put down Waluigi fans, but I don't think it's fair to compare him to other fan requested characters because people in the dev team probably just see him as a not very important spin-off character.

 

[StrawHatX]

Well, but Plant is a character from actual mainline Mario games. Japan also has no Waluigi memes or obssession, they even joke about not understanding why foreigners like him.

Not trying to put down Waluigi fans, but I don't think it's fair to compare him to other fan requested characters because people in the dev team probably just see him as a not very important spin-off character.

That’s fair. I can see that. And I know PP is an actual character. So is a Goomba. I personally would rather see named characters get in, but I don’t hate PP and I think he’s pretty fun.

If we get more DLC after the Fighter Pass I really do hope we’re done with Mario characters though. I think we have more than enough.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Splatoon 2 has a big scene supported a lot by Nintendo in Japan and even then meaningful DLC is mostly over for some time and even splatfests are ending. And that's with a Nintendo team, with no need to pay another company, and less crunchy development.

I just don't see a second pass, 1 or 2 "bonus" characters is the most I can imagine. Not like I can't be wrong of course, just giving my expectations.

A new Splatoon is easier to make than a new Smash I imagine. It’s more likely we get a Splatoon 3 on Switch before a new Smash. Especially cause Ultimate is gonna be HARD to compete to.

 

[TempestSurge]

Given that Nintendo picked a popular requested favorite for this pass in Banjo, I could easily see this pass being a one and done deal as I expected this pass to strictly be picks along the lines of Joker and that fan favorites like Banjo would have a better shot in a hypothetical second pass.

You know I didn't really grow up with Banjo so I couldn't really explode in hype like most, only gotten to know him through Smash speculation cycles so his reveal is being happy for the BanjoBros in getting their long awaited character.

So as much as I can only hope that I get that moment with Isaac. I really don't get why it's so common for Isaac and Golden Sun to have to have to constantly battle the accomplishments of the newcomer and their series. Banjo had significant achievements and yet the character still got dragged during speculation, was seen as unrealistic, fan wish fulfillment that was never going to happen. I don think he's solely in cause of notable achievements. I'll still say this is all on the fans continued support and determination to get their character in. And when Isaac is added, I'll say the same thing. Even though Golden Sun has impressive feats, if Nintendo adds him, the fans had a great hand in that.

 

[N3ON]

Spoiler: Large post

Sure, but Sony and Microsoft don’t have a series like Smash that’s a celebration of video game characters. If Sony had Smash and Nintendo didn’t I could see Mario making an appearance.

I suspect you might be in short company thinking Nintendo would ever share Mario with Sony under current conditions.

Business is always going to be the first step before the contents of the game.

I don’t know how relevant Sackboy is right now, but if Sakurai really wanted him and went to Sony about his inclusion then why wouldn’t Sony want to advertise him and that series that they own?

Most competitors don't collaborate because it's typically undesirable to funnel fans of your IP to a rival's product. There's a reason it barely ever happens. What Microsoft is doing is very abnormal, hence all the fervour around it.

So, how likely is it that we might get a second fighter pass? Taking in account that Sakurai is probably very very tired and all

As an evergreen title with a huge install base, and DLC Nintendo knows resounds enough that they choose to basically bookend their E3 with it, the argument for continued support makes sense.

That said, Nintendo has never had a problem cutting off DLC when they still could've continued profiting from it. I don't doubt the sales decline the further we get from release, but I suspect, despite the points in favour of more, Nintendo will see greater merit in moving on to new projects.

Just a guess though.

if Nintendo wants it they'll do it, sakurai or no

True, if they're insistent, they'll get it done without him. But I also think Nintendo respects Sakurai enough to have compromised with one "season", given he's not a huge fan of DLC to begin with.

Not contesting Banjo's history, but Golden Sun is kind of a landmark GBA release as well, with a 91 score on Metacritic. The games sold over two million units worldwide and the series has more sales than Banjo in Japan. It can also be said that a character like Isaac could represent the history of Camelot, a developer that went from being a Sega studio and renomed for the great Shining games, to a Nintendo partner producing so many hit games for them over the years.

Whether a game is well received critically doesn't inherently correlate to it being treated as a major title. Banjo received the triple-A treatment from Nintendo, iirc it was to be their holiday game of 97 before it got delayed. GS achieved heights above and beyond a typical game in its situation, and that's part of the reason the fanbase still exists today, but even back then it was outclassed by a series like Pikmin, which itself was outclassed by Banjo.

Sales-wise, the GS series rests somewhere just over 3 million (depending on DD's numbers, which were never released). In perspective, Banjo's first game outsold the whole series. I also really doubt it sold better in Japan than Banjo did, considering GS always performed better in the west.

GS is fondly remembered, sure, but it's not the same tier as Banjo was. I mean, had Rare not been bought, Banjo would've been included in Brawl. And Golden Sun, sadly, still isn't.

 

[StrawHatX]

Honestly at this point I don’t think there’s any reason to keep talking about if we believe “X” would do “Y”. Because we’re just getting into what we think someone would do and we really have no idea.

I understand where you’re coming from. I get why you don’t think it was possible for Sakurai to get Banjo’s rights for Smash 4. I think he could have if he really wanted to.

I think(?) this whole thing started because we were trying to compare Banjo and Isaac’s legacies with one another? Either way, both Banjo-Kazooie and Golden Sun were successful and are fondly remembered and I am extremely happy Banjo is in Smash. He has always been my second most wanted and it is a dream come true.

 

[FlawedAI]

Honestly, Banjo's and Isaac's legacies follow similar paths: two extremely well-received games, sold gangbusters for their consoles, and as such the characters became pseudo-mascots for the N64 and GBA, respectively, while the third game in the series wasn't what fans wanted, and sold worse than the first two, leading to a series hiatus.

I think the reason Banjo was so requested is not just due to nostalgia, but because he was like a "forbidden fruit", almost, since he was owned by Microsoft. Imagine if Camelot was bought by Microsoft, would we see the same fan demand for Isaac? That's something to consider.

Finally, in regards to Banjo's nostalgia factor: I think it's important to remember that we see a ton of YouTubers who say "oh, I grew with Banjo so I'll push him because he's a childhood favorite", while we never really see that with Isaac. And again, I think timing is the reason for this. The GBA exists in such a strange limbo of being neither "retro" nor "modern", and as such, doesn't get to take advantage of the lenient "requirements" for characters from retro or modern consoles. Therefore, we don't have prominent gaming figures who "grew up" with Isaac and Golden Sun, because those people are just not becoming adults, so they don't have much of an influence yet. I imagine as these figures grow up, we'll see more people pushing Golden Sun/Isaac as childhood classics.

 

[StrawHatX]

Honestly, Banjo's and Isaac's legacies follow similar paths: two extremely well-received games, sold gangbusters for their consoles, and as such the characters became pseudo-mascots for the N64 and GBA, respectively, while the third game in the series wasn't what fans wanted, and sold worse than the first two, leading to a series hiatus.

I think the reason Banjo was so requested is not just due to nostalgia, but because he was like a "forbidden fruit", almost, since he was owned by Microsoft. Imagine if Camelot was bought by Microsoft, would we see the same fan demand for Isaac? That's something to consider.

Finally, in regards to Banjo's nostalgia factor: I think it's important to remember that we see a ton of YouTubers who say "oh, I grew with Banjo so I'll push him because he's a childhood favorite", while we never really see that with Isaac. And again, I think timing is the reason for this. The GBA exists in such a strange limbo of being neither "retro" nor "modern", and as such, doesn't get to take advantage of the lenient "requirements" for characters from retro or modern consoles. Therefore, we don't have prominent gaming figures who "grew up" with Isaac and Golden Sun, because those people are just not becoming adults, so they don't have much of an influence yet. I imagine as these figures grow up, we'll see more people pushing Golden Sun/Isaac as childhood classics.

I think there is a bit of bias for home consoles over portable consoles. When a lot of people talk about greatest games of all time it usually refers to a home console game like Ocarina of Time or FF7. Like you said the GBA is old, but maybe not old enough to consider retro. Although I personally believe it is.

I’m happy Golden Sun is a GBA title and I think it worked out great for Nintendo. But I do wonder what would have happened if it was released for the N64 like I believe it was originally supposed to do.

 

[NessAtc.]

I think there is a bit of bias for home consoles over portable consoles. When a lot of people talk about greatest games of all time it usually refers to a home console game like Ocarina of Time or FF7. Like you said the GBA is old, but maybe not old enough to consider retro. Although I personally believe it is.

I’m happy Golden Sun is a GBA title and I think it worked out great for Nintendo. But I do wonder what would have happened if it was released for the N64 like I believe it was originally supposed to do.

it's hard to tell, since it was being made for the N64 when it was on it's way out. It probably would have ended up being even more forgotten

 

[Gioka]

To be honest the thing that saddens me the most regarding Isaac's inclusion or lack of it is that he is one of the few fan requested characters that Sakurai just has never addressed. We don't know the reason why originally Isaac only made it to AT status, while most of the others we have gotten some word or input on reasons.

 

[FlawedAI]

To be honest the thing that saddens me the most regarding Isaac's inclusion or lack of it is that he is one of the few fan requested characters that Sakurai just has never addressed. We don't know the reason why originally Isaac only made it to AT status, while most of the others we have gotten some word or input on reasons.

Honestly, it seems like Sakurai just straight up does not know how to handle this situation. If it's true that Nintendo was caught off-guard by the backlash to Isaac's Assist, then Sakurai may be unable to give a reason outside of: "We actually thought you wanted the Assist back, lol." He's in an unfortunate situation here, with upset fans that don't have the whole story, while he can't give them context without blowing wide open the development of the game. I think we need to get somebody to convince Sakurai to play Golden Sun so he finally understands the fanbase!

 

[hustler713]

Honestly, it seems like Sakurai just straight up does not know how to handle this situation. If it's true that Nintendo was caught off-guard by the backlash to Isaac's Assist, then Sakurai may be unable to give a reason outside of: "We actually thought you wanted the Assist back, lol." He's in an unfortunate situation here, with upset fans that don't have the whole story, while he can't give them context without blowing wide open the development of the game. I think we need to get somebody to convince Sakurai to play Golden Sun so he finally understands the fanbase!

I'm pretty sure he played it. The beautiful remix in brawl. Music in Smash 4, plus two pretty accurate assists.

 

[NessAtc.]

Honestly, it seems like Sakurai just straight up does not know how to handle this situation. If it's true that Nintendo was caught off-guard by the backlash to Isaac's Assist, then Sakurai may be unable to give a reason outside of: "We actually thought you wanted the Assist back, lol." He's in an unfortunate situation here, with upset fans that don't have the whole story, while he can't give them context without blowing wide open the development of the game. I think we need to get somebody to convince Sakurai to play Golden Sun so he finally understands the fanbase!

I don't buy the whole "we actually thought you wanted the assist back" seeing as we voted for him on the FIGHTER ballot. If that's what he really thought, then he doesn't know what he and Nintendo ran 4 years ago

 

[StrawHatX]

I don't buy the whole "we actually thought you wanted the assist back" seeing as we voted for him on the FIGHTER ballot. If that's what he really thought, then he doesn't know what he and Nintendo ran 4 years ago

I don’t buy it either. They used the ballot to figure out who people wanted and then Sakurai and his team decided who they wanted to make playable out of it. I know it was kind of a running joke that Sakurai hates Camelot, but maybe he secretly does lol

 

[Deleted member]

We're bound to have a Nintendo character be part of the Fighter's Pass, at this rate. Honestly, there just aren't that many characters left that will cause an audience go "HOLY S***!" like Banjo-Kazooie did. I mean, most will likely get some level of acceptance of varying quality, although a character like Steve would most likely get the same level of derision that Hero got in the West, but I feel like if they are going to continue with this going forward, or even do a future Fighter's Pass, they might change gears and put in a first-party character.

However, they'll likely avoid the trappings like last time and put in Edelgard like they did with Corrin, and maybe, just maybe, do the unthinkable; promote an Assist Trophy. I'm just wishing at this point, and more than likely, the developers have long decided that if a character is designated as an AT, that's their spot in the game, warts and all (some of the ATs kind of morph awkwardly when they interact, considering that you're not intended to zoom in and examine them frame-by-frame).

It's both a blessing and curse that, by the process of elimination, Isaac's been moved to the front of the line; Isaac is now on top of a pile of characters yet to become playable, but the arguments against him are even more damning as he IS in the game already.

 

[N3ON]

I agree that it’s not “we thought you wanted the AT back”, it’s probably that they just didn’t anticipate vitriol and meltdowns considering no reveals bar Waluigi prompted such a reaction. Other deconfirmations like Bomberman, Lyn, Krystal, Shovel Knight, even Ashley didn’t generate such a visceral response, so it probably caught them off guard.

But, if the extreme reaction ends up helping Isaac, I suppose it's all for the greater good.

 

[NessAtc.]

and more than likely, the developers have long decided that if a character is designated as an AT, that's their spot in the game

...except that's not how literally every fighting game approaches npcs? many NPCs in fighting games go on to become playable characters, whether it be in the next game or in dlc.

 

[StrawHatX]

I don’t believe in the Paragon leak. But if it is true then there is some hope Isaac could make the jump to playable after the Fighter Pass.

If of course we get more DLC.

 

[Deleted member]

...except that's not how literally every fighting game approaches npcs? many NPCs in fighting games go on to become playable characters, whether it be in the next game or in dlc.

Smash Bros. has only promoted three Assist Trophies to playable status in the series; Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle, and all three were made playable in the next game, with Dark Samus being an Echo Fighter. Until they decide to shock the world and promote an Assist Trophy that's already in Ultimate to playable status, that's the philosophy they seem to have established. I know that's an incorrect outlook to have, but considering how much of an afterthought Assist Trophies are, where the fan consensus went originally from potentially being a stepping stone for future fighters to a glass ceiling that just exists to taunt you as to how tantalizingly close they are, but it seems unlikely.

 

[Organization XIII]

I don't really get why AT promotions seem like such a far-fetched idea to people ATs have been upgraded to playable and we've literally only had one complete set of DLC so far. Maybe if this was the fifth round of DLC we had where no ATs were promoted I could understand but right now there's literally nothing saying it can't happen besides fans themselves. Fan rules are so constantly broken in the Smash community it's a wonder people still continue to cling to them

 

[StrawHatX]

I don't really get why AT promotions seem like such a far-fetched idea to people ATs have been upgraded to playable and we've literally only had one complete set of DLC so far. Maybe if this was the fifth round of DLC we had where no ATs were promoted I could understand but right now there's literally nothing saying it can't happen besides fans themselves. Fan rules are so constantly broken in the Smash community it's a wonder people still continue to cling to them

They’ve never been upgraded to playable status in the same game before. Could totally happen. But since it hasn’t people are doubtful.

Then of course some people think Ultimate’s DLC will be done after the Fighter Pass.

If there was ever going to be a Smash game that upgrades AT’s to playable it would be this one. I think we will have quite a bit of DLC after the Pass, but it’s just my opinion. Part of me kind of wants Waluigi to be in the Fighter Pass just to break the fan rule of AT’s meaning impossible to become playable.

Guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

I don’t believe in the Paragon leak. But if it is true then there is some hope Isaac could make the jump to playable after the Fighter Pass.

If of course we get more DLC.

Paragon leak? What is it?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Paragon leak? What is it?

A leak that says Fighter 4 will be an Undertale character that may or may not be Sans, and 5 will be Waluigi. My main reason for doubting the leak is that I don't think the amount of content characters in this pass are supposed to come with will work for Waluigi.

 

[ZelDan]

Didn't the Paragon leaker not have his "leak" uploaded until the day before E3? he might have just had special access to Nintendo's E3 Nintendo Direct and decided to take advantage of the situation and screw around with people.

 

[Tetiro]

Didn't the Paragon leaker not have his "leak" uploaded until the day before E3? he might have just had special access to Nintendo's E3 Nintendo Direct and decided to take advantage of the situation and screw around with people.

This is what I was thinking too. After all, no-one leaked BotW 2 and that was coincidentally the only thing not in the full Direct video shared in advance. And that is something far more exciting than Banjo for the Switch games (being brutal here)

It wouldn't surprise me if more leakers than that VR Plant leaker got their hands on the video and this new leaker just tacked on new "leaks" to make his spicy.

But if an AT did get promoted, Sakurai would have shattered the final rule that holds everyone currently in Smash or originally in Smash down.

For that, it wouldn't matter who got promoted. Just as long as that horrible rule is gone for good.

Also, it's awesome that Isaac is now really high up on top of the pile. Who actually is there against us now? I think it is just Waluigi, Geno and Bandana Dee. And Geno could be in the Fighter Pass.

 

[N3ON]

This is what I was thinking too. After all, no-one leaked BotW 2 and that was coincidentally the only thing not in the full Direct video shared in advance. And that is something far more exciting than Banjo for the Switch games (being brutal here)

It wouldn't surprise me if more leakers than that VR Plant leaker got their hands on the video and this new leaker just tacked on new "leaks" to make his spicy.

But if an AT did get promoted, Sakurai would have shattered the final rule that holds everyone currently in Smash or originally in Smash down.

For that, it wouldn't matter who got promoted. Just as long as that horrible rule is gone for good.

If that glass ceiling shatters without Sakurai impressing the finality of the roster upon us, Isaac will get very very popular, very very quickly.

Also, it's awesome that Isaac is now really high up on top of the pile. Who actually is there against us now? I think it is just Waluigi, Geno and Bandana Dee. And Geno could be in the Fighter Pass.

Just Waluigi and Geno, really. Tbh, despite being the only first-party candidate not hindered by existing representation, it really seems like Bandana Dee's demand has taken a nosedive. Maybe it's just resting, or maybe it's that chronic lack of recognition which has dampened expectations.

 

[FlawedAI]

This is what I was thinking too. After all, no-one leaked BotW 2 and that was coincidentally the only thing not in the full Direct video shared in advance. And that is something far more exciting than Banjo for the Switch games (being brutal here)

It wouldn't surprise me if more leakers than that VR Plant leaker got their hands on the video and this new leaker just tacked on new "leaks" to make his spicy.

But if an AT did get promoted, Sakurai would have shattered the final rule that holds everyone currently in Smash or originally in Smash down.

For that, it wouldn't matter who got promoted. Just as long as that horrible rule is gone for good.

Also, it's awesome that Isaac is now really high up on top of the pile. Who actually is there against us now? I think it is just Waluigi, Geno and Bandana Dee. And Geno could be in the Fighter Pass.

Honestly, I think really only Isaac and Waluigi have a chance of being in the Fighter Pass, simply because I think there wouldn't be two Square characters as part of the DLC. Additionally, I think Isaac has an advantage over Waluigi because he fits the "Fighter Pass" criteria (that being a stage, music, Spirits, etc.) better, being part of a previously unrepresented series.

 

[StrawHatX]

Honestly, I think really only Isaac and Waluigi have a chance of being in the Fighter Pass, simply because I think there wouldn't be two Square characters as part of the DLC. Additionally, I think Isaac has an advantage over Waluigi because he fits the "Fighter Pass" criteria (that being a stage, music, Spirits, etc.) better, being part of a previously unrepresented series.

I agree that Isaac would offer more in terms of a stage, music, and spirits. But even though I would argue Isaac is more popular and requested in the Smash community Waluigi is far more recognizable and popular outside of it.

It really could go either way. But I don’t believe in the Paragon leak so I don’t think either are getting into the Pass. Maybe extra DLC afterwards. I’d prefer Isaac to get into the Pass because I think if we get extra DLC characters later on they probably won’t come with the stage and all of that extra stuff.