Sumting Sumting Maifa | Game Over

[ranmaru]

When did Triss become a strongscum read?

He hasn't. He's null-town.

 

[Handorin]

People saying individuals they find scummy is not = to putting together a 3 man scum team. I find it coming out of nowhere because you'd only really pushed DB out of that group before then. You mentioned finding it hard anyone would have a hard time having a strong town read on Sabrar which I agree with, but I have yet to see you push Sabrar or Xivii outside of the DB thing. Could you tell me your opinions on those two? Or atleast on Sabrar since you say you explained why you though sabbananas is a thing but I more saw points against Bananas in that post.

That's flawed thinking. Mafia are in a team together. You can't call multiple people scummy and not inherently link them together, unless you believe there are multiple mafia teams. You can have a scum read on person X and a town read on person Y at the same time, but given person X's interactions with Y, conclude Y is scum, or vice versa. And say there's 2 mafia left, and "I think person X and Z are "scummy"", that means I think they're on the same team. But after analysis, maybe the X and Y makes more sense.

tldr the ramble: think in scum teams and not scum individuals.

So here's where I broke down a Bananas post and then linked them to Sab. Adding bolds for emphasis.

These highlights seem odd to me. Seems like an unwarranted defense of Sabrar while exaggerating the content of the posts, and puts them in a town lean which seems like a stronger indicator than "null town". I'm finding it hard to believe anyone has that strong of a town feeling out of Sabrar's play. I'd have half a mind to say these two would be scummates together.

Then there's his read on me. He almost copies my own summary of my play style. Keeps me town lean to try and keep me around. Like, what does it even mean that I'd normally be null scum, but some posts seem townie? What's the "normal" being referenced?

The reads on Triss and 3ds seem like low hanging lynch fruit. The general consensus seems Triss is newbie townie, meaning new to the format. So there's overemphasis on total experience rather than format experience. 3DS has a unique roll, which could easily be verified and basically confirm town (My assumption is that it'd be way too powerful a scum role). I think it's unwarranted to push for a lynch here this early on 3DS, or Triss for that matter.

So with this team in mind, Ran's post of game winning reads caught my eye. Here's his bit on Xiivi. Seemed good to me.

Xiivi: #42 This post pinged me because he's giving Bessie a town read when it was null, there was nothing to read from that post that was townie. Rather, I think it was too early to judge and this implies Xiivi has TMI. His #129 doesn't sound like he believes in it or is confident in it. Now he posts his reads list #393 which isn't comparable to his play in Sorcerers. [Town!Zen Reads Post] [Scum Zen Game] Notice that his play here is disengaged, and the pay off isn't there. Now his push on Handorin is notably weak. Most importantly, Zen isn't looking at intent or trying to determine who is actually scum here. There is no conviction to this posts here, and his tone is different, especially when interacting with me. He's taking each opportunity to sling mud (I'm not sure of the term, so I say that) on my slot when I ask him a question of his play. If he had a genuine concern with my play, he'd bring it up previously, and have it reflected in his lynch list. #397 #402 Finally, Zen never had an explanation for why Pythag became better to him to be placed in the do not lynch list.

Later on, Ran asks Sab (someone I have on my scum team) what his stance on Xiivi was (someone that got put on my radar after that post). Here's that interaction.

Sabrar, tell me your stance on Zen this game. If I'm so wrong, then who are the scum, and not just one.

I thought I just did. Based on my limited experience with scum!Zen, this is not it. And no, I won't give you two scum off the top of my head.

This seemed like an easy deflection with a rebuff to avoid drawing more lines between himself and Xiivi. So by that train of thought, I'd lump in Xiivi with the other two.

 

[ranmaru]

Just backreading through game and in the Xivii Ran battle I see Ran as scum a lot more, his read list felt a bit forced to me, not having any nulls on day one and calling others out on it is insane to me.

Can you explain how my reads list is forced to you with examples? Also, it's ridiculous to me that we are allowing players to have null reads on Day One.

 

[ranmaru]

Z25 Pythag Why aren't you two voting? I want to see a vote from y'all.

 

[BoomFrog]

He hasn't. He's null-town.

Then why is he on your short list to lynch?

 

[ranmaru]

Because he's the lowest in the list, and after him are my three scum reads, making it a bottom four. Yet a fourth scum read is developing that will replace his spot.

 

[Z25]

Z Town (with direct stances)

That first quote is from The middle of the game when **** got real and there was plenty to go off of.

Second post I believe is day 2 and I know the third post isa later phase.

4th is day one I have to check.

5 and 6 were about UP and Boom on like day 3.

2nd to last one is day 2

And the last one I also need too check again.

Now why did you quote nothing but irrelevant content here? I said point out how my day one meta was different there from here not the later phases when I could really get into the game and had better thoughts.

So where’s the frosting to your argument?

 

[ranmaru]

The quotes from this game are the only quotes I could find with you mentioning a stance you believe is scum compared to that game where you showed to have more confidence.

 

[Z25]

Re read Ran and Zen. Both make fair pints? But there’s too much for me to starting inserting quotes.

Bottom line though I’m thinking T V T still.

Ran definitely has played completely different this game, part of this change was stated to be a choice they would make but the lack of Proactive voting is odd. Especially when they cared about that a lot last game and kept changing votes and perspectives.

Zen here has the same sort of harsh tone that he usually does so I don’t see a difference here. Ran’s backseat points are also interesting but with Ran also going against his meta Zen could be changing his meta just for the game. But the still has the same type of feel as both recent games I played with him where I was scum he had a definitive mindset on me as scum and would not back down no matter what. Which he was right there because he can read slots well.

Both these slots usually go all in on a vote, Ran just switches more but still adds firepower to his vote changes with good reasoning if he does. Their convictions here are pretty similar to post games and mindsets.

So I’m 80 percent positive this is T V T having seen their town games recently. There is definitely doubt you could have with either slot but at the end of the day that can be said for any slot. That’s my personal take on both slots right now

Counter point:

Ran was basically god last game, everyone listened to him no questions asked for the most part. Why wouldn’t scum Ran do the same if no one was scum reading him?

Gives scum Ran the potential to make any push they want and not get lynched as we discussed last game actually.

That’s a fair choice but again even logic agreed my assessment of him Was accurate to his meta. And you could argue he’s saying that as my mate but I can assure you that’s not the case. It be a bad move to have a teammate make such an obvious connection to me.

Ran and Zen both proved themselves so far to be playing well in the game and without any big shift in their actions from previous games. They both have good points and their debate even furthers my reads from their early game content and shows me they are town. I know both slots very well which is why I could make such a strong read. It’s what I broke down even more when breaking down their debate.

And considering I’ve been actively updating my reads it’s really doesn’t make sense to use my list as your main point of reasoning

Z this game (stances)

The above are additional stances and posts that have very similar ideas to what you said was good content by me last game

 

[ranmaru]

Those aren't stances that you feel are scum.

 

[Z25]

Those aren't stances that you feel are scum.

Why should every stance be scum?

I told you I’m look at Hand first, but would also look at Boom, And then laser. Bottom line is with so many people I won’t be able to strictly narrow down my pool until we get a flip

 

[Z25]

Z25 Pythag Why aren't you two voting? I want to see a vote from y'all.

I see you missed more as I am voting. My vote is on handorian

 

[ranmaru]

I missed that. Can you explain your Laser read?

 

[osieorb18]

Votecount 1.7​

One of the pieces we played in the trio was called "Unforgettable" and was from .hack//Liminality.

Trisscar (1) - Malakandra
BoomFrog (1) - Trisscar
Deadbananas (1) - Handorin
Handorin (2) - BoomFrog, Z25
LaserGuy (1) - Spak
3DSNinja (2) - Sabrar, Deadbananas
Ranmaru (3) - LaserGuy, Xivii, Jackrito
Xivii (1) - Ranmaru

Not voting: Bessie, LogicoftheVI, Pythag, 3DSNinja

With 16 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch by majority.

Day 1 Lynch Deadline will be Friday, May 22nd, at 5 PM PST.

Spoiler: Day 1 Activity Check 2

11 posts total required.
Spak needs 3 due to V/LA.

#266-#644

Ranmaru - 11+
3DSNinja - 11+
Pythag - 11+
Z25 - 11+
Spak - 3+
Trisscar - 11+
Bessie - 8
Xivii - 11+
LaserGuy - 11+
Sabrar - 11+
LogicoftheVI - 11+
Jackrito - 11+
Handorin - 11+
BoomFrog - 11+
DeadBananas - 11+
Malakandra - 11+

Bessie has been prodded.

 

[Malakandra]

That's flawed thinking. Mafia are in a team together. You can't call multiple people scummy and not inherently link them together, unless you believe there are multiple mafia teams. You can have a scum read on person X and a town read on person Y at the same time, but given person X's interactions with Y, conclude Y is scum, or vice versa. And say there's 2 mafia left, and "I think person X and Z are "scummy"", that means I think they're on the same team. But after analysis, maybe the X and Y makes more sense.

tldr the ramble: think in scum teams and not scum individuals.

True, generally early on I just focus on finding a single scum based off interactions and the like then go back and carrying onward try to find the scummates but maybe I am going about it wrong as I consider myself better at Scum than innocent.

I like your explanation in the rest of the post even if I would like to see more individual focus on Sab and Xivii, I know understand where you got to the three scummates theory.

 

[Trisscar]

Trisscar What is your opinion of the Ran vs Xivii issue? Who are your bottom 4 picks for scum?

Still think they need to get a chatroom. Especially since it continued for like two pages after, ye gods.


Also on the subject of the gotcha moment with Boomfrog, just gonna point out:

"Boom could just be an aggressive town. I just tend to react with sarcasm and mild teasing when someone attempts to be aggressive for no obvious reason, since while it's a valid strategy I still consider it to be mildly rude."

 

[Malakandra]

Hey Triss! This VC is all over the place with half to amount of people in this game being voted with still 4 people not voting. Whats your take on this?

 

[Trisscar]

That I want the first night to come early so people have something of substance to work with.

 

[Malakandra]

Also I noticed you didn't answer booms question about who are your bottom 4 scum, so just in case you missed that and he won't have to get frustrated at you. I would also like to see your answer.

 

[Malakandra]

That I want the first night to come early so people have something of substance to work with.

Fair enough, I think its indicative of scum taking a more relaxed attitude in regards to content they put out which is causing this. Guessing closer to EoD more of votes that are at the higher end of the list are going to be dropped and the lower down ones on the list are going to gain more traction as there is arguably more substance there. What with the 3DS claim situation and the Ran v Xivii situation.

 

[3DSNinja]

I honestly view the first day as the least useful one. You get some suspicions from behavior, yes, but who the victims are and looking back over a victim's posts makes catching a mafia a far easier task then trying to catch a mafia simply on behavior as in the end, behavior can only be so helpful. You need to find a killer's signature in order to catch them, after all.

 

[Malakandra]

I honestly view the first day as the least useful one. You get some suspicions from behavior, yes, but who the victims are and looking back over a victim's posts makes catching a mafia a far easier task then trying to catch a mafia simply on behavior as in the end, behavior can only be so helpful. You need to find a killer's signature in order to catch them, after all.

I mean without day one there would be no content to look back over but I get your point. Im seeing how these votecounts will be able to help a lot more than in more VC style games where its a lot harder to find time to go back and look over voting trends.

 

[ranmaru]

Malak, what is your take on Me VS Xivii?

 

[Malakandra]

Let me go re read it to make sure Im getting everything right

 

[3DSNinja]

Yes, keeping count over votes is key, but we also need to pull some analysis.

Alright, so, reads.... I don't have many.

I think that Ran is acting slightly suspicious, but also I don't think he's scum. I mean, he was suspcious in Oasis as well... and he was town there. I think that mafia usually try to blend in and hop on to bandwagons, which is why I feel like Xivii is still closer to the scum scale, but I'm not sure if he is scum because while he could be trying to go risky as scum, I genuinely don't get why you would do that when that means you're immediately gonna become a lot more suspicious the next day. Scum are generally the people who seemingly go with the crowd, which is also why I'm certain Sabrar is town; he's gueinenly thinking and not trying to go along with the crowd, and what he's saying makes a lot of sense, even if I know I'm town. You guys don't, and you shouldn't assume a power role is town because it's a power role.
also ranmaru I'm pretty sure both of you are innocent, but you're definintely the one I'm leaning on the townie side between you and Xivii.

 

[bessie]

Ok I received the prod. I will try to keep my post count up.

The game was on Page 10 when I last posted. I will read through starting where I left off and post thoughts as I have them. For my first read I’m going to skip the Zen-Ran content and come back to that after I have a chance to look at it all.

This is kinda my shadow's read list

"there are just too many people I would put at Nulls, there is no need for a read list
I think the PoE below is likely to have a minimum of one wolf
Malak/Lasor/Hand

P.S: if one more person FoS's Trisscar I will be fuming, the dude is literally so genuine, and pure. Seriously go do other things with these 120 hour days"

Can your shadow expand on this read of Trisscar?

Thanks, Sherlock. I definitely didn't think of that or already say that.

Are you referring to post #374? Because I thought about that, and in that post I got the idea that you had already decided 3DSNinja is town because of his claim and you are not seriously considering any other possibilities.

 

[Trisscar]

"bottom 4" isn't really how I think about this kinda thing. And I'm inclined to keep certain reads to myself because of what the options are for what they could be doing.

 

[3DSNinja]

Mainly because Xivii seems ...desperate to get you out, which could be a townie trying to prove his innocence, yes, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Then again, that's the kinda thing I did last game... but Xivii isn't a newbie, which makes it far more suspicious then me doing because... well, he should know better, ya know?

 

[Z25]

I missed that. Can you explain your Laser read?

I like some of his posts but others feel like they just want to draw attention like 277. His focus on the act of triss editing Posts was weird. When the OP states minor edits are fine and we know laser knew the OP well( he remembered the low power stuff) it’s a weird thing for a townie to use and make content about.

Especially when I’m pretty sure last game Ninja made a few mistakes of editing but laser didn’t address it there. Could be wrong but I believe that was the case.

He’s talked more on other slots like triss then me but his vote early on was still on me at the time. Which was odd. Feels like that vote overall didn’t matter as much to them.

370 has him switch to you for what is pretty poor reasoning to start. He thinks you somehow have access to knowledge of the entire setup. Something that is a very crazy idea and reason to vote someone with very little to back that up. It’s just a bad post imo because the vote reasoning is very invalid. It’s one thing to vote someone but something to back up as actual evidence would be important.

496 also makes no sense at this point. He was voting you without question but the. Says the only person he would vote is me. Sure it’s a response to your post, but he could have said me or you would be his vote. Yet he didn’t. That means they don’t really care about voting you if they have other reads that are supposedly stronger.

The inconsistency doesn’t make sense to me and has me skeptical on their slot and reasonings.

 

[3DSNinja]

Z25, that's true. He never said word about my posts being edited...
BUT... last game was SCUM Laser. Which means that his behavior last game would be suspcious if he acted more like that now.

But him saying he'd only vote for Z25 and then immediately ya know contradicting that entire statement which is immediately setting off a million red flags is a little odd.

 

[Malakandra]

Malak, what is your take on Me VS Xivii?

Alright so after taking way to much time out of me life to read all this and all the crap you guys linked heres my take. First off you should stick to your word and leave off on Xivii day 1 because even being correct about a scum isn't worth all this IMO when you can have more evidence on d2 and not have to deal with the frustration Xivii feels of being pushed every Day 1 which makes the argument a lot more emotion based between the two of you making it harder for other readers of the thread to follow along. I don't see any hard proof for either one of you being scum in all that argument since a whole bunch of it was meta that may make perfect sense to you two but for us who weren't there and don't know the context of everything its a lot harder to get at what you want to get at. I don't see scum you going this hard on Xivii day 1 since you would know from prior experience there would be a blow up. As for Xivii I need to see more from him in order to make a real judgement. I'd be willing to vote for Xivii over you but thats mostly for reasons outside of the whole situation between you two and Xivii is outside of the people I'd like to lynch today.

 

[Malakandra]

Mainly because Xivii seems ...desperate to get you out, which could be a townie trying to prove his innocence, yes, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Then again, that's the kinda thing I did last game... but Xivii isn't a newbie, which makes it far more suspicious then me doing because... well, he should know better, ya know?

Why do you think Xivii looks desperate to get out? He seemed more frustrated to me.

 

[3DSNinja]

Eh, it just felt desperate to me, partially because his posts and behavior kinda remind of how I was last game, and I was moreso desperate then frustrated...
But I'm not the greatest at reading people, so eh, I could be very wrong.

 

[Malakandra]

Ninja, your shadow mentioned I was one of their three in the PoE, could you explain why? I would also appreciate reasoning for the other two. I think it was laser and Handorin IIRC

 

[3DSNinja]

I'll ask them right now.

 

[Jackrito]

Because he's the lowest in the list, and after him are my three scum reads, making it a bottom four. Yet a fourth scum read is developing that will replace his spot.

I don't remember you being this open to compromise on your reads in Oasis, it meant playing around you was a real pain because you jumped from person to person with absolute certaintly and POE not really mattering. It was what you believed in only

 

[Jackrito]

I think Logic is town based off his early posts they are fakable though, but finding it really strange he is not voting, he is normally pretty free with his voting and not caring about it. This is reminding me a bit of token in that aspect where I don't remember him having strong reads and barely voting. He could be busy but it still bothers me.

 

[ranmaru]

I also want people to start thinking about where they want to centralize. Everyone should have a bottom four they can compromise within. I will think of one tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

 

[Jackrito]

Yes, keeping count over votes is key, but we also need to pull some analysis.

Alright, so, reads.... I don't have many.

I think that Ran is acting slightly suspicious, but also I don't think he's scum. I mean, he was suspcious in Oasis as well... and he was town there. I think that mafia usually try to blend in and hop on to bandwagons, which is why I feel like Xivii is still closer to the scum scale, but I'm not sure if he is scum because while he could be trying to go risky as scum, I genuinely don't get why you would do that when that means you're immediately gonna become a lot more suspicious the next day. Scum are generally the people who seemingly go with the crowd, which is also why I'm certain Sabrar is town; he's gueinenly thinking and not trying to go along with the crowd, and what he's saying makes a lot of sense, even if I know I'm town. You guys don't, and you shouldn't assume a power role is town because it's a power role.
also ranmaru I'm pretty sure both of you are innocent, but you're definintely the one I'm leaning on the townie side between you and Xivii.

Was Ran suspect in Oasis, as scum I saw him as someone that I would need to nk because could never lynch him, so find your read here weird on that game. I don't feel that Xivii is jumping on a bandwagon here he is more leading it if anything, the way you backtracked on the shade of him is suspect as well. You never said anywhere in this why Ran is more town either just weak shade on why xivii could be scum.

I'm going to assume this is your shadow because they is a lot of assumptions on how certain sides should play.

 

[ranmaru]

Xivii is literally omgusing.