Suggestion regarding items, an item ban list.

[KazenoZ]

It's obvious to all that if items will come to see light in tournament play some items will have to be banned.
I was kinda bored in class today and started thinking up which items could be tourney worthy, and not too broken and made a list when I got back home;

Just so people won't back out of the thread thinking I'm just another random noob suggesting untested stuff:
I HAVE PLAYED BRAWL, AND EXPERIENCED HOW EACH ONES OF THE ITEMS BELOW PLAY, WORK AND CAN BE USED, THE BELOW LIST IS MADE FROM SELF EXPERIENCE AND CAN CHANGE WHEN GLITCHES/NEW USES FOR ITEMS ARE FOUND.

Notes:
1. From what I've heard, Capsules and Party Balls(While they can't be turned off) won't explode if the exploding crate is turned off in the item selection screen.
I haven't tried seeing if it was true yet, every time I played was either with all items off or all items on. If they still explode, all of the below list should be ignored, if they don't, then good I guess.
2. This list is very strict is it needs to get rid of every item that can effect the battle greatly by luck. All in all, there are 8/49 items allowed, and 2 that undetermined as of now.
I'm aware it won't make a big change to the game if only this many items are allowed, but that's the point.

List arranged by the order of items on the item selection screen:

Smash Ball - Fail - Not all Final Smashes are balanced, take for example Sonic Vs. DK,
Sonic is near positive to land a kill, while DK just builds up damage. Changes play style,
instead of fighting, players are forced to chase the ball or they'll probably lose a stock.

Assist Trophy - Fail - Some Assist Trophies can earn undeserved KOs(Shadow, Waluigi,
Knuckle Joe, Etc.) and some are very distractive(Nintendog, Mr. Resseti, Devil, etc.)

Pokeball - Fail - Some Pokemon can get, or prepare for, undeserved KOs(Staryu, Groudon,
Meowth, Manaphy etc.)

Crates - Pass - Exploding Crates have been seperated from the normal crates, therefore,
normal crates don't oppose danger anymore, to land the hit by the crate itself takes a
while, in which the user can be hit. Risk taken to use=Pass.

Exploding Crates - Undetermined - This is likely to fail, however, it seems that getting
the crate to explode takes alot of hits, even a fully charged Smash would not always
blow it up, a randomly appearing crate will most likely not cause a SD, but this is
undecided as of now. Risk taken for normal use=Pass

SandBag - Pass - Does not interfere with the battle, and doesn't have effect on either side,
However can block/diminish some attacks if placed correctly. Pass until further testing.

Barrels - Undetermind - If Barrels can still explode, this will be disqualified for obvious
reasons, if they don't, this passes for same reason as Crates.

Maxim Tomato - Fail - Gives undeserved advantage to one side.

Heart Container - Fail - Gives undeserved advantage to one side.

Dragoon - Fail - Changes play style, players are forced to stop fighting to stop other
player from obtaining the pieces, and use stale moves to try and knock out a piece a
player already has.

Super Mushroom - Fail - Gives undeserved advantage to one side.

Poison Mushroom - Fail - Gives undeserved advantage to one side.

Warp Star - Fail - Counters shields. Leaves user open for attacks for a few seconds after
usage.

Starman - Fail - Gives undeserved advantage to one side.

Metal Box - Fail - Gives undeserved advantage to one side.

Bunny Hood - Pass - While gives movement bonus for the one obtaining it, it makes
controlling your character much harder. Has equal pros and cons therefore=legal.

Spicy Curry - Fail - Can build up damage on a character while the user can keep fighting
regularly and use the flinching for killing opportunities. User can carry another item
while using this.

Clock - Fail - Although it has the same chance of hurting the user and the foe, it will
most likely get the one affected by it killed, thus basing a stock on a luck.

Thunder - Fail - Although it has the same chance of hurting the user and the foe, it will
most likely get the one affected by it killed, thus basing a stock on a luck.

Beam Sword - Fail - A huge range increasion, and also knockback and damage bonuses
It does have more EL(Executation Lag) for usage, but the little time that's added to it
doesn't equal the big advantage that's given to the user.

Home-Run Bat - Pass - Massive knockback, but due to the hugely increased executation
lag it leaves the user widely open for attacks. Risk taken to use item=Pass

Fan - Pass - A semi useless item anyway, does barely any damage, and can't kill until
mid 100s. Turn-around-slap combo is alot easier to escape due to the new physics engine.
Has no risk for the user yet can cause an increased amount of damage to enemy, might
become banned if a better way of usage is found.
EDIT: Fan - Fail - Above reasons could be valid if it wasn't for the shield breaking effect of the fan, thanks goes to Rebel581 for bringing it up.

Lip's Stick - Fail - Almost the same executation lag for all characters, but every single
hit from this causes the enemy to lose extra damage due to suckage.

Star Rod - Fail - Can be used for edgeguarding.

Hammer - Fail - Gives undeserved advantage to one side, either a kill or atleast 30%+
damage.

Golden Hammer - Fail - Gives undeserved advantage to one side, either a kill or atleast 30%+damage. Can make user float when off the stage.

SuperScope - Fail - Can be used for edgeguarding.

Ray Gun - Fail - Can be used for edgeguarding.

FireFlower - Fail - Can be used for edgeguarding. User can now walk while using it and
push opponent off the stage into an edgeguard.

Cracker Launcher - Pass - Takes time to angle, hard to combo with, user moves very
slowly, loses second jump ability, and item is easy to knock out of the users hands.
User is wide open for attacks from behind as it takes more time to turn around while
holding this item.

Bob-omb - Fail - Random appearance can cause SDs.

Motion-Sensor Bomb - Fail - Can be used for edgeguarding.

Gooey Bomb - Fail - Random appearance can cause SDs.

Smart Bomb - Fail - Not enough knockback to become too useful to one side, but can be
used for edgeguarding.

Deku Nut - Fail - Can stun opponent, easy set up for finishing moves.

Freezie - Fail - Stuns enemy, can set up for damage building combos.

Smoke Bomb - Pass - Low knockback, only use is for mindgames.

Pitfall - Fail - Stuns enemy making an easy set up for finishing moves.

Zelda's Sun monster thingie - Fail - If timed correctly can be deadly for enemy.
MIGHT be good for edgeguarding.

Mr. Saturn - Pass - Low knockback and damage, not much assistance to either side.

Green Shell - Fail - High knockback and easy to use. If jumped upon it launches user
into another jump which can leave them open for attacks.

Banana - Fail - As if normal tripping isn't enough...
Stuns enemy, can setup for a quick combo.

Bumper - Fail - Way increased knockback that can launch users off the stage in low %s.
Can be used to edgeguards.

Spring - Fail - High knockback, can launch whoever it hits off the stage in low %s.
Can be used for infinites if timed correctly.

Urchin - Pass - Low knockback and damage, just a mean of stage limitation, and a small
one at that.

Soccerball - Fail - Can be used for cheap KOs, edgeguards and lanuchers, with no extra
risk of using.

Team Healer - Doesn't appear in singles matches therefore irrelevant.

Franklin Badge - Fail - Cancels projectiles, therefore gives undeserved advantage against
some characters.

Screw Ball - Fail - Can setup for an easy aerial combo if used correctly.




I myself enjoy the game more while playing with items turned off, and would not like this list implented into the competetive play scene, however, alot of people have shown interest in seeing if it would work out with Brawl, so I just made a list of POSSIBLE items that could see light for competetive play.
Take it as you will.

 

[SiegKnight]

Bad troll is bad. Are you insane? Hammers can be beaten by reclinging repeatedly onto ledges, with marths counter, etc. Play with them extensively and work out counters to each of them.

Almost all items need to be unbanned or I'd prefer it 1 v 1 no items, and I'm the most pro item person competetively there is.

Warp Star - Fail - Counters shields. Leaves user open for attacks for a few seconds after
usage.

What. Then don't pick it up?! Ugh, duh?! If it counters shields, you want to use it on someone who doesn't know to down dodge.

Dragoon... Downdodge it.
FS... Downdodge or learn ledge reclinging and evasion strategies.

Yes, I've played brawl with items extensively.

I doubt anyone who plays competetively and doesn't like items already will want items on as they respawn at random points and undermine 1 v 1 vs play. People who like items know all this stuff about them that you don't and want them almost all on except for starmen and the healers.

Franklin Badge - Fail - Cancels projectiles, therefore gives undeserved advantage against
some characters.

Yeah because we don't want people doing anything silly like adapting to different strategies. Trap = downdodge it.

I don't think silly compromises like this work man. Item users want them all on for the added strategy, and non item users want to keep brawl fair, deserving and without random respawn points.

Neither side is incorrect within the totally different games that they play apart from each other, but neither wants their games tampered with. Effort is appreciated though.

 

[Foxy]

Good list. Sensible. Just because something CAN be dodged doesn't mean it doesn't give any advantage.

And honestly, stop throwing the word 'troll' around. OP knows what he's doing.

 

[SiegKnight]

Fact is... It can be dodged. Learn how to land it without it being dodged, and learn how to dodge it without it not being not dodged.

No one who wants a fair vs fight wants any of them things on anyway?! Wheres the counter against random respawn points? He doesn't know jack about what he's doing. Hammers are useless man. I recling onto ledges when someone picks them up. Sometimes, they lose the top and I kill them!

Are you both nuts?

 

[Foxy]

Fact is... It can be dodged. Learn how to land it without it being dodged, and learn how to dodge it without it not being not dodged.

No one who wants a fair vs fight wants any of them things on anyway?! Wheres the counter against random respawn points? He doesn't know jack about what he's doing. Hammers are useless man. I recling onto ledges when someone picks them up. Sometimes, they lose the top and I kill them!

Are you both nuts?

1. We said that about Final Smashes too... then we found Falco's. Enjoy 3 free stocks.
2. Reclinging? Maybe if you call it ledge stalling.
3. You were forced to run to an edge and sit on it for 20 seconds. Nice one!

 

[SiegKnight]

yeah I was, but there are ways of setting the hammer up to. a battle between offense strategies and counters are what fighting games are about. Falco's fs works the same way. They have to keep guessing vs my evasion, I have to keep guessing vs their offense, its fun.

Thats the whole advantage to an items match, sans the healers.

If you're the type to not like landmasters filling the screen, stick to 1 v 1 itemless, where its fair, square, no random respawn points and you have to fight it out directly. If you can't be ***** to sit through hundreds of rapings till you get the hang of counters, no one who likes items wants to play you with them seriously.

Play without them instead, I'd rather that then that useless list. There ARE ways to beat the reclinging technique, its not stalling. But you can't with the hammer. It can't jump in midair.

 

[Rebel581]

Good list. @ SiegKnight: Bad troll is bad.

Final Smashes seemed fun >_> I guess I just have to accept that they won't ever be tourney viable. That wasn't really hard. I didn't expect them to be tourney viable to begin with.

I still don't think this is going to end up sticking though. And the fan's the most broken item in the game. It ***** shields. You cannot shield when facing the fan or you pretty much get your shield broken. At least that's how it was in Melee. I would assume it's the same in Brawl.

 

[SiegKnight]

You mean I'm a troll? x.o Where what when why how? His list sucks because of many reasons, and one of them is something you believe too; he thinks fans are viable and hammers aren't. Its the other way round according to your logic + facts I know about brawl, though no, it doesn't work the same way as it did in melee.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Just adding my two cents in here... but 37 banned items is a failure in-and-of itself. There are people actively experimenting to find a workable item list with as few bans as possible... and then people post lists like this one. It is, to be frank, frustrating.

After reading that list, I can tell, with 87-92% certainty, that KazenoZ probably couldn't care less whether items make competitive level play or not and certainly hasn't truly experimented with any of those items.

(Sidenote: 'It gives an advantage' is NOT a reason to ban something. That's the point. Items are SUPPOSED to give their users an advantage; that's also why people pick specific characters: because that character gives an advantage. 'Item A has no counter', however, IS a valid reason to ban. People are testing for those counters as we speak, one of whom is SeigKnight... so give it time, and if you really want to make an item listing that works, do some serious experimentation.)

Come back when you are able to figure out which items have NO COUNTERS, which would make said item broken and illegal for competitive play. Until then, please don't make the problem worse.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Fail item list is fail. Stop trying to tell these lame opinions to deaf ears.

 

[KazenoZ]

Bad troll is bad. Are you insane?

That was totally unneeded

Almost all items need to be unbanned or I'd prefer it 1 v 1 no items, and I'm the most pro item person competetively there is.

Just for such an ignorant statement you should not deserve to be even answered, but you have brought up some points I must adress to.

What. Then don't pick it up?! Ugh, duh?! If it counters shields, you want to use it on someone who doesn't know to down dodge.

Dragoon... Downdodge it.
FS... Downdodge or learn ledge reclinging and evasion strategies.

Yes, I've played brawl with items extensively.

That is exactly the point, we all know that they are easy to dodge, that's not what the list is aimed for. To make a competetive game with items fair there needs to be little as possible effect by the items, the circumstances don't always let you be able to dodge such items in time, therefore the advantage is still going towards the one who gets the item.
A great example to prove that would be 2 items you brought up yourself, the hammer and a warp star. Go through the situation in your head, you have 100% damage, opponent has 150% both on last stock, a hammer appears, you grab it, opponent keeps dodging, a few seconds later a warp star appears, opponent grabs it, a hammer slows down your movement and you can't defend or dodge anything while having it equipped. Guess what, you lose the match.

I doubt anyone who plays competetively and doesn't like items already will want items on as they respawn at random points and undermine 1 v 1 vs play. People who like items know all this stuff about them that you don't and want them almost all on except for starmen and the healers.

Have you even looked at the list?
That's exactly the point, it doesn't matter where the items appear as the difference they'll make won't matter much at all, it doesn't matter the slightest where a smokeball appears as it doesn't effect the battle.

I don't think silly compromises like this work man. Item users want them all on for the added strategy, and non item users want to keep brawl fair, deserving and without random respawn points.


Neither side is incorrect within the totally different games that they play apart from each other, but neither wants their games tampered with. Effort is appreciated though.

I agree totally, nothing you said in these senctences contradicts me in anyway, so I don't see what the problem actually is.

I still don't think this is going to end up sticking though. And the fan's the most broken item in the game. It ***** shields. You cannot shield when facing the fan or you pretty much get your shield broken. At least that's how it was in Melee. I would assume it's the same in Brawl.

You're absolutely right, I'm so stupid to have forgotten about this... I try not to even pick up any fans that show up because they're so useless to me(The people I play Brawl with currently are all casual players who rarely defend at all(The owner of the game is one of them =\)), I'll edit it right away, thanks for bringing it up.

EDIT:

(Sidenote: 'It gives an advantage' is NOT a reason to ban something. That's the point. Items are SUPPOSED to give their users an advantage; that's also why people pick specific characters: because that character gives an advantage. 'Item A has no counter', however, IS a valid reason to ban. People are testing for those counters as we speak, one of whom is SeigKnight... so give it time, and if you really want to make an item listing that works, do some serious experimentation.)

Look, I'll say this again, that is the exact point, if the items give an advantage to a user as such brough up above(Look to the hammer vs. warp star), or such that could easily change the face of battle they can't stay up in a competetive match with money on the line.
One of the items I was unsure wether to pass or leave, was the Ray Gun, it's seemingly not too good of an item, easy to counter and easy to avoid, but if you get hit by it once you may very well be considered dead if the user knows what they're doing, especially now that you can walk while shooting, it's easier than ever to ray combo you off the stage with constant timing of shooting.
For another example I'll bring up the mushrooms that were reasoned that, you can easily avoid the other character if he got a Super mushroom or a poison mushroom, but if a poison mushroom appears right above you when you're at 90% and the opponent charges at you and pulls an Usmash, more likely than not, you'd be dead. Another reason mushrooms are even worst now are that they have a startup animation, it's happened to me too often that just when I was about to land a finishing blow on an opponent a mushroom(Doesn't matter which) appeared right on top of me and made my attacks stop in favor of the mushroom startup animation.
You should really consider such circumstances thoroughly.

And I'll just point out again, this list is aimed for the current competetive scene, not an item based one that MIGHT form, therefore it's alot more limited than what you and siegeknight seem to be thinking, I'm sorry if I got you guys confused in such a way.

 

[Rebel581]

You mean I'm a troll? x.o Where what when why how? His list sucks because of many reasons, and one of them is something you believe too; he thinks fans are viable and hammers aren't. Its the other way round according to your logic + facts I know about brawl, though no, it doesn't work the same way as it did in melee.

Your reason for saying it sucks is bad. The last two posters had good reasons, that I agree with. I think that both the hammer and fan should be banned. I honestly think the fan is one of the best items in the game.

And items in themselves will probably be banned. So this issue shouldn't be pressed too hard. If it gives an unfair advantage by luck, it should be banned. Almost all items give this, and so if a majority are banned, you ban the lot of them.

 

[Rebel581]

Oh, and on a side-note, what strategy? That's the equivalent of people telling me items in Mario Kart DS required strategy. They are also the same people who complained about snaking and ruined that game online for me. They require minimal strategy at best. It has always been that way. Items do not really add strategy at all. If you can't find strategy in this game without items, you have much more to the game than you have explored.

 

[Bailey]

Doesn't really matter because they are going to be off.

 

[KazenoZ]

Doesn't really matter because they are going to be off.

And items in themselves will probably be banned. So this issue shouldn't be pressed too hard. If it gives an unfair advantage by luck, it should be banned. Almost all items give this, and so if a majority are banned, you ban the lot of them.

You guys are right, I don't see the slightest of chance of items entering the current tourney scene, but I never made this thread as an attempt to make it so, I just wanted to raise up the point that it is possible, nothing more.

 

[SFJake]

Some people have brought interesting points, but completely wrong points as well. Competition does not automatically means dumbing down randomness, luck or advantages given by taking items, thats ridiculous.

The POINT of having items on is to have something else to rely on. When items appear, the very idea to go take an item is a course of mind game and a risk - your opponent can use your will for this item to beat you up. A vague example.

Once you claim an item, your earned it and could very well have an advantage. This is OBVIOUS, this is WANTED, as long as the advantage can be countered or dealt with. This is why Starman, Heart and Tomato are automatic ban, since the advantage given is way too high.

Trying to sort items the way the TC did is dumbing down the idea to a point its not even worth considering. The 1v1 fights with no items is what you are looking for. The idea with items is not less competitive, its just much different.

 

[Blitzmidfielder]

Why do people say Falco's FS is so good? I mean, you can stand on top of it without taking damage. If they try lifting you off the stage, try iunno, walking off. Tried to land on you? Don't stand there like a deer in the headlights.

It's not rocket science.

 

[SiegKnight]

Oh, and on a side-note, what strategy? That's the equivalent of people telling me items in Mario Kart DS required strategy. They are also the same people who complained about snaking and ruined that game online for me. They require minimal strategy at best. It has always been that way. Items do not really add strategy at all. If you can't find strategy in this game without items, you have much more to the game than you have explored.

They require tons of strategy in brawl, theres even a few techniques like glide tossing which requiring items and are thus limited to characters who get items from their specials. Great assumption btw, I'm great 1 v 1 without items. I know theres tons of strategy in a vs fight and I love spacing and 2D fighters in general. Theres plenty hand to hand; but in an items match theres strategy for the same reason. More moves.

Beam sabers give you increased range, so you'll try to keep your distance a tad more, and you also have the option of throwing. However, your general A move arsenol is sacrificed. Strategy isn't so black and white, as much as it means you have a new, open set of options you have to be creative with.

People act differently too depending on items, some of the fake outs you can perform by quick dropping items, etc, are really cool. If you throw an item at someone and someone dodge rolls, then they have the lag time you'd expect from a dodge roll. Way to bait someone. But they don't have to dodge roll, they could down dodge, which does give vulnerability a little at the end in its own; they could jump, etc, and then you don't even have to throw it.

Items give you, generally, more moves, and in a game of spacing like this, more moves that act in different ways lead to more strategy. Duh.

I'm not speaking for the dumb healing items and the way they respawn at random points, they're competetively degenerate. The problem is them extra options only occur to the person lucky enough to get the item, which is often related to character speed and how randomness favours them.

Thats the only reason they're properly off in tournaments.

I'm pretty sure you haven't even played brawl, am I right?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why do people say Falco's FS is so good? I mean, you can stand on top of it without taking damage. If they try lifting you off the stage, try iunno, walking off. Tried to land on you? Don't stand there like a deer in the headlights.

It's not rocket science.

Not true. This is what you do.

Kill them with FS. either by blasting them or barrel rolling them (if they try to stand on top of you or stall at the ledge, because it hits there too).

When they come back they are stuck on the pedestal for a short amount of time. You can litterally lift them out of the pedestal and push them off the top. No character (except maybe Sonic and Captain Falcon) is fast enough to run off the side of the landmaster.

Repeat this process as many times as you can while your FS lasts.

It's an easy 2-3 stocks off of the other person. There is litterally nothing they can do about it because by the time they even have control of thier character after dying it is too late.

 

[SiegKnight]

...

you're ****ing kidding me. Wow, that **** works? Thanks, now I have more work to do x.x; arrhgerg34dt4g.

I can't believe Sakurai let that through.

edit - nevermind, I already I have a good idea of dealing with it from trying with a friend, though not a surefire way if they see it coming. Probably will have to keep them guessing, but thats half the fun.

I'm more scared of Marths still.

 

[Dark Sonic]

edit - nevermind, I already I have a good idea of dealing with it from trying with a friend, though not a surefire way if they see it coming. Probably will have to keep them guessing, but thats half the fun.

If you mean hanging on the ledge and ledgestalling, they can just go to the ledge and barrel roll. If you've got something else then please tell everybody because we're pretty much stumped.

 

[SiegKnight]

If you mean hanging on the ledge and ledgestalling, they can just go to the ledge and barrel roll. If you've got something else then please tell everybody because we're pretty much stumped.

I'm stumped on a guarantied way too. x.x I'm gonna keep trying. If worst comes to worst then in my silly metagame I'm gonna have to ban that one tactic, but the line between using the tactic and doing anything else just... Blurs with time and become increasingly more grey bewteen black and white.

I really didn't expect that. The other way was to jump out the pedestal in a way they will have to chase after you, putting the guess game on par with what you'd see from any landmaster. You have to guess which way to jump, and my friends falco will position himself in a way that he's reading to go either way.

Ledgestalling can work because you can use stuff like lucs and fox's up b to instant recling to the ledge for invincibility frames, then hop off, rinse, repeat. Unlike jumping to the ledge, it doesn't give you vulnerability as much.

You still have to fool with them and make them guess when to barrel roll too. Instant reclinging in the gap between two barrel rolls gives you a few seconds of breather with the invincibility frames. Keep these 'breathers' up and keep guessing right, then you have a useless land master and only like 30% damage if anything.

But they can guess right too.

Thing about my fixes is that I know nothings guarantied. If an item user is used to my ways of beating them, they can guess right back. Then you have to keep guessing and... Yeah.

Its pretty fun. For me, anyway.

I'm kind of scared of presenting these methods to you because I'm very confident you are the sort to say that its still broken, the chances are still small and it won't be in tourneys anyway. I don't believe its the first though I agree with the latter parts. I can deal with putting in such an immense ammount of effort for rewards, its how I play fighters.

You still don't have to play with FS' at all of course.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm curious to hear about all the things Sieg is figuring out. Of course, when it comes to Landmasters, anyone with a tether recovery is safe from barrel rolls, you would think. So... another point for my man, Link.

 

[Bailey]

Almost all items need to be unbanned or I'd prefer it 1 v 1 no items, and I'm the most pro item person competetively there is.

No you aren't. You not a pro anything.

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012

Any usefull information regarding items should be taken there. Please take pro-item discussion there, so that it could see some experimentation.