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Submit your entry for the Top 8 Custom Sets of [Duck Hunt]

DunnoBro

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As part of an ongoing project to push customs into the competitive scene, we're seeking the 8 most popular/competitive sets of each character to apply to every tournament wii u to streamline the custom character selection.

Please provide a set, an explanation of it, and any other comments you'd like to include.
Note: Sets dedicated to countering certain characters are more than welcome. Especially for characters who function differently, or poorly against certain characters who otherwise perform well under default specials. Gimmicky, glitchy, or combinations just otherwise worth mentioning are welcome as well.

If there are more than 8 sets posted, we will have a poll to determine their popularity. This is more about time constraints and not forcing too many people to upload their own customs, not just competitive viability.

Please use this template for submitting sets at the top of your post:
1111 (A default set)
1231 (Custom set with default neutral special, and down special)[/spoiler]

It's an interesting enough discussion and debate topic on it's own I think, without it being about whose set is actually best. So hopefully they'll be rather popular, I'd recommend uploading your personal favorite customs/sets to get the discussion going.
 

Diamond DHD

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1113 (All default except for mega gunman)
I honestly think default DHD is one of the best, but I prefer mega gunman since it provides good stage control and keeps enemies worried about when it's going to shoot as well as the extra defense it provides.
 

DunnoBro

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1113 (All default except for mega gunman)
I honestly think default DHD is one of the best, but I prefer mega gunman since it provides good stage control and keeps enemies worried about when it's going to shoot as well as the extra defense it provides.
Lol this is what I use. Though it's only a counterpick for me. Really screws up other projectile/zoners without the ability to just run behind him and aggro at you and never really worry about the shot.

The normal gunmen has more general applications and earns you grabs and applies some decent pressure when used with other projectiles.

The most radically different one that is still somewhat viable is imo

3133

Zigzag
Default Frisbee
Super Duck Jump
Mega Gunmen

Essentially, you forfeit the ability of the projectiles to work together for them to be stronger on their own.
Mega gunmen faces one side of the stage from the middle, effectively threatening it. Zigzag can sit on the other side to threaten there too. You use the frisbee for anti-rushdown and compliment the extreme shield grabbing game with late shots. Generally shooting it where the gunmen would shoot, or activating the can on the other side if that's where they want. LOOOTS of shielding with this set-up.

Super duck jump because it's the least hassle return to stage. Default needs can kicking to return, which takes extra time and can hurt your teammate. Snag goes less far and is still pretty punishable in doubles.

I don't think it's a very good 1v1 set. The zigzag can shoots wayyy too far from you to ever be good at being an effective anti-rushdown tool, which duckhunt desperately needs because once you lose any momentum it's hell getting it back.

I do however think it has potential in doubles. The disruption the can offers is amazing, you can catch them in the combo if your teammate baits pretty much anything, and loooots of free grabs that if the can is out punishes teammates for trying to help end.

Default DH isn't as good at gimping in doubles because the "Free hitboxes" is less potent when you launch them on stage with tons of endlag that a focused opponent can punish hard. This set is more specific and team-friendly, though one of you need to be able to kill. Good grab/pummel options would be ideal. (Like a good running upsmash)

Also:

1131
1121

Just default with the two different recoveries. Really DH's defaults are mostly ideal except for the recovery. Both customs are good, I think they're both work putting in.

1132

Counter for the ditto

Super duck jump just to avoid dealing with edgeguarding damage. You can't really gimp another good duck hunt, even with your default recovery which lets you go really deep. So it's only a liability for the most part.

The odd thing here is quick draw gunmen. The reasoning here is that you pull it out when they bring out their can or clay pigeon. It quickly and easily destroys the pigeon, or redirects the can. If the can gets redirected at that range, they're forced to either come up to try and redirect it, or just keep activating it towards them. Either way you buy yourself time to pressure them better.
 
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Spirst

 
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I do 1131 against characters who aren't effective offstage gimpers as the vertical trajectory means that being a horizontal distance from the stage is a bad idea if you're against someone who can easily send you off to the left/right. I go for the Super Duck Jump because the increased speed means that you can't easily be harassed offstage. Something that can be funny albeit gimmicky is using the windbox effect on the Super Duck Jump from a ledge drop to gimp predictably vertical recoveries like Marth or Ganondorf. However, something like Rosalina's nair can wreck this recovery because the hitbox lasts so long. I want to like the one with the hitbox but the distance is so pathetic that it makes it hard to get into.

1133 is quite effective against a character like Mega Man. The hitbox of his dair is so narrow that it's almost negligent when recovering but the bair can do some serious damage if you're using the default recovery. The Mega Gunman is good for deterring his lemon usage as it can tank a fully charged fsmash and about 3-4 lemons. Like I've said countless times, it has 25% HP and against projectile heavy characters, it can be a good idea to set up a wall. A regular gunman would typically take the hit then die without getting a chance to fire back which makes it not so useful. If it's going to take a hit then get KOd, at least be able to take more than one. The timing of the gunmen firing back can also be awkward pressure. It takes about 4 seconds on average which is enough time for them to ignore it but not too much time where it becomes ineffective. It's a different kind of pressure than the constant one but it can really get in their head.

I've personally never used the zigzag can in a real game so I'm quite curious to hear the applications it would have. As for the clay pigeon, anything other than the default one seems like a bad idea to me.
 
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Diamond DHD

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Now here's a strange one I've been working on,
2232/2222
I find it to be the best class for countering Rosalina, the Rising Clay goes straight through Luma and hits Rosalina. Now of course she can use here down-b, which is why there is Quick Draw Aces and High-Explosive shot, all these customs are masters of catching people off-guard and coming out quickly, it means you don't have to rely on DHD's close quaters capabilities. High-Explosive Shot is also very good at KOing Luma compared to the rest of DHD's moveset.

Also I find this class to be the best for 4-8 player free-for-alls, normally DHD has trouble controlling masses of opponents like that, but with Rising Clay and High-Explosive Shot you can through projectiles in to the fray and it'll hit a whole bunch of them
 
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DunnoBro

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Now here's a strange one I've been working on,
2232/2222
I find it to be the best class for countering Rosalina, the Rising Clay goes straight through Luma and hits Rosalina. Now of course she can use here down-b, which is why there is Quick Draw Aces and High-Explosive shot, all these customs are masters of catching people off-guard and coming out quickly, it means you don't have to rely on DHD's close quaters capabilities. High-Explosive Shot is also very good at KOing Luma compared to the rest of DHD's moveset.

Also I find this class to be the best for 4-8 player free-for-alls, normally DHD has trouble controlling masses of opponents like that, but with Rising Clay and High-Explosive Shot you can through projectiles in to the fray and it'll hit a whole bunch of them
I don't like it for Rosaluma, but you have a point in 4v4. However, I played a fair bit of 4v4 and I think Default DHD is extremely good if played right. He's definitely an ideal character to take the lead imo because the can and pigeon are amazing control tools that slow down the enemy team and DHD can efficiently take on multiple characters. Is also really good at getting grabs which is amazing here, but he doesn't do much when a teammate gets a grab.

Back to rosaluma, the oneshot can is still awful. You shoot it once and it's gone. The rising clay? It goes through luma, sure. At distances so close they're likely to just dash attack through it or shield and punish. And quickdraw is dumb, standard gunmen is amazing here. The range and awkward timing actually lets you do stuff.

The default can still applies pressure better, especially in the air when she's landing and can be used to bait out gpull to punish with a fair. I've actually purposely been playing a lot of rosalumas (Chudat and other md/va) and the matchup really isn't that bad to me. You do have to play differently, very mid-range and willing to go in, something DHD's don't like being forced to do too much but luckily Rosaluma hates it even more.

But it does seem interesting or 4v4. I think the doubles set I mentioned earlier would probably be better, but I do like the speed and immediate usage of this DHD.

However, 2222 is already in the set. (as is 3333, for customs testing purposes)
 
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Funkermonster

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How good is UpB2 (the one with the dog biting while the duck carries him at the expense of shorter distance) if I don't have access to Super Duck Jump? I haven't really gotten to use it in the heat of battle and can't experiment with it right now.
 

DunnoBro

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How good is UpB2 (the one with the dog biting while the duck carries him at the expense of shorter distance) if I don't have access to Super Duck Jump? I haven't really gotten to use it in the heat of battle and can't experiment with it right now.
Not really worth it. The offense variable it provides is probably less than the default that lets you kick the can onto stage from further away. The bite is pretty low and small and doesn't protect you from dair or most bair/fairs aimed at you from an opponent jumping off the stage.

Super is just best.
 

Spirst

 
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Yeah, I don't see the Duck Jump Snag as being worth it at all. The distance it covers is laughable to render it iffy in itself but the fact that the hitbox isn't useful enough to deter much of anything makes it the worst of the 3 recoveries. I like Super Duck Jump a lot but I still find the primarily vertical trajectory to be a bit problematic when facing characters with good horizontal gimps like Rosalina's nair/fair. However, it's great when you're in positioning for it as the awkward pause at the start tends to throw some people off.

I'd been using the can in conjunction with the default recovery recently and it seems to be going well though it's not superb. Recovering with DH is a ***** either way. Either sacrifice horizontal distance for speed/vertical distance or sacrifice speed for horizontal distance.
 
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DunnoBro

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HOLY ****.

Quick Gunmen is actually really freaking good. Imo it might be better than mega gunmen in terms of counterpick matchups.

It's GODLIKE in the sonic matchup. This becomes so much easier. It just knocks him out of spindash, and consistently. It always wins unless you get short bro and mispace, the endlag makes it hard to follow-up but if you managed to take them somewhere with platforms it becomes more consistent.

It's probably good for shutting down other movement option chars like Bowser Jr, or Pacman. Maybe gimping too?

The endlag kind of sucks but it's not like a good player doesn't punish regular gunmen's endlag anyway.

I think against chars like sheik, fox, R.O.B. and rosalina where it's harder to pressure them with projectiles, maintain stage control, etc, and use the delayed shot of gunmen, quick gunmen is probably better if you can get used to it. I'm still not but I think I and others might've wrote it off too quickly.

It feels like a great "anti-rushdown/punish" tool.
 

Zzuxon

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Well, I can't give specific sets, but here is what we've agreed upon.
Neutral special 1 is generally best, though 2(Zig zag can) may have situational usefulness. 3(One shot can) sucks.
No side special other than 1 is worth using.
The attack Up special (2 I think) is pretty horrible. The other 2 have use.
Down special 2 is bad. 1 and 3 are both useful.
 

warriorman222

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Well, I can't give specific sets, but here is what we've agreed upon.
Neutral special 1 is generally best, though 2(Zig zag can) may have situational usefulness. 3(One shot can) sucks.
No side special other than 1 is worth using.
The attack Up special (2 I think) is pretty horrible. The other 2 have use.
Down special 2 is bad. 1 and 3 are both useful.
Could you please explain why?

No seriously, i don't know why.
 

Zzuxon

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Could you please explain why?

No seriously, i don't know why.
All right, I'll see what I can say.
One shot can gives up the brilliant zoning created by Duck Hunt's default and 2. It's just a crappy arced projectile.
The other 2 side specials are REALLY weird. One is intangible, the other explodes on hit and travels in an upward arc, getting more powerful as it moves. On the other hand, default is an excellent move.
U2 gives up recovery for a hard to hit with screw attack.
Down special 2 (Quick draw aces) takes away the Gunman's defensive use, and hampers their offensive use.
 

Diamond DHD

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For picking the top 8, we're going to need to pick which customs have best synergy, it would be easy to go 1113, 1112, 1121, 1122, 1123, 3111, 3112 etc etc but we'd take up too many spaces. If we want zig-zag can in one of these slots we'd need to put it with a gunman where it can be used to its full potential, or we'd have to sacrifice its use so we can have more combinations of recovery and gunmen, like 1122 and 1123, which are arguably the things where player preference varies the most. Also, with the recovery with a hitbox, its general reception is pretty mixed, so we need to settle on whether we want to bother with it or ditch it so we can maybe add in Zig-Zag with a few more gunmen combos. We also have to make sure all of the customs cover a wide variety of viable play-styles. Of course we have 1111, 2222 and 3333 so they're as varied as varied can be, but we still need to make sure we have all types, like 2312 for instance which is fairly rubbish, but it's different.
 
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DunnoBro

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Well, after actually really looking and testing these customs, I'm surprised to find how big of a difference customs can make, even if they seem like small changes.

Default can and clay are just the only usable ones for 1v1 to me though. Zigzag may have some untapped potential but I can't tap it, it just feels like it's way more aggressive and radical. Which is neat, but DH is very incremental and conservative, and default can is AMAZING. It's so versatile it's ridiculous. Zigzag is

So the only customs we'd might ever change really, are gunmen, and the upb.

The default recovery is okay. Snag is bad.

Super Duck Jump isn't amazing, but it's reliable and essentially ungimpable. There is a teeny bit of start-up animation, but they all have that. It seems to be a mix between sonic, and diddy's recovery.

Sonic with the invincibility frames near the end, diddy with the vulnerability near start-up. Luckily, DHD has much less vulnerability than diddy and we can safely say we have the better recovery than the "best character in the game"

Just be safe with how down you do the upb from.

There seems to be gimp potential with the windbox, but the slight delay from start and the fact he goes way above the ledge unless you start from beneath it enough makes it kind of iffy to use. Probably uses against specific characters, but generally just a gimmick.

The main issue here is super duck jump vs default.

Default generally lets you come back from deeper. Either from gimp attempts (from or against you) or trying to set the stage up with a can.

I believe quick gunmen helps alleviate all three of these issues wonderfully.

1: Quick gunmen more precisely and consistently locks out opponents on the ledge if you use it while falling by it. When using super duck jump, you want to recover low. Quick gunmen while you're falling threatens the mid-low range they'll want to occupy to threaten that. That tiny bit of delay is actually perfect.

2: When gimping, they allow you to go less deep while still putting a hitbox similar to fair just as, if not farther. (The trajectory they're sent at seems to be about the same) With the gunmen going in for you, and no possibility or trades, not to mention the delay making it so if they airdodge towards the stage you can punish, the overall better option.

3: The main reason I think DHD is so desperate to get the can out against some chars is because it's his best anti rushdown and punishment tool, and it's hard for him to regain stage control from the ledge against some chars. All his default projectiles are slow, and require some intense reads. Quick Gunmen doesn't suffer from this ailment, and is extremely good at anti rush down, and general mix-ups with the can.

There also seem to be a lot of follow-ups/grabs that are possible with quick gunmen. Since they cover so much space, they're very threatening to landings and rolls.

Overall, 1132, my originally labeled "counter" set is actually becoming my most optimum set. The default gunmen are decent, but I think there's real potential in quick.

It's an amazing spacing, anti-aerial, combo, punish, gimp, and even helps land safely.

It's also still really good against other projectile users, it's just instead of threatening their position, it can punish their endlag AND block their projectiles.
 
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Diamond DHD

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Alright, my personal favourite at the moment is still 1113, but I'll try out 1132 at one point, so we've got so far:
  1. 1113
  2. 1132
  3. 3133
  4. 1131
  5. 1133
Any others that people want? We could put in 3111, 1121 and 1112, which are fairly viable and just default with one different move, but I'll hold off on putting them there for now.
 
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DunnoBro

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Alright, my personal favourite at the moment is still 1113, but I'll try out 1132 at one point, so we've got so far:
  1. 1113
  2. 1132
  3. 3133
  4. 1131
  5. 1133
Any others that people want? We could put in 3111, 1121 and 1112, but I'll hold off on putting them there for now.
Well we already submitted our sets so this is just discussion now. Maybe I should make a separate thread for quick gunmen...

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-initial-release.381395/
 

Diamond DHD

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DunnoBro

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Alright, fair enough, you could make a general customs thread for DHD. Any news on when the customs project will be implemented in to a tournament? I assume there's nothing really official yet, since rulesets are still up in the air.
Trying to work with Xanadu currently.
 

DunnoBro

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Actually after testing and getting used to it, you might be surprised with the utility of quick gunmen. I too wrote them off after comparing them to the utility default gunmen allows.

Default gunmen is a versatile special that offers:

Projectile Protection
Ground pressure with a difficult to time shot (most opponents will not be as familiar with the timings as we are)
Stage control (for the parts of the stages your other projectiles don't cover, and they also don't contradict at all like can and clay)

But quick gunmen offers a different array of utility:

Spacing
Punishing (Rolls, endlag, startlag, landings...)
Much more potent edgeguard game. Quick gunmen is just better at this, and works with the other projectiles better to accomplish this.
Anti-aerial (when used in air)

And the DESPERATELY needed anti-rushdown and anti-edgeguard. It also provides easy answers to a lot of moves and strategies we normally have trouble punishing.

Sonics spindash
Rosalina's Gpull
Olimar's pikmin (very relevant since pikmin beat all your other projectiles. Can explodes in your face, frisbee clashes and slows down on them... Quick gunmen absorbs, shoots them, and punishes if they try to shoot more)

There also seems to be some interesting options with it not really applicable with default. Due to differing ranges, they're probably somewhat inconsistent. However, this "shorter range" the game speaks of is really not noticeable. Most shots still cover at least half of FD. That's more than enough.

I also like the ability to hit the can safely from afar to get it to my opponent without having to mash b and it just explodes when it gets there anyway.

Essentially, all duck hunts projectiles as default are pretty slow and need set-up to use properly. Quick gunmen is similar to more traditional projectiles in use, fast and weak. I feel like duck hunt needs a little speed to function better.

It's just better for maintaining the wall, and getting them back out of it once they get in.
 

DunnoBro

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Just noticed how low the knockback is on quick gunmen, but the hitstun is still like regular gunmen. If you short hop it with momentum, so you land in front of them during the shots, i believe it true combos into running upsmash even at 130% against many chars. The knockback on that move is sooo low. From the positioning of it when you land in front of them, it looks like a pretty free grab. The shots come out almost exactly when duck hunt can grab or dash grab.

If you full hop it with momentum, it also combos into uair/rar bair like this. Full hopping them puts them at the -perfect- anti-aerial and short hop/tall char punishing trajectory.

Not only that, but when fthrow stops comboing into fair, you can fthrow into this. And it can still connect, depending on your timing, their di, and the gunmen you get. Though considering the super low knockback enabling you to connect a fair after the gunmen... I think not being guaranteed might be the only thing keeping it from being busted. This combo doesn't seem to ever stop working since fthrow and quick gunmen have such low knockback.

Also, at low percents when dash attack/fair still work.. You can gunmen afterwards and possibly keep a string going.

Honestly I remember picking up duck hunt and enjoying the fact his customs didn't help him much, but after testing more and just starting to feel his recovery issues more and more, and now all the benefits quick gunmen offer... I'm pretty sure dhd actually benefits a lot from them, even if he's only changing two.

Quick gunmen gives us reliable kill set-ups, more potent damage output, and more reliable anti-rushdown. Recently it feels like bringing out gunmen at some spaces is a total hail mary. 4/5 of the regular gunmen shoot about a second after duck hunts endlag ends. I don't know the exact times of his endlag or their shoot times, but the fact most of the time there seems to be about 2 seconds of you not putting out any hitboxes, very punishable. To the point where the risk/reward feels biased towards risk in many matchups. Mainly fast ground chars with good dash attacks, or punishing options that cover large areas quickly.

ALSO: Zigzag and quick gunmen work very well together. Not only do these two set-up for grabs, and quick gunmen makes your grab game overall more potent... But the shortcomings of zigzag are greatly remedied by quick gunmen.

*In matchups against chars like sheik, greninja, doctor mario... Etc, with projectiles that cancel the can and make it reverse, the gunmen can quickly and safely fix that too.

Essentially, the main issues with zigzag, to me were:

1: Inability to pressure an enemy in a single direction
2: Radical movement which is unreliable for maintaining position in the neutral game.
3: Trajectory makes it difficult to hit most enemies on the ground

For 1, The quick gunmen provide a fast, safe way to pop the can in the direction it was already going from afar. The black gunmen is a bit of an issue, but dashing into gunmen after zigzag lets a zigzag cover all of fd in a single direction.

*If they get hit by the gunmen when the can got hit too, often the can will be in the range to knock them in towards you for a combo.

For 2 and 3, well unfortunately the zigzag can isn't as good defensively as default. It's essentially mainly helpful against aerial characters. However, quick gunmen is amazing against grounded characters. Together they cover a lot of ground and options.

Zigzag is pretty hard to use, but so was the regular can. However, I'm beginning to see great potential in zigzag too.

It has INSANE combo potential. Many times it hits, it hits the opponent into you for combos. It also seems to be better at edgeguarding. Just the can hit seems to gimp better due to the more horizontal trajectory of the knockback, and if they're close enough the inward hits can stage spike or bring them in to get combod. It covers a LOT of ground alone.

Ex. you can throw people into the zigzag can to try to knock them back into you for even more combos, or just trap them into it's self combo trajectory until it explodes. This is much more consistent than with regular can, since it rises so much higher and sends people lower even at high percents.

Duck hunt's combo and kill potential is through the freaking roof with these two. Of that I am certain. I'm pretty sure there's some other ridiculous stuff I don't know about yet with them.

Quick gunmen is pretty much a direct upgrade to me.

But zigzag, I dunno. Could be matchup/stage dependant. It makes getting kills and damage wayyy easier. And makes jumping at any time a big risk for the opponent. It's also much harder to negate due to the radical movement.

Characters like sheik, doctor mario, etc who beat regular can with their projectiles probably dislike zigzag, especially since they're very aerial oriented characters too.

But default can is an amazing defensive option. And beats a lot of other projectiles.

So, assuming equal training into both cans, in theory I think I'd do...

Default Can Vs: Link, megaman, ganon, samus...
Zigzag Can Vs: Greninja, sonic, sheik

Default vs characters who position themselves on the ground primarily and/or have issue using projectiles with the regular can.

Zigzag vs characters who can bypass the uses of the default can, either by having good aerial movement, or special movement options (sonic)

Special Mentions: Diddy, Lucario for Zigzag. Both seem to have about equal trouble with each can, but zigzag helps you get kills and these guys are extremely dangerous in rage.
 

Spirst

 
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Thought it was stupid having two threads that do the same thing so I moved the productive posts from the other thread onto this one since this was created first/had more legitimate discussion. This is now the official custom set thread for Duck Hunt and the other, locked.
 
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Dooms

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I think DHD's customs are very character specific.

As an example (since I played this matchup in 4 sets at my most recent tournament) I REALLY really ReAlLy want Mega Gunman against Megaman. I do not want the third up-b because it's really straightforward and bair will ruin me off stage because it forces my recovery to be even more predictable (it also leaves me open for dair spikes). I do not want Zig Zag can because the regular can will help create way more pressure since Megaman will be playing up close to me due to Mega Gunman being a thing. My personal set against Megaman would be 1113.

DH's customs really excite me, and I want to figure out the maximum potential of all of them. I think all of the Gunmen are very strong in thier own way (my personal favorite being Mega), Zigzag can has a lot of potential with kill power and how unique it is to control and the damage it can potentially do.

I also think our custom special project list needs to be updated if we can discuss this more. Not nearly enough xxx2, and 3113 needs to be a thing imo. I also don't see any matchups where you'd want 1131 personally.
 

DunnoBro

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Super duck jump really isn't any more predictable than sonic's upb, the only times it's an issue is if they have superb control and timing with a hitbox around the ledge (multi jumpers mostly)... And that's just as big an issue with the default upb. The only scenario I can foresee is when the default would let you get a can out to protect you and the less horizontal movement of super wouldn't allow it.

Also I don't see how mega would help against megaman much. Not default anyway. Blade and leaf still pierce, bomb only hurts you if you stay behind gunmen too long. Quick seems better since he has to be very careful with bringing out his projectiles as quick wins/trades in our favor if we use it anywhere around the time he uses his. (before or after)
 
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Dooms

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Super duck jump really isn't any more predictable than sonic's upb, the only times it's an issue is if they have superb control and timing with a hitbox around the ledge (multi jumpers mostly)... And that's just as big an issue with the default upb. The only scenario I can foresee is when the default would let you get a can out to protect you and the less horizontal movement of super wouldn't allow it.

Also I don't see how mega would help against megaman much. Not default anyway. Blade and leaf still pierce, bomb only hurts you if you stay behind gunmen too long. Quick seems better since he has to be very careful with bringing out his projectiles as quick wins/trades in our favor if we use it anywhere around the time he uses his. (before or after)
I disagree. The amount of scenarios where you get knocked off stage and are low enough to where Super Duck Jump makes you recover quicker than regular is pretty small in my opinion. The second they see you're in a scenario where you're going to have to use it, they wait until you do, walk off the stage mid-delay, and aerial you when you get close to the edge. You can avoid this type of gimp a little better with the standard recovery because they have to at least guess where you're going because of your control in the air. Also, the gust hitbox is a huge gimmick that's just unneeded and you would be better off on stage setting up a mega gunman or throwing cans at their face depending on the custom moves you're using. It also makes you have the same problem that Mega Man's recovery has. It's great and all, but if you get hit away from the stage when your second jump is gone, you're 100% dead. I don't see how it's that useful with that delay in there. I also don't see any scenarios where you would get gimped with normal that you wouldn't with Super Duck Jump.

Mega Gunman creates pressure against Megaman. Not only does it eat lemons and multiple forward smashes, it also puts the opponent in the scenario where they have to either go in the air, attempt to grab you, throw out an unsafe dtilt/metalblade, or literally run through Mega Gunman, all of which are either very predictable or DH has answers to. Note that I was playing against custom Megamans with an angled side-b and a reflector down-b that I can't remember the names of, but I'd assume leaf shield is a free fair if they bring it out, and standard side-b is beat very easily by shield + the endlag doesn't make it worth it. If he throws Metalblade out far enough to where you can't punish him for it, you grab it and suddenly his options against Mega Gunman are all unsafe assuming you throw Metalblade into the ground (or you can bait a reaction and combo with Metal Blade, but that's a different story).

I wanna test with Quick Gunman a lot. You make it sound like so much fun. Do you have any videos of you using it?
 

DunnoBro

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I disagree. The amount of scenarios where you get knocked off stage and are low enough to where Super Duck Jump makes you recover quicker than regular is pretty small in my opinion. The second they see you're in a scenario where you're going to have to use it, they wait until you do, walk off the stage mid-delay, and aerial you when you get close to the edge. You can avoid this type of gimp a little better with the standard recovery because they have to at least guess where you're going because of your control in the air. Also, the gust hitbox is a huge gimmick that's just unneeded and you would be better off on stage setting up a mega gunman or throwing cans at their face depending on the custom moves you're using. It also makes you have the same problem that Mega Man's recovery has. It's great and all, but if you get hit away from the stage when your second jump is gone, you're 100% dead. I don't see how it's that useful with that delay in there. I also don't see any scenarios where you would get gimped with normal that you wouldn't with Super Duck Jump.
The main advantage of super jump is how low you can recover from, and the speed in which it actually lasts start to finish, this is why you don't see sonics getting gimped. While you can't change up your horizontal trajectory, you can change the timing of your vertical. Being able to recover low like that is the main appeal.

Another variable is how much better gunmen are for securing your recovery, since they stay at a set level. You just bring them out at that level and drop below it to recover. (only quick and default do this though)

Also, super duck jump goes much much higher than megaman's upb. This contributing to how gimpable he is and less leeway he has to be tricky.
Think more sonic, less megaman in regards to how easy they are to gimp, and why.

Mega Gunman creates pressure against Megaman. Not only does it eat lemons and multiple forward smashes, it also puts the opponent in the scenario where they have to either go in the air, attempt to grab you, throw out an unsafe dtilt/metalblade, or literally run through Mega Gunman, all of which are either very predictable or DH has answers to. Note that I was playing against custom Megamans with an angled side-b and a reflector down-b that I can't remember the names of, but I'd assume leaf shield is a free fair if they bring it out, and standard side-b is beat very easily by shield + the endlag doesn't make it worth it. If he throws Metalblade out far enough to where you can't punish him for it, you grab it and suddenly his options against Mega Gunman are all unsafe assuming you throw Metalblade into the ground (or you can bait a reaction and combo with Metal Blade, but that's a different story).
Mega gunmen is very slow and a player at all familiar with that will know how to function for the time they can. But metal blade goes right though it, I don't see how it's unsafe.

It sounds like you want to outcamp him, which can work for the neutral but mega just contributes to the grind and doesn't really help kill megaman, which he has no problems doing to us.

I wanna test with Quick Gunman a lot. You make it sound like so much fun. Do you have any videos of you using it?
I'll be making some videos soon.

Some other recent stuff about customs I found:

One-shot can: Another custom probably written off too soon. While it's still likely the weakest general option, it actually does have some interesting variables beyond the seemingly absurd simplicity of it.

1: Gimps/kills off the side MUCH better.
It has ridiculous horizontal knockback, larger usable blastzone... It's kind of like if yoshi's eggs semi-spiked and came out quicker, with a less obvious arc.

2: COMBOS
Similar to the zigzag can, or reverse shot, if angled right (generally just above/behind an enemy, easily done by short hopping it, or below an enemy on a platform) it will knock them into you. However, at a much lower trajectory meaning you can combo off of this at higher percents, unlike the other cans. At stage level, this can easily convert to an upsmash or dair when both would kill. That's how low. Off-stage, this can be a stage spike.

There are also throw > can follow-ups, not sure about trueness but definitely forces reactions for free. And can also send them back into you for MORE combos.

3: Teams synergy
While the other cans may work with certain characters fine, or even best with them, this one is definitely more generally usable with teammates. Simply due to the sheer speed this can covers the stage, and can be easily made to avoid hurting the teammate. Either by early activation, or late (it will do 1% chip damage unless it is manually activated, or lasts too long.

Overall though, the big issue with duck hunt is recovering, and rushdown. This helps with neither of those. It also provides no stage control, or synergy with other projectiles.

The only foreseeable use in singles, is when stage control is either less potent, or countered like in the RosaLuma matchup. Or on stages like castle siege where the statues ruin us normally, but here we're more of a threat since this can kills very early with the walkoffs.

Jump Snag:

Becoming my favored recovery after some recent findings.

1: Actually is VERY helpful offstage.
While not ideal, the hitbox does come out horizontally enough it can scare away WoPs like sheik, kirby etc. Only those with incredible range and disjoints seem to beat it. (Shulk, Bowser, etc)

2: Becomes a valid edgeguard option.
It's very horizontal knockback pretty much ensures a stage spike if the final hit connects and you're facing inward. You can also change where the hitbox is after starting the animation.

Essentially, most of duck hunt's good edgeguarding options are downward. Aerials, projectiles, etc. But a rising hitbox to threaten them with adds some interesting depth.

Most notable against characters threatened by lingering hitboxes, such as lucario, bowser jr, and diddy. But non-sweetspotters like ike, shulk, and kirby are also very threatened by this during ledge battles.

3: MUCH quicker startup and ascent. This along with a hitbox makes just this way harder to edgeguard. But not just that, due to the quicker time, it lets you more immediately put the can inside your flight path, and the speed of the can's ascent and your own more closely align than default upb. Meaning even further added safety, as even if they get through, you will be blasted upward towards the stage. Far more preferable.

(Though the timing is more strict due to the shorter ascent, so it seems best to always trick shot with your double jump offstage before upbing unless you're above lip-level while offstage.)
 
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DunnoBro

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In testing, the fact snag has such a quicker startup, hitboxes, more synergy with your projectiles while recovering, and actually beats out and can stage/semi spike many recovering characters such as diddy, shulk, rosalina, the pits, etc making it a valid contribution to our edgeguard arsenal make it objectively the best to me. Super jump always felt wonky to me, it might be best as an actual recovery ON IT'S OWN but snag is overall superior in the majority of matchups.

I'd say use super jump in matchups where recovering predictably, but quick and low is the best course of action. Generally against chars without good lingering hitboxes to put in your trajectory, or have horizontal kill moves that make the very vertical trajectory not enough at times. (Fox, Falco, Yoshi, are prime examples)
 
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Spirst

 
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I think snag's rather poor distance is negated by the fact that DH will seldom go that deep offstage in order to make it an unviable move. I haven't given it much usage but I'll definitely start experimenting with it now and see how it works.

Can someone tell me what I'm supposed to be doing with Zigzag Can exactly? I hear about it's potential and have given it some experimentation but I'm curious as to why people seem to find it a superior option to the default Trick Shot. You have to constantly align yourself within positioning of it in order to escape pressure which works well when you can set it up but at that point, it feels like TOO much micromanagement.
 

DunnoBro

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Zigzag is mostly good with platforms and for traps, and is also good with walkoffs and while edgeguarding. I think it's also decent anti-camp. But I think default is actually the best. Like, even if there was potential both trick and zigzag take such massive amounts of time to invest in understanding, I'd probably only ever use zigzag on somewhere like castle siege so im not hindered by the statues as much, and it's also more threatening with the nearby blastzones. But that's about it.

But the default is just so versatile and good for cracking open defenses. Probably the best designed projectile in the history of the game imo.

I think zigzag might let DHD be more aggressive, but generally he's worse that way unless the enemy is very defensive.

It's a great move that I think any other projectile user in the game would love, but default is just more reliable imo.
 
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DunnoBro

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After finding myself essentially never using the default side special with customs on, I decided to take a closer look at the others.

Essentially, quick gunmen accomplishes everything default clay shot does, but faster, easier, with less endlag and knockback meaning less punishable and starts combos, and the only uses default really gets is some fancy stuff with the can or when gunmen is down.

The only downside to always using quick really is there's no benefit for hitting shields since clay bounces... But honestly 9 times out of 10 it amounts to nothing.

After testing, I think both custom sides definitely have their uses. Especially with how little endlag they have, and how fast they go out. Allowing you to just toss them out more willy nilly.

I like clay shooting because it's at just the right trajectory to work after our combos. (Just slightly upward and diagonal, goes right above a grounded can and covers landings well) and also enables kill combos since if timed/spaced correctly, it will hit enemies into you for upair/nair. More kill-set ups are always welcome with duck hunt.

However, rising clay has some unique qualities we may have overlooked before.

1: Since it can't be shot, this means you never lose control of the can. And you can also trick shot immediately after using it, unlike the others where you need to shoot them first. Against rushdown characters where every second matters and DHD needs the can to maintain frame advantage, this is huge.

2: The smash toss goes low. Really low. This lets it bypass many attacks that outright destroy the other pigeons at their normal trajectory. (Mostly dash attacks, projectiles, and lots of whiffed stuff)

3: It goes far... really far. And is pretty fast. Essentially, it's even better than quick gunmen for redirecting a far away can. Or just hitting the can in general.

Hitting the can seems to change the pigeon's trajectory to be more diagonal, and prevents it from rising so high. shooting the can while it's finishing up covers a lot of ground. Very similar to how default gunmen and the can threaten areas together.

4: Since it rises at the end, it encourages the opponent to either sit in shield, or jump toward you. They can't just jump away.

Now, while all this is helpful, it's still generally only doing about 2-5% before resetting to neutral due to low knockback and dhd being too far to do anything. And maybe catching people landing. (It's obviously meant for threatening high up opponents, after all. Soft tossing up along with a can is super hard to deal with.)

But the real value comes up when combined with quick gunmen. Essentially, if grounded smash toss ever hits around mid-high percent, it sets up for quick aces relatively often. And we all know how crazy those guys are with short hops.

Also another note about Quick Aces, it seems like the black one, and the tall one with their more horizontal knockback sets some characters up for DHD to fox trot fsmash at mid-high percents.

It's actually pretty amazing how safely duck hunt can set up for kills and combos with it like that.

However against multi-jumpers or characters with anti-projectile approach options like diddy's monkey flip, or ganon's drop kick, clay shooting might be better as it is a superior anti-aerial.
 
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DunnoBro

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Actually rising clay also seems to fulfill the role of mega gunmen, it's so fast and goes so far and disallows them to just use retreating jumps. It goes under most projectiles to smack their owner from across the other side of the screen.

Duck hunt feels pretty "perfect" with 1222.

Default can for close range/approaches
Quick Gunmen for mid-range and follow-up/punishes
Rising Clay for long range, landings, and forcing approaches.

And then quick snag to make you much scarier off-stage due to the peed of his recovery, and the threat of a stage spike with the hitboxes.

Rising is just an amazing harassment tool that works during almost every game state and is extremely free to just throw out since it doesn't lock you out of your can, and has very little start-up and ending lag. And also lets you manage your stage control across larger stages like FD, and town and city better.

When other projectile users get amazing ones, i definitely believe this will help fight them.
 
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Bedoop

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I honestly prefer 1232 for my Duck Hunt.

Can't really go wrong with Stock Trick Shot, it's useful for alot of things.
Plus it's fun to have a Can just sit infront of you sometimes for when someone tries to rush you down. Just explode them then n' there.


Rising Clay, as @ DunnoBro DunnoBro said, doesn't lock your can into a cage until you break the Clay, plus it's a good harassment tool to other projectile spammers from afar. Like :4zss:, :4greninja: and :4fox:. That's useful.

I like SDJ because, well, I like having recovery moves for Recovery unless my Recovery is good enough or I have another special to get the job done (Like pairing Exploding Balloons and Rising Lloid on a Villager set).
If someone tries to Gimp me, I'll either send out a Rising Clay or an Ace to cover me while I recover back onto the stage, plus the Windbox I get protects me if someone like :4mario: tries getting a FAir on me, it'll just push him away or make him whiff.
Plus I play :4sonic: every now and again so I like the similarities.


Quick Draw Aces is great as a Backup option, if someone is hot on your hind legs and you don't have time to throw a Can or a Clay out, you can summon an Ace to stall them while you either escape or get to work on your Duck Hunt shenanigans.
And like I said before, it can be used to cover you while you try to recover so Edgeguarders have to worry about dodging the Ace whilst you get back to safety.
It's also great for punishing rushdowns, so people like :4littlemac: and :4bowser: have to think twice before getting in the fray.


But these are just my opinions. :4duckhunt:
 

DunnoBro

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The points where you'll sweetspot the ledge with SDJ and where a mario will actually use fair have little if no overlap.. Snag's hitbox comes out faster anyway so it'd beat it most times also.

Also, starting to wonder about Zigzag. As things get quicker, and more aggressive... We'll obviously have less time to set-up. And zigzag while less versatile, is much more reliable as it disappears based on time passed/shots fired, and has a more immediate trajectory. Letting you set up while recovering, landing, or with the opponent right in front of you! Unlike the other can, it won't explode in your face on their shield, and can still be used to pressure them.

It also works beautifully with quick gunmen, and rising clay. They combo into each other well and also let you easily set zig zag up more incrementally like the original can.

Mega gunmen, is honestly overall inferior to quick. It's ridiculous it even does less damage than them. Quick is seriously a can-level projectile, and patches many of our weaknesses (it's an excellent anti-edgeguard, landing option, and kill set-up). However, the reliability and sponging, as well as ability to set it up while landing give it obvious match-up specific benefits. It's great for absorbing many projectiles, and on larger stages like FD and town and city where stage control is more difficult, it's helpful.

It also creates a huge "no zone" obstacle course with zigzag instantly that covers most of FD, giving DHD a lot of advantage while fighting inside there.

I'd definitely use it in select matchups on certain stages, but generally quick will be my go-to.
 
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WispBae

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The points where you'll sweetspot the ledge with SDJ and where a mario will actually use fair have little if no overlap.. Snag's hitbox comes out faster anyway so it'd beat it most times also.

Also, starting to wonder about Zigzag. As things get quicker, and more aggressive... We'll obviously have less time to set-up. And zigzag while less versatile, is much more reliable as it disappears based on time passed/shots fired, and has a more immediate trajectory. Letting you set up while recovering, landing, or with the opponent right in front of you! Unlike the other can, it won't explode in your face on their shield, and can still be used to pressure them.

It also works beautifully with quick gunmen, and rising clay. They combo into each other well and also let you easily set zig zag up more incrementally like the original can.

Mega gunmen, is honestly overall inferior to quick. It's ridiculous it even does less damage than them. Quick is seriously a can-level projectile, and patches many of our weaknesses (it's an excellent anti-edgeguard, landing option, and kill set-up). However, the reliability and sponging, as well as ability to set it up while landing give it obvious match-up specific benefits. It's great for absorbing many projectiles, and on larger stages like FD and town and city where stage control is more difficult, it's helpful.

It also creates a huge "no zone" obstacle course with zigzag instantly that covers most of FD, giving DHD a lot of advantage while fighting inside there.

I'd definitely use it in select matchups on certain stages, but generally quick will be my go-to.
I'd love to see some vids of everyone using customs in tourney. I'm still unlocking all of them on my 3ds =[ (MISSING ONLY LIKE 1 OR 2 FOR DOGGY)
 

Spirst

 
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I'd love to see some vids of everyone using customs in tourney. I'm still unlocking all of them on my 3ds =[ (MISSING ONLY LIKE 1 OR 2 FOR DOGGY)
Unlocking customs is the most frustrating thing ever. I literally got two of the same custom in one attempt. Like...really..?
 

WispBae

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Unlocking customs is the most frustrating thing ever. I literally got two of the same custom in one attempt. Like...really..?
2 sounds nice. I've gotten giant gunmen SO MANY F***ING TIMES!

Edit: @ Spirst Spirst nevermind finally got all my customs =3 "get on my level dawg"
 
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DunnoBro

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If it's 3DS you can send it to me to unlock for free with powersave.

For Wii U, the easiest option (not quickest) seems to be pseudo-idling smash tour or amiibo matches. The quickest is crazy orders but it demands some specific equipment and a lot of effort. I prefer the easier methods since you can watch and do other stuff while you do that. Making it much less stressful.
 

WispBae

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If it's 3DS you can send it to me to unlock for free with powersave.

For Wii U, the easiest option (not quickest) seems to be pseudo-idling smash tour or amiibo matches. The quickest is crazy orders but it demands some specific equipment and a lot of effort. I prefer the easier methods since you can watch and do other stuff while you do that. Making it much less stressful.
Like send you the copy of my game?
 

Spirst

 
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2 sounds nice. I've gotten giant gunmen SO MANY F***ING TIMES!

Edit: @ Spirst Spirst nevermind finally got all my customs =3 "get on my level dawg"
I had all the DH customs since November, you scrub.

Unless you meant you have all the customs for each character now...in which case, damn.
 

WispBae

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I had all the DH customs since November, you scrub.
What the woof did you just ****ing say about me, you little *****? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in doggy day care, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on multiple homes with cats, and I have over 300 confirmed can KO's. I am trained in canine warfare and I’m the top Duck Hunt in the entire smash community. You are nothing to me but just another buttsniffer. I will wipe you the out with cuteness the likes of which has never been seen before on this Final Destination, mark my words. You think you can get away with saying that **** to me over Smashboards? Think again. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Petco's across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare to roll over and play dead, boyo. The clay pigeon that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your stocks. You’re dead, "Lucky". I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can KO you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my standard attacks. Not only am I extensively trained in not barking when the doorbell rings, but I have access to the entire arsenal of chewy, squeaky toys and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable tail off the face of the the dog park, you little mutt. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” customs were about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have not peed on the carpet. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now they'll be no more treats for you, you bad doggy. I will summon 8-bit gunmen all over you and you will drown in them. Bad boy.

Nah, I thought you didn't have doggy's customs, my mistake. They're the only one I've unlocked all of them for, it's very tedious work...
 
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