Stupid fox players.

[Brookman]

I love all the new players posting asking about dounble shining and shining out of your shield. So silly. Fox doesn't need all that stuff, just never miss l-cancels into shines and never miss up airs after an up throw. Shoot lasers accordingly and that's all you really need. Don't trouble yourself with all the overly-technical aspects of playing fox, that's just a trick to keep new players sucking @ this game.

 

[Cort]

Although I have a great deal of respect for Zelgadis, I think his shined blind video also ruined the newbie Fox community. All I ever see poo Foxes do is attempt to shine spike. Over and over.

Just ****ing back air. It's 100x safer and more effective. There's a lot of obvious situations where shine spikes are easy, but unless you're KoreanDJ, just back air and stick to safe shine spikes.

Unless they're friendlies, or something.

 

[v3x?]

Improving technical skill is the key to creating a more dynamic gameplay style - creating more options for your oppenent to worry about.

Im sure someone with your experience knows that mindgames are the key to everything - and having more options available to you can only be a plus.

 

[Kumagari]

While I feel that it is somewhat true that people tend to forget the potential of Fox's basic moves, which are so good, I must agree with v3x? in that having a firm grasp of all the advanced techniques gives you access to a diverse set of mind games that can change on the spot. This is critical to playing well.

 

[Brookman]

Although I have a great deal of respect for Zelgadis, I think his shined blind video also ruined the newbie Fox community. All I ever see poo Foxes do is attempt to shine spike. Over and over.

Just ****ing back air. It's 100x safer and more effective. There's a lot of obvious situations where shine spikes are easy, but unless you're KoreanDJ, just back air and stick to safe shine spikes.

Unless they're friendlies, or something.

Two years ago (or was it one?) it was zelgadis, this year it's shiz. New players see videos of people moving extremely fast and they get caught up in that. My newly developed fox style is one I like to call "Shut up and upsmash." There aren't any like, mind numbingly good "mind games" that only fox can perform due to his need for more technical ability than marth. I don't care what his potential is, because people who play up to his technical perfection are stupid. Mew2king is easily the most technical player around, but, even at his fox's peak he never did anything overly technical.

The key to winning with fox isn't "mindgames" or playing fast/technically or shine spiking at low percents, it's playing safe. That goes for pretty much every character.

Improving technical skill is the key to creating a more dynamic gameplay style - creating more options for your oppenent to worry about.

Im sure someone with your experience knows that mindgames are the key to everything - and having more options available to you can only be a plus.

While I feel that it is somewhat true that people tend to forget the potential of Fox's basic moves, which are so good, I must agree with v3x? in that having a firm grasp of all the advanced techniques gives you access to a diverse set of mind games that can change on the spot. This is critical to playing well.

I don't find any points relavent to discussion in these posts.

EDIT// All that matters in friendlies is up throw-> shine-> upsmash-> shine-> upsmash-> whatever

 

[Omni]

Here's how most of my Fox ditto's go on FD.

Grab --> up-smash --> walk forward common backwards tech roll --> up-smash --> up-smash --> up-air.

That's like 90% in damage and it works like a charm on all these silly tech happy Fox's.

 

[Brookman]

Improving technical skill is the key to creating a more dynamic gameplay style - creating more options for your oppenent to worry about.

Im sure someone with your experience knows that mindgames are the key to everything - and having more options available to you can only be a plus.

Here's how most of my Fox ditto's go on FD.

Grab --> up-smash --> walk forward common backwards tech roll --> up-smash --> up-smash --> up-air.

That's like 90% in damage and it works like a charm on all these silly tech happy Fox's.

Thanks omni

 

[v3x?]

Go watch lunin. He's smart and technical. (Im almost certain more technical that m2k, just not as smart... or geeky )

Safe is different depending on how good you are technically... Obviously you're not consistant enough with fox yet. There's nothing wrong with playing technical. People scare easy - and get nervous - creating openings by their mistakes.

There's a reason there arnt any foxs that "Shut up and upsmash" - its because its boring, both to watch and play. Playing to win can still be fun.

Plus technical doesnt have to be a moveset, technical can also be really complex movement mindgames.


As to omni's comment, thats to all the stupid tech happy fox players - some players are still technical and dont fall for obvious grabs.

 

[Brookman]

Give me a minute vex, I'll show you something.


Mew2king: http://tia.nealpro.com/playerhistory.aspx?id=7

Lunin: http://tia.nealpro.com/playerhistory.aspx?id=73

 

[Omni]

As to omni's comment, thats to all the stupid tech happy fox players - some players are still technical and dont fall for obvious grabs.

You're right. The problem is the majority of "technical" Fox players out there focus so much on technical skills, they forget the raw basics of smash. Those super fast Fox players have a bad habit of teching EVERYTHING just because it's technical. It really is a trap in itself if a person doesn't understand the fundamentals.

My advice to all Fox players? Use Mario.

 

[MASAHIROx]

amen to that. I completely agree.

Anyone that knows how my fox plays knows that im not the most technical. But i still get the job done and can beat foxes that are far more technical than me...just play smart and LOOK technical (ie. wavedashing and dashdancing a lot.) and keep moving quickly. BE aggressive when it calls for it. So many new fox players think thats there this untouchablelevel that they can get to just by practicing alone. Go out there are get ***** by someone good constantly...and your fox will slowly learn how to survive with a little help from your friend. Thats what worked for me.

I mean i just started to chaingrab and cant really waveshine effectively. And im just started to use jab as well. lol just ****ing upsmash out of shield!

You'd be suprised of the high level of foxes that i can keep up with like Redd and Kirbster.

 

[Brookman]

You're right. The problem is the majority of "technical" Fox players out there focus so much on technical skills, they forget the raw basics of smash. Those super fast Fox players have a bad habit of teching EVERYTHING just because it's technical. It really is a trap in itself if a person doesn't understand the fundamentals.

My advice to all Fox players? Use Mario.

I only played mario and falcon for a bout a month, now I only use grabs and dair to grab and l cancel perfectly into up tilts.

sometimes I illusion off the stage when edge guarding though

 

[SCOTU]

It doesn't hurt just to have technical skill, it depends on how you use it. Having it isn't what make people stupid, it using it stupidly that makes them stupid. Seriously, having additional skills doesn't make any negative difference, when used properly, they can only help. The key is to use them correctly. It's true that often there is a simpler, easier method to do in a scenario, and this is often the best one, but sometimes technical skill gives you additional options that otherwise aren't available.

 

[Kumagari]

Oh illusioning off the edge... such a downer... T_T;;

 

[SCOTU]

I'm guessing that the illusion edgegaurding came from falcon right?

 

[v3x?]

Give me a minute vex, I'll show you something.


Mew2king: http://tia.nealpro.com/playerhistory.aspx?id=7

Lunin: http://tia.nealpro.com/playerhistory.aspx?id=73

Interesting read.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying lunin is better, he's more technical but not AS smart, hence mew2king doing so much better. But following the line of lunin's fox 'career' if you will, you'll see the dramatic improvement after his huge thread on mindgames and thinking while you play.

But he still kept his tech skill i'll say that lol.

and omni unfortunatly i know that to be so true i've definately been there, but there's certainly a lot of tech fox's that do think as well... With a ratio of about 30:1 or something lol

 

[Excel_Zero]

I agree with Brookman. Double shine is useless really. The only useful thing out of it is shining enemies on walls... but for that there is the waveshine infinite.

Spacing for teh win!

 

[SCOTU]

It's got limited uses, and there are other options, but it can be used to trick heavy shield grabbers, or for breaking low shields. but like i said, there are other options.

 

[Kumagari]

Is double shining really that much more useful then just grabbing out of your shine? If you're trying to wear down the shield I would rather just go for an uthrow -> uair...

 

[Brookman]

does anyone have frame data for jc shining out of the shield vs something like marth/peach/samus/bowser/mario's up b's out of shield?


Lunin DOES play with a great amount of technical skill. So much that I think it hinders him. He does have a lot of good tricks though, from the videos I've seen of him. The reason m2k plays marth more now (from what I can gather) is because marth is JUST as good without needing so much effort to play well. being able to inverse infinite frotaz for 75% (was it?) and all that is impressive, but I don't think that style will ever win a major tournament, and that is all that really matters in regards to this discussion.

 

[Excel_Zero]

Exactly. If they are waiting for the shieldgrab and you shine, just wavedash behind them and wait what they are going to do (like wavedash out of shield, jump, roll if you are lucky) and punish them. It's Fox... punishing it's his specialty.

Edit: I play as fast as my tech skill allows me... but only in friendly matches. On tournaments I play a lot different. Being patient is the key, going like crazy without thinking will just get you ***** by the enemy (if he is any good).

 

[Kumagari]

does anyone have frame data for jc shining out of the shield vs something like marth/peach/samus/bowser/mario's up b's out of shield?

I'm not 100% but I think it is 3 frames after you jump cancel your shield that you can shine.

 

[SCOTU]

to comment on several things: frame data for jc shine out of shiled:
it has essensially the same effects as samus/ bowser's up-b out of shield (except faster than bowsers). since he has invincibility the frame the shine hits, it can break anything just as well as the screw attack, slightly better than bowsers (slower jump time) and better than mario/ marth's since they don't have invincibility.

Second, a shield grabber can grab you before you can get a wavedash behind them. A good sheildgrabber waits for the waveshine, and gets you before you can get anywhere.

 

[Brookman]

I actually meant to ask for frame data of jc grabbing out of shine vs those up b's out of shield.

so it would be the shine's shield stun + the time it takes for the up b hit box to come out vs the jc lag + the amount of time it takes for the grab hit box to connect? I think?


stupid SWF server -.-

 

[SCOTU]

fox has a 6 frame advantage over their shield after a shine, so for their up, it's 6 + jump time - 1 + time it takes to up b.

it's either a 6 frame or 3 frame advantage (i think fox's is 6, falco's is 9, but it could be 3 & 6 respectively)

 

[Excel_Zero]

IF the shieldgrabber does that then jump the **** out of there. :D

 

[SCOTU]

yeah, that's the other option i was thinking of. but multishining will hit them with a shine, which is usually good. shine grabbing/smashing is the other option.

 

[Excel_Zero]

But I think going with the multishining can be a bit risky, for a +4 or +5 % that is. If you miss it and end using a jump and shining, then you will have to cancel it, wasting your double jump, and if the enemy shielded through that entire process he can punish you badly, especially Marth.

 

[Brookman]

So long as jc grabbing out of the shine is invulnerable to those up b's out of the shield then that is probably the best option to go with. The only thing you would otherwise need to worry about is the other player buffering a side step and countering with their own grab while you're still lagging from missing yours.

edit//I've actually started jc grabbing out of shines as fox/falco...it's really good >_> but it's not a flawless tactic (to my knowledge) especially if it becomes predictable I'd imagine. regardless of everything though, no matter how technical you are and how well you can pressure a shield or something, all the opponent needs to do is roll away.

 

[SCOTU]

i'm pretty sure that the shine grab is inescapable. and it's definately something i'm trying to work into my strategy. if you're facing the wrong way, you can also shine turnaround, but then it's escapable (by adding an extra 3 frames for the turnaround). This is where a double shine could come in handy, but is not necessary. I don't even use them much, just when i feel like being flashy in friendlies.

 

[FastFox]

I agree with this thread.

Simplicity is often the best approach. But, then again, it's always nice to take Fox that extra mile and do some cool trixies. As far as my playing goes, I can't really help it. I just do whatever comes to me, which usually involves tons of technical bull****.

The shine grab is nice if you're trying to catch your opponent off guard, but so is jump cancelling your shine and landing behind the opponent's shield with a bair or nair, which I'd actually consider much more effective when it comes to getting out of the "attack zone", so to speak. You can just turn around and run away, if needed.

This also ties in with simplicity. Technical skill is never actually reliable, no matter how good you are. You can still be grabbed out of a doubleshine against a shield, and there's always the chance that you may screw up and put yourself into a sticky situation. A lot of players think too much when they play, saying things like, "Well, if I do this, I can then do THIS", which results in a strong focus on the said mindset. If that focus is broken, say, by a grab, you can be totally caught off guard, and forced to once again re-think your strategy, something that will slow you down and possibly give the opponent the upper-hand.

Going back to the effectiveness of simplicity, a prime example is varying the height of your doubleshines so that the second hits right above the head or the top of the shield. This prevents being grabbed, and allows you to jump out of that shine with an aerial. On platforms, I like to shine -> shine -> jump onto a platform -> wavedash off or fall through with an aerial. It sounds like a lot, but it's tons better than risking being chaingrabbed when you screw up your grounded doubleshines. Not only that, but it's great for catching your opponent off guard.

Players often mistake the situational reaction of a player for mindgames, when they're totally different. There are situational applications of one's mind, which is ultimately defined as "mindgames", but then there's the situational reaction of a player which can be placed under the "mindset" category. The most common example of this is when someone either jumps out of their shield or grabs when they've blocked an aerial. No, this is not a mindgame, it is simply the player reacting to what has been done to them.

I don't know how I got into discussing mindgames, so I'll stop.

In conclusion, simplicity and technicality work side by side to contribute to how you play.

 

[Cort]

I don't know how I got into discussing mindgames, so I'll stop.

+ rep

 

[Brookman]

I'll retalliate your single +rep with a massive amount of negative reppage.

 

[FastFox]

And I will retalliate with pasta.

 

[Brookman]

I wanted to retalliate with a plate of loaded waffle fries from friendly's...but Prof. X will have to do.

Prof. Xavier knows all about mindgames...mirite?

 

[FastFox]

Naw, he's an expert in mindfuk.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I have nothing to do with this discussion beyond finding it interesting, yet I will still retaliate with an L doll:

 

[Goldkirby]

<_<

>_>

 

[Brookman]

Anyway, in conclusion I'd like to say that approaching anyone with fox is stupid. Play likea ******, shoot lasers, dash dance into grabs a lot. It's real good, just like the pie.

 

[SSBZalamander]

the problem with this is that fox(in my opinion) isn't for beginners because of how you have to get used to his overall speed and falling, but once that is taken care of you should be fine, and you need good reflexes for the reflector