Strength of gimping and edgeguarding in Sm4sh

[Lord Horatio]

My usual way of killing people in any smash game is to get them off stage to gimp and/or edgeguard them to kill them at the lowest possible percentage. I'm trying to do that in Sm4sh, but I'm having a hard time for a few reasons:
1. Lack of edgehogging
2. Insanely generous ledge sweet spots
3. Most high tier characters have ridiculously strong recoveries
Watching many professional matches, I see that the player with stage control doesn't bother preventing the recovery because it seems there's simply nothing one can do to prevent a Shiek, Diddy, or Rosalina from recovering.
My question is how viable the aforementioned strategies are in this game and what characters are best at them?

 

[Nocally]

Watch some matches of ESAM using Pikachu, he´s a really good edgeguarder.

and Despite it being hard to edgeguard some characters, ledgetrapping is still a strong tool since it keeps your opponent in an unfavorable situation.

some other strong edge guarders are Villager, Meta knight and Sheik... sorry for the short post.

 

[Litany]

I'm not sure Rosalina is too much trouble to edgeguard personally. But I see your point, recoveries are in general harder to edgeguard in Sm4sh. Watching top players isn't necessarily indicative of the strength of edgeguarding, though, many of the top characters aren't amazing edgeguarders against the other top tiers. For example, Shiek has good gimping capabilities and can go pretty deep, but often she'll have trouble killing characters with good recovery with her edgeguards (aside from Bouncing Fish, which can be a bit telegraphed sometimes).

 

[ぱみゅ]

Edgeguarding is overall underdeveloped.
The opponent is aiming to get back to the stage, and many characters don't have the ability to create a lot of safe paths, making them somewhat predictable, and, while you may be unable to outright kill or edgehog every time (this isn't Melee or Brawl), there is still a lot of damage to be inflicted when you try to to capitalize.

 

[CanisInfernus]

My usual way of killing people in any smash game is to get them off stage to gimp and/or edgeguard them to kill them at the lowest possible percentage. I'm trying to do that in Sm4sh, but I'm having a hard time for a few reasons:
1. Lack of edgehogging
2. Insanely generous ledge sweet spots
3. Most high tier characters have ridiculously strong recoveries
Watching many professional matches, I see that the player with stage control doesn't bother preventing the recovery because it seems there's simply nothing one can do to prevent a Shiek, Diddy, or Rosalina from recovering.
My question is how viable the aforementioned strategies are in this game and what characters are best at them?

Diddy and Rosalina actually have some of the most exploitable recoveries in the game:
Diddy has tremendous hitstun if he's hit out of using his rocketbarrel pack, plus it's usually pretty predictable and he's vulnerable while charging it. If you force him to recover with it, you're actually very likely to get a kill out of it.
Rosalina's recovery goes far and fast, but it's linear and lacks a hitbox so it's pretty easy to intercept, to the point that a mandatory part of learning Rosalina is "reliably teching stagespikes."

On the flip side though, yeah, a lot of other top tier characters have disgustingly good recoveries. Special points to Sheik, who can pretty much recover from anything short of the blast zone, is invulnerable during her up B, and also her up B is a kill move.

 

[Azazel]

Ill try to keep this in context of options all characters have access to

The ledge
The main hardship is that the ledge gives intangibility so the position has a lot of timing mix-up power.
it'b be naive to say there are only 5 options (get-up attack, neutral get-up, ledge jump, ledge drop,ledge roll) because stay on ledge intangibly gives lots of timing mix-up room.

2 main strats counter intangible stay on ledge.

the 1st big hitbox/long lasting hitbox. If you had a smart bomb it can be timed to cover all the options and stay on ledge in tangibility, but you dont have access to that in competitive son it's usually just cover a few with a long lasting hitbox (sheik nair) because long lasting hitboxes cover multiple timing mix-ups

Or they have a really big one to cover all like Ike eruption but it's still somewhat susceptible to timing mix-ups because it lasts 3 frames

The 2nd is to directly threaten intangible stay on ledge.
because it's intangible it can't be threaten by hitboxes (except 2 frame, but it's possible for warp recoveries to bypass this so i won't mention it)

But trumping can directly counter the position.

if you trump you remove all of the timing mix-ups + neutral get-up leaving only 4 options. Trump, ledge jump, ledge roll, ledge attack.

Trump removes the tangibility (and on regrab) so essentially they eat a Trump > aerial or regrab ledge (no tangibility) or recover high.

if you assume they always buffer since trump gives a super bad position, you can just counter the 3 options.

Think ZSS tether trumping

In smash 4 drop zones are still as exploitable as ever.
For example vertical recoveries such as dolphinslash are super easy to get just that you have to go deep where their mix up options are wall riding FD (you can cp to a stage that pineapples peeps) and offensively shoot their recovery early.

That and most recoveries are vulnerable from behind or don't snap or both (Ike's aether doesn't snap and is super vulnerable from behind).

If you can force drop zones or read one then gimps are still potent

Warps are still invulnerable if done correctly(no 2 frame) and there is no ledgehogging in this game so the above ledge advice is very helpful. Warps Recovery's are just really good

 

[teluoborg]

Edgeguarding is underdeveloped for a good number of reasons. On top of the three you mentioned I'll add a few more :
4-Airdodges have very little lag in the air
5-Unlike Brawl or Melee ledge dropping doesn't give you any invincibility.
6-Again unlike the previous games you don't get ledge invincibility at all if you regrab the ledge without touching the ground or taking damage.

For all those reasons it is easier to get back from offstage to the ledge in Smash 4 than in the previous games, but it is harder to get back on stage from the ledge.

And from the perspective of the edgeguarder you have much less risks and much more reward in preventing your opponent to come back on stage rather than gimping him.

PS : IMO gimping will come back as a prominent strategy at some point in the future, but because it requires much more game knowledge and precision it take more time to develop compared to simple edgeguarding.

 

[MarshieMan]

I generally opt for ledge traps. If youre using a character who doesnt have that luxury, then you can hold shield near the ledge and OoS nair or something to punish their getup option. Holding shield at the edge is just a really good option in general

 

[Problem2]

One huge difference that veterens of older smash games rarely take enough advantage of is having their opponent at the ledge.

In Smash 4, getting from off stage to thr ledge is much safer than in past titles.

But getting from the ledge to on stage is much much harder.

So my advice to any vets picking up Smash 4 is to practice your options for preventing players from the ledge getting back on stage. Ledge grabs have a 2-frame window on start-up where the opponent is latching but still vulnerable. Every character has a move or two that can hit someone during this. It just boils down to the timing mix-up. After that, your opponent has to choose from a set of options to get back on stage. They don't keep ledge invulnerability if they let go and then double jump back on, so that is one popular option that is not nearly as safe as before. The standing get up is a popular option in smash4 as it has almost no cool down, so learn to cover that option well too.

If you establish your dominance over the "ledge to stage" transition, grabbing the ledge no longer becomes very appealing to the opponent and this is where you start seeing more unique recovery paths that you can interact with a more classic smash bros manner.

I recommend looking up vids of beefy smash doods on youtube. They have real informative stuff.

 

[MarshieMan]

^to add to this, not every character has the same ledge options. For example, youll never be able to gimp a character like ZSS or sheik. But if youre against robin etc, you can actually chase them off stage effectively. Some characters (like Diddy) have more than your standard 4 get up options on the ledge, so ledge traps and shielding by the ledge are less effective.

Whether you choose to chase your opponent off the ledge or not is very character specific, and always keep your opponent's options in mind before choosing how to stop them.

 

[Uffe]

There are certain characters you don't even want to try to edgeguard if they put you in danger. A character like Falco or Ganondorf for example. It depends on the location they're recovering and which option they're using, though. Falco's side B spikes, and Ganondorf's side B grabs and kills. A lot of people like to recover low. It depends on who they're up against, though. Certain characters want to recover high against certain match ups. So with my main, I don't want to recover low against Rosalina because of the possibility of getting my thunder eaten. Diddy Kong and Rosalina have recoveries that can really screw them over. Rosalina's recover does no damage, so she's left open. Diddy, depending on where he's recovering, is also left open. Hell, I dropped a banana on a recovering Diddy and killed him that way because his up B takes time to charge in order for him to launch high enough. But really, it all comes down to how your opponents are recovering. So if they're recovering low, then they're in a danger zone. If they're recovering high, especially with a good recovery, then they're pretty safe. And I need to start trumping more now that I think about it.

 

[Sleek Media]

2-frame punish is a stupid mechanic that completely undermines the offstage game for most of the cast. Along with absurdly safe high tier recoveries, it's often best to try and cover ledge options instead.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I main Bayo, arguably the best edgeguarder in the game, so I feel yah when it comes to not being able to do anything about a recovery. It's annoying, but also a regular facet that can make or break a character. Meanwhile, my recovery is so good and difficult to challenge that going to the ledge against me is far superior as my ledge options aren't nearly as good. So long as everyone has the same opportunities there, or has to generally follow the same rules, I don't much mind. Zelda and Mewtwo sucked in Melee despite having good recoveries, it's not a game breaker.

 

[Anyparxia]

Ľˎ[Ս֩ΕҺءZם

 

[DungeonMaster]

This is a very different smash game than the previous iterations and indeed not every character can efficiently edge guard and some characters are near impossible to do so against them.
However there are some effective edge guarders, as people have mentioned, pika, bayo for relatively simple setups and Samus. D3 for more complex.
The ledgesnap is hard to target for characters without lingering hitboxes but it's a very useful skill to learn.
Although Samus' bomb is a shade of its former self it's still a high priority active hitbox for nearly 3/4 of a second and literally no recovery in the game is safe because it combos into any move, including D-air.
I made a little video on it a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtcSc0qPlv0

You have to have good timing and in general a good read but it's still an important part of the game, particularly for lower tier characters.

 

[jaimex2]

What are people's thoughts on trying to footstool instead of attack? There's a few character's that don't cope at all with a fs.

I've been experimenting going out deep, waiting for an airdodge and timing jump as I hover above with some success. They worst that can happens is you end up eating an up air. Obviously you would never do this against a character that can mess you up off stage like Ganny or Cloud.

 

[DunnoBro]

I main Bayo, arguably the best edgeguarder in the game

Who's arguing that? She's bar none the best in the game.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Who's arguing that? She's bar none the best in the game.

Pika, Sheik, and Villager all do great **** tho, like Villy's probably better at catching low recoveries, while Pika's got more mobility and as good of a recovery to go wherever he wants, but you're still probably right.

 

[DunnoBro]

Pika, Sheik, and Villager all do great **** tho, like Villy's probably better at catching low recoveries, while Pika's got more mobility and as good of a recovery to go wherever he wants, but you're still probably right.

Nope. Bayo is better. Nair + Witch twist do pretty much everything pika does, and sheik is only good at carrying people horizontally. She can't dropzone edgeguard well at all. Villager's edgeguarding is much less consistent, since he relies on bowling ball snipes.

Villager is likely better in some MUs, but Bayo outperforms the hell out of sheik and pika. She just has too much mobility and options.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Nope. Bayo is better. Nair + Witch twist do pretty much everything pika does, and sheik is only good at carrying people horizontally. She can't dropzone edgeguard well at all. Villager's edgeguarding is much less consistent, since he relies on bowling ball snipes.

Villager is likely better in some MUs, but Bayo outperforms the hell out of sheik and pika. She just has too much mobility and options.

mmmmm I respectfully disagree. I believe that fox edge guards just as well as bayo if not better in most MUs. also pika is underdeveloped, with only captain L and esam doing anything and they are more focused on optimizing pikas stage game as of late, rather than optimal edge guards. Also Wii Fit Trainer has some promising stuff coming from johny numbers. I'm not saying that these characters are better, just that their edge guarding is more extreme.

 

[DunnoBro]

mmmmm I respectfully disagree. I believe that fox edge guards just as well as bayo if not better in most MUs. also pika is underdeveloped, with only captain L and esam doing anything and they are more focused on optimizing pikas stage game as of late, rather than optimal edge guards. Also Wii Fit Trainer has some promising stuff coming from johny numbers. I'm not saying that these characters are better, just that their edge guarding is more extreme.

In no way does fox edgeguard as well as Bayo. He has potent dropzone edgeguards with fair > footstool, but that's his ONLY consistent off-stage tool. Not comparable to bayo in any way.

Pika isn't as underdeveloped as bayo either. He'll never catch up

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

In no way does fox edgeguard as well as Bayo. He has potent dropzone edgeguards with fair > footstool, but that's his ONLY consistent off-stage tool. Not comparable to bayo in any way.

Pika isn't as underdeveloped as bayo either. He'll never catch up

How many Bayo players are there again? Pink fresh, Salem, captain jack, Saj, Logic... that's a lot of top/notable players pushing the meta for one character... pika has Esam... captain L is just now making small waves. This game is deep with untapped meta the likes of which none of us will truly understand for a long time. It just seems ignorant to throw out blanket statements like "bayo is best edgeguarder undisputed" especially when you don't bother to elaborate on your statement.

A charazrd player beat ranai in a large Japanese tournament. A lot of ppl thought charazard would "never catch up" in the meta because nobody good wants to use what they perceive as a less than viable character.... I'm just saying there is a lot we don't know yet.

 

[DunnoBro]

How many Bayo players are there again? Pink fresh, Salem, captain jack, Saj, Logic... that's a lot of top/notable players pushing the meta for one character... pika has Esam... captain L is just now making small waves.

Maybe the reason so many players play is because she's so amazing? Bayo irrefutably has more edgeguard option. And it only adds to my point that Pika won't catch up due to less invested players.

Witch time, twist, nair, dair, bullets, fair... Pika has jolts, thunder, bair, nair, and dair. Most of which are far less potent. You can make the argument that time might somehow bring to light that pika's edgeguarding becomes better over time, but there's no reason to think Pika's edgeguarding will ever catch up.

I fear your character bias is what keeps you from accepting this? Though I won't argue on that basis.

This game is deep with untapped meta the likes of which none of us will truly understand for a long time. It just seems ignorant to throw out blanket statements like "bayo is best edgeguarder undisputed" especially when you don't bother to elaborate on your statement.

Not really? Every metric of data we have at our disposal dictates she IS the best edgeguarder. And there's absolutely no reason to expect pika will overcome her, and by that logic ANY other character could.

A charazrd player beat ranai in a large Japanese tournament. A lot of ppl thought charazard would "never catch up" in the meta because nobody good wants to use what they perceive as a less than viable character.... I'm just saying there is a lot we don't know yet.

A character beating another higher tier doesn't mean it 'caught up' so not sure why you brought that up?

 

[Anyparxia]

Ľˎ[Ս֩ΕҺءZם

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Maybe the reason so many players play is because she's so amazing? Bayo irrefutably has more edgeguard option. And it only adds to my point that Pika won't catch up due to less invested players.

Witch time, twist, nair, dair, bullets, fair... Pika has jolts, thunder, bair, nair, and dair. Most of which are far less potent. You can make the argument that time might somehow bring to light that pika's edgeguarding becomes better over time, but there's no reason to think Pika's edgeguarding will ever catch up.

I fear your character bias is what keeps you from accepting this? Though I won't argue on that basis.


Not really? Every metric of data we have at our disposal dictates she IS the best edgeguarder. And there's absolutely no reason to expect pika will overcome her, and by that logic ANY other character could.



A character beating another higher tier doesn't mean it 'caught up' so not sure why you brought that up?

What is there for me to accept? I said pika has less representation than Bayo and IM RIGHT. The only other thing I asserted was that I don't think that Bayo Is the best edge guarder in the game and guess what... some people agree with me! I didn't even say Pikachu was better. If edge guarding is as underdeveloped as everyone says it is then there is certainly no reason to declare an "irrefutable best" if we clearly don't know everything there is to know. I only brought up the charazard case because I wanted to show that the game is still young and there are completely unexplored characters that could have an impact on the meta later on. We don't know how well X character edge guards if nobody is willing to try and experiment with X. Most edge guarding is MU specific anyways so who edge guards who best depends.

 

[DunnoBro]

What is there for me to accept?

That pika's edgeguarding is weaker than Bayo's. Not that pika has less representation which I never contested.

If edge guarding is as underdeveloped as everyone says it is then there is certainly no reason to declare an "irrefutable best" if we clearly don't know everything there is to know.

Did I ever use the term 'irrefutable' except to define which character had more options? Which is overall better I never declared so sternly.

Most edge guarding is MU specific anyways so who edge guards who best depends.

What makes characters so 'good at edgeguarding' is how many MUs it is relevant in. It doesn't really 'depend' when you take in all factors.

 

[ぱみゅ]

To me it is kinda difficult to gauge whether is more important to "have more options" like Bayonetta, or to "keep your options for a longer time" like Pikachu.
Bayonetta sure has a lot of coverage but a lot of those options are gone once the opponent stays in the air long enough to make her use her double jump, while Pikachu can stay offstage for a long time, make it back with a Quick Attack and try again.