Starter Stage Discussion

[zeldspazz]

No dont worry, I indeed know full well what a starter is.

My question however, is what exactly is the criteria for a stage to be accepted as a starter. I mean I normally see this starter setup:

-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Yoshi's Island Brawl
-Smashville

Yes that indeed looks like a fine list. However, what about the counterpick stages? Counterpick stages are not permitted to be played in the first round of a set, but are still deemed worthy of play? What?

Now, Im sure the reason perhaps for these stages as starters is because they are "neutral" for most-all characters, as in they dont swing huge advantages for either character. But, there is a flaw in this thinking. There is no stage in this game that is neutral enough for all characters, Im gonna say it right now. Because of the insane difference in movesets and porperties of every character finding stages that are balanced for all is borderline impossible.

Now, Im going to ask, why arent these stages starters:

-Lylat
-PS1
-Halberd
-Castle Siege
-Frigate Orpheon

Come on, they are counterpick stages. They are perfectly fine stages that are playable on. They also dont have any major gimmics in them (nothing dissappears/breaks that cause huge stage differences, not too big, etc.) You know what my belief is? People are afraid of moving stages of some sort. All these stages change form or move in some way or another. Lets break them down:

Lylat: This place should definitely be able to be played on the first match of a set. Guess what, if you flatten out the bottom of the stage and rais the middle platform, you have a Battlefield that tips. But ZOMG it moves....so? Half the time I dont even notice that the stage is tilting. The stages ledges are hard to sweetspot...so? We *****ed and moaned about FD when it was "too hard" to sweetspot. Figure it out, dont be lazy. Try concentrating, not everything in this game is going to be easy.

PS1: I know this place is used as a starter in some places and it should be. Again, ledges hard to sweetspot, suck it up. In its starting form this stage is just like BF without a center platform. Now, again people are scared by changing stages. But if you look at each individual stage, theres really hardly anything that can be easily exploited, except for the wall in the fire formation, and the windmill. Who's this stage benefitting immensly that keeps it off the Starter list in some places?

Frigate Orpheon: Sorry Olimar, ZSS, and Ivy, the left side of the first formation ***** you. But guess what, strike that stage, we have stage striking for a reason. For the most part this stage has a nice layout. No huge gimmics, nothing that completely shuts down any character (Olimar gets edgeuarded anyway x.x) and I dont know what character completely dominates here. Again, the stag flips halfway through. Try jumping before it switches, and all your problems are solved. Theres a ****ing alarm that tells you well before it changes. Both formations of this stage would be starters on there own I bet if they didnt switch halfway through.

Gonna stop there, you get the idea. Why is there fear of experimenting and expanding the stage list. IMO, Yoshi's Island Brawl is more of a counterpick stage material than say Frigate, Lylat, etc.

What are your views on the starter stage system as of now, and please explain why the stages Ive listed cant be starters.

In all honesty, I think that we should just eliminate starter stages all together and merge the counterpick and starter stages, but thats another discussion with more variables and I dont want to get into that.

tldr: Tell me what the criteria is for a starter stage, and why the starter stage list is so small when some of the counterpick stages are clearly imo starter stage material.

Discuss!

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

First off, Yoshi's moves and it's a starter. So no, stuff isn't just CP because it moves.

The tipping on Lylat does more than you might think. It screws up projectiles pretty hard, as well as recovery.

PS1 has walls to exploit. Marth's Dtilt infinite says hi.

Halberd has hazards. Big lasers don't belong on starters.

Siege has walkoffs.

Orpheon doesn't have gimmicks? What? IT FLIPS OVER. Plus the fact that it's very difficult for a good number of characters to recover on it.

 

[zeldspazz]

First off, Yoshi's moves and it's a starter. So no, stuff isn't just CP because it moves. Thats really just a platform though...I mean the whole stage movements or massive changes or scenery

The tipping on Lylat does more than you might think. It screws up projectiles pretty hard, as well as recovery. Whats wrong with screwing with projectiles exactly? People are constantly complaining about Brawl being a campy game. Also, puting yourself in a position where it is hard to recover from is ultimately your fault. The only way truley the tilting screws your recovery is if you are below the stage, which is a dangerous place to be anyway.

PS1 has walls to exploit. Marth's Dtilt infinite says hi. On I believe one of five transformations, and you're an idiot for being in that spot underneath the tree if you are there.

Halberd has hazards. Big lasers don't belong on starters. Big lazers are also extemely easy to avoid, it has a fricking lit up target.

Siege has walkoffs. On only one portion of the stage, and there are many platforms that you can go to to avoid the ground.

Orpheon doesn't have gimmicks? What? IT FLIPS OVER. Plus the fact that it's very difficult for a good number of characters to recover on it Yeah it flips over, but if you simply jump into the air above the acual stage portion of the stage your problems are solved. Strike it if your character has a problem recovering.

Thanks I was waiting for a response like this

All those things are definitely true. Though, all those you said are very small things, which makes them unwarranted of a ban correct?

So here is my question. If despite these things they are eligible for play, then why is it they are specifically banned from being used the very first match, despite there being stage striking to almost eliminate any major inbalances?

 

[stingers]

lylat doesn't just screw up projectiles, it also aids them. it all depends on positioning

frigate, just because there's a surefire way to not die when the stage flips doesn't stop it from being a huge gimmick and very distracting. not that thats necessarily a bad thing

 

[zeldspazz]

frigate, just because there's a surefire way to not die when the stage flips doesn't stop it from being a huge gimmick and very distracting. not that thats necessarily a bad thing

What's so huge about it? It gives you a warning, it flips for like 2 seconds, and then you continue fighting on a stage that is even more like the current starter stages than before. It's distracting? How exactly x.x

 

[stingers]

it interrupts the flow of gameplay and forces you to adapt to a new terrain. the warning doesn't ready you for the change of pace it only warns you well enough that you won't die from it. since 99% people (i'm sure there are some freaks out there who've studied it extensively ) don't really know exactly where you'll end up you'll have to adapt on the spot to your new positions.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Thanks I was waiting for a response like this

All those things are definitely true. Though, all those you said are very small things, which makes them unwarranted of a ban correct?

So where is my question. If despite these things they are eligible for play, then why is it they are specifically banned from being used the very first match, despite there being stage striking to almost eliminate any major inbalances?

I don't see how a laser shooting at the players is a 'small thing.'

A lot of your points were "yeah there are hazards, but you can avoid them if you're good." I feel like this is a bad argument. I could use this for any stage. 75m? "Oh, anyone good can avoid everything and still have a fair match."

No imbalanced stage should be used as a starter. Saying "Oh you can strike it" isn't a good argument either. I could use that for any stage as well. I can strike 75m and Hanenbow, should those be legal?

 

[zeldspazz]

So here is my question. If despite these things they are eligible for play, then why is it they are specifically banned from being used the very first match, despite there being stage striking to almost eliminate any major inbalances?

tldr: Tell me what the criteria is for a starter stage, and why the starter stage list is so small when some of the counterpick stages are clearly imo starter stage material.

Before I argue over individual stages anymore, can we discuss these first? Because once we figure out what this is, then we can go into specifics.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Stages become Starter stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that each stage is overall a fair stage with only minimal advantages and disadvantages given that has an overall low number of hazards, ineffective hazards, or basic hazards that can be predicted and implemented into a strategy.

Stages become Counterpick stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that they are not an overall fair stage in that they give specific advantages and disadvantages to certain types of characters, so much so that it can influence the match directly. Or, that the stage has hazards that disrupt play to such an extent that it cannot be assumed the player can avoid them with minimal effort or the hazards have such incredible damage and knockback that they can directly influence the outcome of a match.

Straight out of the Brawl ruleset.

 

[zeldspazz]

Good good. Seems like a good definition.

So, you still have yet to explain to me why exactly they are allowed to be played, but not in the first match. I want to know why they arent just banned outright.

Why is it I can play on Frigate in the second and third match but I cant in the first?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Because counterpicks are used so that the loser of the previous match can get an advantage in the next one. It'd be unfair if someone could get an advantage for the first match, as the first match is intended to be as neutral as possible.

 

[zeldspazz]

Is there a character in this game that accels on every stage I listed? What character has a clear advantage on all of them? MK is the only one who comes to mind, but he is so far ahead of the rest of the cast it wouldnt matter anyway. So how will a character guarantee an advantage in the first round?

FD, btw, is not even a fair stage for example. Just because something doesnt have hazards doesnt mean it's balanced. That place gives MASSIVE advantages to projectile users. Which is why I dont like how people define a neutral stage. Hazards =/= unfair.

EDIT: Food time :O I hope to see discussions when I return ^_^

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Is there a character in this game that accels on every stage I listed? What character has a clear advantage on all of them? MK is the only one who comes to mind, but he is so far ahead of the rest of the cast it wouldnt matter anyway. So how will a character guarantee an advantage in the first round?

FD, btw, is not even a fair stage for example. Just because something doesnt have hazards doesnt mean it's balanced. That place gives MASSIVE advantages to projectile users. Which is why I dont like how people define a neutral stage. Hazards =/= unfair.

I feel like you don't get the point of CPs. They are used so that the loser of the previous match has a greater chance of winning the next match. They are used to give an unfair advantage to a certain character. Yes, it is an unfair advantage. Now it does not make sense for that stage, which gives an unfair advantage to a specific character or characters, to be viable to be played for the first match, which is intended to be neutral.

 

[zeldspazz]

I feel like you don't get the point of CPs. They are used so that the loser of the previous match has a greater chance of winning the next match. They are used to give an unfair advantage to a certain character. Yes, it is an unfair advantage. Now it does not make sense for that stage, which gives an unfair advantage to a specific character or characters, to be viable to be played for the first match, which is intended to be neutral.

Youre right, those stages in the starter list are intended to be neutral. But the point is that a place like Final Destination/Smashville is as unneutral as some of those Counterpicks. Like I said just because a stage is flat and doesnt change/have hazards by no means it is neutral. FD screws over anyone of their opponent has a better projectile than them. Falco, Pikachu, Pit, and the likes are excellent here and give a strong disadvantage to characters like ZSS who may be forced to play here in the first round. Frigate Orpheon gives a strong advantage to people with versatile recoveries and who have an excellent close combat game. Olimar gets screws here, while MK would destroy. Yet because FD is flat and Frigate flips, FD is automatically viewed as the more neutral stage of the two. That is wrong.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Youre right, those stages in the starter list are intended to be neutral. But the point is that a place like Final Destination/Smashville is as unneutral as some of those Counterpicks. Like I said just because a stage is flat and doesnt change/have hazards by no means it is neutral. FD screws over anyone of their opponent has a better projectile than them. Falco, Pikachu, Pit, and the likes are excellent here and give a strong disadvantage to characters like ZSS who may be forced to play here in the first round. Frigate Orpheon gives a strong advantage to people with versatile recoveries and who have an excellent close combat game. Olimar gets screws here, while MK would destroy. Yet because FD is flat and Frigate flips, FD is automatically viewed as the more neutral stage of the two. That is wrong.

Neutral stages give less of an advantage to one character over another, which is why they're considered neutral. Just look at the definitions.

 

[zeldspazz]

Neutral stages give less of an advantage to one character over another, which is why they're considered neutral. Just look at the definitions.

I think youre missing my point completely ;_;

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I think youre missing my point completely ;_;

No I'm not. Sorry, it's partially my fault for using the word "neutral". Yes, FD isn't completely neutral. But it leaves more up to skill than any stage with hazards, such as Frigate or something. That's the point of a neutral.

 

[zeldspazz]

No I'm not. Sorry, it's partially my fault for using the word "neutral". Yes, FD isn't completely neutral. But it leaves more up to skill than any stage with hazards, such as Frigate or something. That's the point of a neutral.

So youre saying that flipping a stage over maybe 1-2 in a match is less neutral than allowing a projectile user like falco take the complete flatness of a stage and shutting down a character for an entire match by camping?

Doesnt seem right to me ;_;

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

So youre saying that flipping a stage over maybe 1-2 in a match is less neutral than allowing a projectile user like falco take the complete flatness of a stage and shutting down a character for an entire match by camping?

Doesnt seem right to me ;_;

Did you not just read my post? I said that it leaves less up to luck. If you'd read the definitions, that's essentially why stages are considered neutrals. Obviously no stage is completely neutral.

 

[zeldspazz]

But nothing is based on luck in Frigate. I guess you can say you are lucky to be in a particular place as the stage flips, but the stage gives you a few seconds heads up, plenty of time in most circumstances to take precaution for a second.

Maybe I just dont see the hazards as extreme as most people *shrugs*

Also, lol @ us being the only two discuss this except the guest appearance by steeler

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

But nothing is based on luck in Frigate. I guess you can say you are lucky to be in a particular place as the stage flips, but the stage gives you a few seconds heads up, plenty of time in most circumstances to take precaution for a second.

Maybe I just dont see the hazards as extreme as most people *shrugs*

Again:

Stages become Starter stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that each stage is overall a fair stage with only minimal advantages and disadvantages given that has an overall low number of hazards, ineffective hazards, or basic hazards that can be predicted and implemented into a strategy.

Like FD.

Stages become Counterpick stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that they are not an overall fair stage in that they give specific advantages and disadvantages to certain types of characters, so much so that it can influence the match directly. Or, that the stage has hazards that disrupt play to such an extent that it cannot be assumed the player can avoid them with minimal effort or the hazards have such incredible damage and knockback that they can directly influence the outcome of a match.

Like Frigate.

Read them. It's pretty simple.

 

[zeldspazz]

*Sigh*

Again, my point is that I do not agree with those things stated. Really look at that part that you described to be like FD.

I do not believe it is an overall fair stage
I do not believe it only gives minimal advantages
It has an overall low number of hazards, but having no hazards does not automatically make it neutral! The point of a neutral stage is to give both sides as equal chance of winning the first match as possible, but why is this case just because it has no hazards?

Thats my point, I know why they are starters, I just think those definitons for what a neutral stage is are very closeminded.

Im gonna go brawl now, Ill check back later

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

*Sigh*

Again, my point is that I do not agree with those things stated. Really look at that part that you described to be like FD.

OK, then take it up with the SBR.

I do not believe it is an overall fair stage
I do not believe it only gives minimal advantages

It's all relative. You have to look at it compared to other stages. Compare FD to Frigate. Then look at the things you said you don't agree with. Do your opinions change?

It has an overall low number of hazards, but having no hazards does not automatically make it neutral!

Yeah, I know.

The point of a neutral stage is to give both sides as equal chance of winning the first match as possible, but why is this case just because it has no hazards?

That's not the only reason.

Thats my point, I know why they are starters, I just think those definitons for what a neutral stage is are very closeminded.

Again, take it up with the SBR. I didn't make the definitions.

 

[Steeler]

Also, lol @ us being the only two discuss this except the guest appearance by steeler

*namesearch* :embarrass

i think you mean stingers unless you are referring to my post in the stage legality thread a month ago

the problem is simply that there is not enough variety. allow 7 or even 9 stages and we are fine. as it is right now, the neutrals heavily favor characters that rely on stage control (diddy, ICs, falco, etc). FD and company should be neutral, but with other stages to balance them out.

 

[Mic_128]

Lylat is a starter >.>

So how will a character guarantee an advantage in the first round?

FD, btw, is not even a fair stage for example. Just because something doesnt have hazards doesnt mean it's balanced. That place gives MASSIVE advantages to projectile users.

So strike it. The stage striking system is designed so that you can remove two stages out of the starting 5 and your opponent can do the same. This way you can take out the stages that give you a disadvantage (you might as Ness strike Yoshi's because of the shy guys blocking PK thunder) or ones that give your opponent an advantage (FD against a ranged character)

 

[zeldspazz]

*namesearch* :embarrass

i think you mean stingers unless you are referring to my post in the stage legality thread a month ago

the problem is simply that there is not enough variety. allow 7 or even 9 stages and we are fine. as it is right now, the neutrals heavily favor characters that rely on stage control (diddy, ICs, falco, etc). FD and company should be neutral, but with other stages to balance them out.

That's what I think too ^
I think we more variety on the stage list would be ideal. And yeah I meant stingers, I was rushing lol :D

@Mic: Lylat isnt a neutral everywhere, and its not in the SBR Stage List either iirc? Also, what you can do on FD you can also do on Smashville, thats half the stages right there. And even on BF and YI though smaller, are still flat and simply shaped enough where, like steeler said, characters like Diddy, Falco, etc have excellent advantage and control of the game. It also so happens the starters favor the top/high tiers, just saying.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, most of those stages you listed there are fine starters; people are just dumb about what stages they want to be starters...

 

[Swordior]

I know I haven't really competed yet, but I think this is kind of silly. Isn't making up for the shortcomings of a stage what makes you good? But, then again, I feel items apply too, but people would complain on that, saying it's then based on luck. Yes, it's part luck, but how you react to the situation is what makes you the best. Not "You got lucky." Despite how much fun it's to say.

 

[Swordior]

Anyways, if I will add something to the forum, Frigates turning stages may seem small, but it sucks for some. There are times you can't jump or are attempting to recover and end up on the bottom of the stage, which only flying characters can really recover from. Plus, no stage grabs is obnoxious, removes strategy, and screws over up-Bs that require a ledge, but you mentioned that.

Um... Lylat cruise isn't that horrible, but the tilt can be annoying. Especially with some recoveries in which you would just get to the ledge.

I'll agree with the wall offense in PS 1, any character with a rapid attack can do the same thing as a noob with a fan can.

As for the advantage that control characters have, uh, never noticed it that much.

As I said, I don't care, but as it has also been said, the rules are a vote between people. You want more stages added, convince the masses.

 

[BSP]

All you have to do on Frigate to not get stuck under the stage is jump or be higher than floor level when the stage flips.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yes, we all know how to avoid getting stuck under Frigate. Just because it's easy to avoid for most people, does that make it viable as a starter?

 

[Bynine]

So because Lylat tilts slightly and makes projectiles move slightly differently than usual, it isn't a starter stage? Surely it doesn't make that much of a difference?

 

[zeldspazz]

Yes, we all know how to avoid getting stuck under Frigate. Just because it's easy to avoid for most people, does that make it viable as a starter?

um, yeah I dont see why not lol. Im going to be honest when I watch livestreams of like nationals and sets on youtube, I never see anyone CP Frigate really, Im assuming because its a pretty neutral stage. I think youre really just making the whole flipping thing more extreme than it actually is.

Everyone has their opinion though, so I respect that.

 

[HeroMystic]

No dont worry, I indeed know full well what a starter is.

My question however, is what exactly is the criteria for a stage to be accepted as a starter. I mean I normally see this starter setup:

-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Yoshi's Island Brawl
-Smashville

That is actually a bad set-up. Not only does it not have enough stages but you can't even stage strike with 4 stages.

Now, Im going to ask, why arent these stages starters:

-Lylat
-PS1
-Halberd
-Castle Siege
-Frigate Orpheon

All of those stages except Frigate is Starter/Counterpick. Frigate is the only counterpick.

I'm assuming you're going off of your local tourneys, in which case you gotta raise the alarm with them for stuff like this.

I wouldn't make Frigate a starter stage btw.

 

[zeldspazz]

I constantly check the tourney listings from all over the country (I like to see how my friends do ) and Ive never seen a tournament where all those stages are used in starter. Ive seen PS1 and Lylat as starters before but usually they only add them so there are five stages, because youre right you cant strike with 4. Ive never seen Castle Siege or Halberd as starters, and Frigate imo is a fine starter.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

um, yeah I dont see why not lol. Im going to be honest when I watch livestreams of like nationals and sets on youtube, I never see anyone CP Frigate really, Im assuming because its a pretty neutral stage. I think youre really just making the whole flipping thing more extreme than it actually is.

Everyone has their opinion though, so I respect that.

Maybe people just don't like Frigate. Iirc it gives Oli a better chance of pulling purples than other stages, but then again he can't recover on it either. It doesn't really benefit that many characters, and if it does, there tend to be better stages for that character anyway.

The fact that the flipping thing can KILL YOU makes it pretty extreme in my opinion.

 

[PieDisliker]

Starter stages are also referred to as Neutral. Frigate isn't Neutral. Left side *****, not just tetherers, but even characters like DK. This is a perfect example of a counterpick... Delphino is probably a better starter than this stage.

I've also been flipped from that stage while in the air...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPT2fT-Nl7w 3:52 for proof.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

That is actually a bad set-up. Not only does it not have enough stages but you can't even stage strike with 4 stages.


All of those stages except Frigate is Starter/Counterpick. Frigate is the only counterpick.

I'm assuming you're going off of your local tourneys, in which case you gotta raise the alarm with them for stuff like this.

I wouldn't make Frigate a starter stage btw.

For Frigate, If the stage is a counterpick, but the majority of characters can do well on the stage, can't it just be banned by the chars that dislike it?

 

[teluoborg]

No dont worry, I indeed know full well what a top tier is.

My question however, is what exactly is the criteria for a character to be accepted as a top tier. I mean I normally see this tier list:

-MK
-Snake
-Diddy
-Falco

Yes that indeed looks like a fine list. However, what about the high tier characters ? High tier characters are not permitted to be in the top part of the tier list, but are still deemed worthy of play? What?

Now, Im sure the reason perhaps for these characters as top tier is because they are "effective" for most-all characters, as in they swing huge advantages against all characters. But, there is a flaw in this thinking. There is no character in this game that is good enough to surpass all characters, Im gonna say it right now. Because of the insane difference in movesets and porperties of every character finding a character that is dominant for all is borderline impossible.

Now, Im going to ask, why arent these characters top tier:

-Marth
-DDD
-Olimar
-Pikachu
-ROB

Come on, they are high tiers. They are perfectly fine characters that are playable with. They also have major strenghts in them (nothing missing that cause huge matchup difference, not too light, etc.) ...

Etc Etc Etc.

I hope you get my point.



And for this post to not be totally useless :
SBR makes a recommandation list, but the TOs are the ones who choose in the end.
You want to see these stages in the starter list of a tournament ? Then organize it.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I have always wondered why Delfino plaza isn't a neutral

my personal neutral list would be

Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokemon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise (if your character has some problem with the tilting...you don't need to play on it)
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Battlefield

Which due to having 8 stages, it is still possible to have stage strikes, possibly 2 strikes 2 strikes, 2 strikes, and then 1 strike (choose the first stage). If lylat cruise is that much of a bother, then that stage can not be a neutral and the list would have 7 neutrals, which strikes fine anyway.

I personally can barley see Frigate orpheon as a Starter but I see the issues, so I prefer keeping it off the neutral spot.

The main problem I see with Halberd as a starter is how low to the ground it is. It would be the same I feel if a stage was completely neutral but had an incredibly high ceiling (think Smashville but with a ceiling the size of Japes's ceiling). It would still have its issues.