Stall = win

[mercenaries]

sadly this is what has become of super smash bros., I can beat most players who actually tries to hit me, but as for those "who run to the other side of hyrule castle waiting for me to do any sort of attack but not reach him and then run up to me and grab", it is inevitable. The funny thing is, I stalled against people I usually lose against and ended up winning...how sad.

possible comment answers:

"then why don't you stall?"
b/c laser spamming = no fun and time wasting

"ur noob just run up to him and combo the **** out of him"
i run up to him and then (e.g samus) either
1. drops tons of bombs while hiding underneath that hyrule green structure thing
2. drops bomb i get hit causing him to combo / charge shot me
3. drops bomb goes under the green structure and over it and jumps to the other side of hyrule and repeats

"stalling is defense yo"
no it isn't defense doesn't mean you try to avoid every hit so you can charge your little dk punch or your samus shot, defense is another way of saying offense really. there is no defense in smash, i just consider it stalling.

another thing, stalling doesn't neccessarily mean running away, stalling could also mean NEVER trying to attack your opponent and always waiting for THEM to come to YOU. I find that also stalling since it puts you in a vulnerable position to randomly try and hit them and then they can counter easily since they never attack and they always get teh counter.

for example:
two foxes
stalling fox : "sfox"
innocent fox: "fox"

sfox runs under green structure
fox runs towards him and jumps down with f-air
f-air obviously misses
sfox runs up to him, grabs and fox gets comboed to death

sfox remains under green structure
fox is annoyed and waits for that turd to come out
sfox shoots lasers at fox
fox is forced to either run to otherside of hyrule or stop that cursed sfox
fox chooses to jump down in shield (attempt to protect himself)
sfox runs grabs & repeats combo.

sfox decides to leave the green structure
sfox does a few short jump laser hops and moves to the left side of hyrule
fox dives in with a dair
sfox attempts to grab but
fox rolls and dodges
sfox DSMASH
fox gets hit
fox gets back on platform but
sfox uses a variety of grabbing attempts and smash attempts, eventually he gets fox in a dair combo
fox eventually gets owned

as you can see, even when sfox comes out, if sfox never tries to run and HIT fox he has a much higher percentage of connecting a combo while fox tries to use aerials to start his own.

fin.

 

[tigerbombz]

GG..gg indeed

 

[hebrewhammer]

cliffs no one wants to read that

 

[SmashThugZ]

no, stall doesn't mean win. you're just not able to beat that strategy, that's all.

 

[mooseproduce]

Yeah... you just don't sound very good, no offense. A laser-spamming fox under the green house of death isn't THAT hard to beat. If all you're doing is randomly jumping in there with a fair, then you'd be getting your arse kicked no matter WHERE the other fox was.

 

[Nephiros]

And BTW, Samus is a she.

 

[holy_pyro]

yea i agree with every other person exccept mercenaries, anything you do in a game is a strategy. Stalling is a strategy. Wouldn't make sense if a group of soldiers tried to rush a bunker in Iraq and got their ***** handed to them on a plate. Would be stupid. Obvious thing to do next would be to do some sort of projectiles.

 

[mercenaries]

-------------------------------------------
no, stall doesn't mean win. you're just not able to beat that strategy, that's all.

you're being really general, there isn't alot of strategy in THIS scenario. If the person under the green house can counter every sort of assault from above no matter what you do, and then combos you from 0 to death, how do you beat them? you have to stall. and then in this game, firing bombs / boomerangs or whatever projectiles
is simply avoided with a block (meaning there's no chance of getting the guy out of there). THEY ARE FORCING YOU TO GO TO THEM, WHICH GIVES THEM THE ADVANTAGE DOWN THERE. obviously you WILL get them eventually a few times and get them down to 3/2 stocks but i'm saying since they have the inevitable cheap tactics they will most likely win since YOU have to run to them. instead of both of you trying to use various tactics to get them out of the stage, you are trying to hit him, so that he has a chance to counter, while your are hopelessly chasing him around just waiting to get countered.
---------------------------------------------
Yeah... you just don't sound very good, no offense. A laser-spamming fox under the green house of death isn't THAT hard to beat. If all you're doing is randomly jumping in there with a fair, then you'd be getting your arse kicked no matter WHERE the other fox was.

i was giving an EXAMPLE. obviously i've tried other things. and it's not "just" a laser spamming fox.
it's a fox that spams lasers to attract you into their grabs of doom on the walls. try grabbing back?
THEY'RE PROS AT GRABBING O_O they will get you before you do. obviously i don't go 5 stocks to 0,
but they do have an advantage.

solution = dream land i guess, but in hyrule, the most used map in the game, stall = win of equal skilled players.

------------------------------------
And BTW, Samus is a she.

ugh i wasn't talking about the character

------------------------------------

yea i agree with every other person exccept mercenaries, anything you do in a game is a strategy. Stalling is a strategy. Wouldn't make sense if a group of soldiers tried to rush a bunker in Iraq and got their ***** handed to them on a plate. Would be stupid. Obvious thing to do next would be to do some sort of projectiles.

you're comparing this game to war? of course strategy is involved in every game, but in this game if you stall, then you ARE forcing the opponent to attack.
This game doesn't compare to war like that.

 

[malva00]

for example:
two foxes
stalling fox : "sfox"
innocent fox: "fox"

sfox runs under green structure
fox runs towards him and jumps down with f-air
f-air obviously misses
sfox runs up to him, grabs and fox gets comboed to death

sfox remains under green structure
fox is annoyed and waits for that turd to come out
sfox shoots lasers at fox
fox is forced to either run to otherside of hyrule or stop that cursed sfox
fox chooses to jump down in shield (attempt to protect himself)
sfox runs grabs & repeats combo.

sfox decides to leave the green structure
sfox does a few short jump laser hops and moves to the left side of hyrule
fox dives in with a dair
sfox attempts to grab but
fox rolls and dodges
sfox DSMASH
fox gets hit
fox gets back on platform but
sfox uses a variety of grabbing attempts and smash attempts, eventually he gets fox in a dair combo
fox eventually gets owned
fin.

In your first example, you don't just jump down and fair when it's dangerous.

In your second example, you don't go down and shield LOL.

Your third example is also ridiculous you keep making fox get owned by sfox just so you think you know what you're talking about.

It's not impossible to get on the same ground level as the other Fox. After that it's just regular fighting for those parts of the stage it's just that they are dangerous parts of the stage because of walls and small amount of floor. It's not always going to be the same player getting punished unless one of the players is much better than the other. If you have two players on the left side of hyrule, something is going to happen they aren't both going to remain unharmed unless one person jumps away.

If the Fox just runs to the other side then you have a camping Fox which isn't fun to play against but you gotta do your best to not randomly try to go in and attack. You gotta limit his escape routes and that can help you get a hit in.

I'll say this though it's easier to get grabbed online down in those parts. On the n64 you have more chance to react.

 

[mercenaries]

I'll say this though it's easier to get grabbed online down in those parts. On the n64 you have more chance to react.

no wonder, i didnt know that

ya my examples were biased but i was trying to get a point across that in a situation of two equally skilled players the stalling one would have an unfair advantage

 

[malva00]

-__________-

 

[rokimomi]

Isnt that why no stalling is a rule in most tourneys?

 

[holy_pyro]

you're comparing this game to war? of course strategy is involved in every game, but in this game if you stall, then you ARE forcing the opponent to attack.
This game doesn't compare to war like that.

sure it does. both war and ssb have a common goal, defeat the opposition (in war for most cases). If the other player stalls, you aren't forced to attack the opponent. It just means the opponent isn't willing to fight and wants the upper-hand which he thinks he does, but he doesnt.

If you and I stood side by side in ssb and i was allowed to attack first what would your first reaction be?

Block?

Well thats too bad because I just grabbed you. In a game of stalling, the person attacking will have the advantage. In the case of the green-house you dont even have to attack, you let the tornado attack him while you're spamming projectiles at him.

Why do you even think the person is stalling to begin with? Once you figure that out you'll be able to beat him.

 

[greenblob]

When the opponent is camping under the green structure, with Fox, you can just land with a laser. You can do something similar with Luigi, but it's harder. With Mario/Pikachu/Link, spam projectiles from above. Otherwise, try to utilize your double jump and fast falling to time it so that you don't get stunned as you fall and do a jab or something right after you land. Or you could shield. If he runs up to grab you, short hop aerial or up smash, depending on the character.

 

[Sweet Pwnage]

lol in my opinion stalling is just another strategy. There are many strategys but i consider stalling cheap, but yes i admit i have done it b4

 

[mooseproduce]

"When the opponent is camping under the green structure, with Fox, you can just land with a laser. You can do something similar with Luigi, but it's harder."

Uhhh... you can do something similar with Luigi, but his fireballs have .0003 priority, and your face would get forcibly removed.

 

[holy_pyro]

"When the opponent is camping under the green structure, with Fox, you can just land with a laser. You can do something similar with Luigi, but it's harder."

Uhhh... you can do something similar with Luigi, but his fireballs have .0003 priority, and your face would get forcibly removed.

is there a list of priority in the ssb forums? (including items?)

 

[mooseproduce]

No, but projectiles basically either have "priority", or they don't. For instance, Samus' beam cannot be cancelled by another projectile if it is fully charged. If it is ANYTHING LESS than fully charged, it can be cancelled (so a less-than-charged beam + a fireball = both projectiles being cancelled; a FULLY-CHARGED beam + a fireball = the beam going through the fireball like a hot knife through a fireball. Also, 2 fully charged beams will cancel just like a non-charged beam and a fireball, or 2 fireballs, or whatever). So it's not like there's variable degrees of priority; it's more like, some projectiles are unstoppable, and all others can be cancelled. (I can't really think of any projectile other than charged beam which is unstoppable...) There's also projectiles which do not collide with other projectiles at all, such as Fox's lasers and the tail part of PK Thunders. Lasers do connect with bombs, but that's 'cos bombs are really items. Uhhhh... what else... PK Fire is interesting; it has "low" priority like an uncharged beam, but if it hits anything that isn't a sheild, it creates a new "pillar of flame" projectile, which has the priority of a charged beam. So like... you can cancel a PK Fire, but cancelling it replaces it with a new projectile, which is unstoppable. Obviously, it's still beneficial to cancel the PK Fire, since the pillar of fire doesn't fly at you. :|

Edit: I just realised that I'm not sure what Link's Boomerang is. It's essentially WITH priority, since it cancels fireballs and uncharged beams and whatnot; but Samus' fully charged beam goes THROUGH it... so maybe there's no priority, high priority, and then boomerang priority, being a special case. I'm fairly sure no other peojectile has priority like a boomerang, but then again boomerangs are just odd projectiles (from a game engine point of view) all round.

Priority with characters is somewhat different; there is none. However, for every frame of character animation, there are up to two hitboxes. There is generally the "body" hitbox, which is what other attacks collide with (although in the case of the first frames of Samus' Up-B, for instance, the hitbox dissapears momentarily, giving the effect of invincibility), and when you are attacking, there is the "attack" hitbox. The general equations of hitbox collision are:

Assume two characters, c1 and c2.
c1.body = first character's body hitbox
c1.attack = first character's attack hitbox

c1.attack + c2.attack (both characters on the ground) = the attacks "clink" together, and nobody is hurt.
c1.attack + c2.attack (otherwise) = nothing, I believe-- for instance, two Links doing fairs, if spaced appropriately, will not hit each other (even though their attack hitboxes might collide).
c1.attack + c2.body AND c2.attack + c1.body = both characters are hit by each others' attack. Of course, if both are on the ground, then generally both attack hitboxes will hit each other and "clink".
c1.attack + c2.body = obviously c1's attack hits c2.
c2.attack + c1.body = same deal, clearly.

So basically, it's never a matter of "priority", but rather one of range. Link's fair might seem like it has a lot of priority, but that's not the case: Link just has a lot of disjointed hitboxes (which means the attack hitbox is way out in front of the body hitbox). So if Link's fair and Mario's sex kick (nair) meet in midair, Link won't be hit-- IF HE'S SPACED CORRECTLY. However, if Link is too close, then both will be hit.

Anyways, that's why spacing is such a big deal in Smash; there is no priority (except, as described above, in special cases like Samus' Up+B). If you're using Link, it's not enough to just ***** his moves... you have to ***** the EDGE of his moves, so your body's hitbox is far enough back from your opponent. Finding oddities in character hitboxes is necessary as you fight better players. For instance, during the beginning frames of Yoshi's utilt, usmash and fsmash, his body hitbox gets very small as he rears back; this makes his utilt supremely annoying (if someone is a **** an used to spam it... *******) until you learn to watch out for it. Likewise, Mario & Luigi's umashes have tiny body hitboxes... and huge attack hitboxes. :D My DK would get ***** if it wasn't for the body hitbox on his Up+B: during the opening frames, his body hitbox is all in the front, while his attack hitbox is all in the back. So if you're facing away from your opponent, and you Up+B, you're essentially invincible for a few frames. His charged punch is similar, except that he rears backwards, and then punches forwards.

Some funky hitboxes which are less obvious are Falcon's double jump and Samus' uair; both of these animations "pull up" the body hitbox, so if you hit C twice extremely fast with Falcon, or if you do a uair right off the ground with Samus, then you can actually dodge ground attacks/grabs that otherwise would have caught you. When I play Samus, I try to get into the habit of uairing EVERY TIME I JUMP, just so that the movement is automatic when I need to dodge Mario's god**** grab, or Yoshi's dash attack.

This post is going to be huge.

Here's another interesting thing about attack hitboxes. ^_^ Smash Brothers, like essentially every game that has moving objects, stores the positions of its characters and projectiles as coordinates on a 2d plane (or 3d, if it's a 3d game-- which Smash isn't). So your character's position on the screen is defined as an (x,y) point, where x is a horizontal value and y is a vertical value.

Here's what I'm working up to: Smash calculates the direction attacks send opponents based on a "direction" value for that attack, and which side of your x coordinate your enemy is on. So if you hit someone with Mario's nair (or any other sex kick), and they're in front of you, they'll fly forwards. If they hit the back of you, they'll go backwards. The cool thing, though, is that this is the case for any other move as well-- including bairs, fairs, etc. So for instance, I generally use the FRONT of Yoshi's bair. I have a good sense of where Yoshi's "centre" (i.e. the location of his "x" position) is, and so I position him so that my opponent is the opposite side of that centre from Yoshi's feet. The bair hitbox extends over Yoshi's centre, and so when I hit the other character, they fly forwards instead of backwards... but they don't go as far as they would have if I'd hit them with Yoshi's feet. (That has to do with the damage and power of a move decreasing over time-- Yoshi's bair hitbox crosses his horizontal centre a number of frames into the animation, when the move has grown weaker. It's also possible to bair before you're close enough to the opponent to hit them, and have your momentum carry you into them so that they're hit with the end frames of the bair attack hitbox. Anyways...) So this is great for comboing, because Yoshi's fair is a spike and his nair takes too long to recover from. Depending on the other guy's damage, I can get in 2 bairs, and still not have sent him too far to hit him a third time (with fair or nair, probably). Yoshi is a perfect character to try this with, because his utilts are the perfect setup. Just toss someone above your head, short hop, and position yourself so that they are very close in front of you. Then bair, and if you've timed/positioned it right, they'll be hit lightly forwards. Then you can double jump after them, and do it again. At this point, you've used up your double jump, so R-cancel it, dash forwards, and usmash/dsmash/short hop nair/egg/whatever. (ftilt is actually pretty good for the third hit, because it pops them up in front of you-- perfect for a fair off the edge.)

There's videos of Falcon and Kirby combos which use this "hit them with a bair forwards" idea to make longer-than-usual combos. Ant-d has one video of a physically impossible Falcon combo using it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and that "direction value" for attacks? Jiggly's Pound obviously has a negative direction value, which sends people backwards when she hits them with it. But the same rules about her x-coordinate apply, so you can also hit them with the BACK of her Pound hitbox, sending them forwards.

Uhhhhh... k. I'm done. Good luck.

 

[yoshi_fan]

kirby stall is win -_______________-

Yes, the Up b has some ridcously priority. When i used against my boss kirby, he rans up, and start ONLY stalling me, when i comboed him two times to deatch ._.

I'm sick of it, so i leave the clan -.-u

And the shots has also a diferents value for priority, but in mot of cases, except greens greens, stall is WIN. ._.

 

[Thino]

Here's another interesting thing about attack hitboxes. ^_^ Smash Brothers, like essentially every game that has moving objects, stores the positions of its characters and projectiles as coordinates on a 2d plane (or 3d, if it's a 3d game-- which Smash isn't). So your character's position on the screen is defined as an (x,y) point, where x is a horizontal value and y is a vertical value.

Here's what I'm working up to: Smash calculates the direction attacks send opponents based on a "direction" value for that attack, and which side of your x coordinate your enemy is on. So if you hit someone with Mario's nair (or any other sex kick), and they're in front of you, they'll fly forwards. If they hit the back of you, they'll go backwards. The cool thing, though, is that this is the case for any other move as well-- including bairs, fairs, etc. So for instance, I generally use the FRONT of Yoshi's bair. I have a good sense of where Yoshi's "centre" (i.e. the location of his "x" position) is, and so I position him so that my opponent is the opposite side of that centre from Yoshi's feet. The bair hitbox extends over Yoshi's centre, and so when I hit the other character, they fly forwards instead of backwards... but they don't go as far as they would have if I'd hit them with Yoshi's feet. (That has to do with the damage and power of a move decreasing over time-- Yoshi's bair hitbox crosses his horizontal centre a number of frames into the animation, when the move has grown weaker. It's also possible to bair before you're close enough to the opponent to hit them, and have your momentum carry you into them so that they're hit with the end frames of the bair attack hitbox. Anyways...) So this is great for comboing, because Yoshi's fair is a spike and his nair takes too long to recover from. Depending on the other guy's damage, I can get in 2 bairs, and still not have sent him too far to hit him a third time (with fair or nair, probably). Yoshi is a perfect character to try this with, because his utilts are the perfect setup. Just toss someone above your head, short hop, and position yourself so that they are very close in front of you. Then bair, and if you've timed/positioned it right, they'll be hit lightly forwards. Then you can double jump after them, and do it again. At this point, you've used up your double jump, so R-cancel it, dash forwards, and usmash/dsmash/short hop nair/egg/whatever. (ftilt is actually pretty good for the third hit, because it pops them up in front of you-- perfect for a fair off the edge.)

There's videos of Falcon and Kirby combos which use this "hit them with a bair forwards" idea to make longer-than-usual combos. Ant-d has one video of a physically impossible Falcon combo using it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and that "direction value" for attacks? Jiggly's Pound obviously has a negative direction value, which sends people backwards when she hits them with it. But the same rules about her x-coordinate apply, so you can also hit them with the BACK of her Pound hitbox, sending them forwards.

Uhhhhh... k. I'm done. Good luck.

I'm always using those weird hitboxes when I'm playing Fox . you'll see me often hitting my opponent with the front of his bair or with the back of his fair , what I like the most is that the knockback is slightly weakened , leaving my opponent open for another hit :D

kirby stall is win -_______________-

Yes, the Up b has some ridcously priority. When i used against my boss kirby, he rans up, and start ONLY stalling me, when i comboed him two times to deatch ._.

I'm sick of it, so i leave the clan -.-u

And the shots has also a diferents value for priority, but in mot of cases, except greens greens, stall is WIN. ._.

Kirby stall is win against Samus

 

[mooseproduce]

"I'm always using those weird hitboxes when I'm playing Fox."

Fox's body hitboxes are the CHEAPEST CRAP IN THE WORLD. Me and the 2 guys I play with (but mostly me because I <3 Johns) always yell "FOX BUG" when he mysteriously remains untouched by various moves. "Fox bug" applies mostly to grabs, where you and Fox can be standing RIGHT IN FRONT of each other, face to face, and not moving, and you grab him, and it's like Yosho parried it or something-- except without the parry. It's more like it passes through fox. Sometimes it happens the other way around, and Fox's grab passes through someone... but more often than not, it's the fuzzball who gets the good end of the deal.

Christ, I hate Fox.

 

[Thino]

Fox's grab range is weird , I notice it when i try grabbing out of a dash. It seems disjointed. but your first statement never happened to me , I never missed grabbing a Fox , sounds weird too

 

[ant-d]

The game is a lot to do with priority.