Stale Move Negation with Sheik

[Conet]

Hello everyone,

After watching the CFive's video on stale moves, I started to wonder what the applications could be with Sheik. Keeping Up-Air fresh is vital to her killing potential, so I see this as relevant. I think needles are a good move to add to the stale que, but I still am wondering if shooting the needles in charges acts as separate entities. Nonetheless, I feel that harassing with needles at high percents while keeping stage control actually benefits our ability to kill directly. The Balloons on Town and City, and Smashville as well as the Ducks on Duck Hunt should always be hit with Dair or Bair (rarely does this move kill, and if it is stale can better hit confirm into bouncing fish) to occupy spaces in the que.

If you have any further information or ideas, feel free to discuss.

 

[HoSmash4]

Just varying your moveset and not resorting to one combo followup will help with staling but i think dont think staling is that signficant in Smash 4 as it was in brawl.

 

[{Kyro}]

The 9-move queue means that early on, moves like uair and usmash can be used for damage, but later on it is best to save them for kills. It is worth noting that the farther down the move is in the queue, the less of an effect staling will have. In addition, at higher %s Sheik's kill confirm throws should be used more so that they can combo more reliably at kill %s.

 

[Joaco]

If you have a lot of time (like when you kill) throw a grenade at ducks/balloons. It doesn't stale itself but it does refresh your other moves.

 

[HoSmash4]

The 9-move queue means that early on, moves like uair and usmash can be used for damage, but later on it is best to save them for kills. It is worth noting that the farther down the move is in the queue, the less of an effect staling will have. In addition, at higher %s Sheik's kill confirm throws should be used more so that they can combo more reliably at kill %s.

Staling throws means throws have less hitstun but the recovery frames on the throw stay the same so it actually makes it worse lthough I understand the logic behind it.

 

[{Kyro}]

Staling throws means throws have less hitstun but the recovery frames on the throw stay the same so it actually makes it worse lthough I understand the logic behind it.

This relates to exactly how high the opponent's percentage is. If you're making the throw at a point when your opponent can safely jump out of or otherwise avoid the instant uair without airdodging, it's better to stale it so that the throw is actually a 50/50. It depends on when you expect to make the throw

 

[Absol]

The 9-move queue means that early on, moves like uair and usmash can be used for damage, but later on it is best to save them for kills. It is worth noting that the farther down the move is in the queue, the less of an effect staling will have. In addition, at higher %s Sheik's kill confirm throws should be used more so that they can combo more reliably at kill %s.

This actually isn't true. The throw will do less damage there for giving the opponent less hitstun. If you have 3 or 4 dthrows in your cache kiss your kill set up goodbye.

The damage that you do to an opponent does not profit in your favor with damage vs staling.

Sm4sh cache system isnt history from what I've tested, its tally based. It's not how early, but how many times its been used in your history. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. With edivence preferably.

 

[{Kyro}]

This actually isn't true. The throw will do less damage there for giving the opponent less hitstun. If you have 3 or 4 dthrows in your cache kiss your kill set up goodbye.

Ok, I've used staling to revitalize kill setups but I guess that was because my opponent didn't jump out quickly enough

Sm4sh cache system isnt history from what I've tested, its tally based. It's not how early, but how many times its been used in your history. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. With edivence preferably.

According to the smash wiki this is incorrect. You can check this link for more info. I haven't tested that before, but I trust the wiki with that kind of data.

 

[Absol]

Ok, I've used staling to revitalize kill setups but I guess that was because my opponent didn't jump out quickly enough


According to the smash wiki this is incorrect. You can check this link for more info. I haven't tested that before, but I trust the wiki with that kind of data.

I don't trust anything from the wiki since it has a bunch of assumptions of it. I rather have a thread with solid data. The wiki is wrong a lot, especially for a young game. They still don't have the dtilt increase kb in sheiks patch notes.

I trust the smash wiki as much as I trust Zeros opinion.

 

[{Kyro}]

I trust the smash wiki as much as I trust Zeros opinion.

lol ok, I'll do some testing to see how accurate it is

 

[Absol]

It would be good information to have, so thanks.

 

[{Kyro}]

I just tested this and the wiki is correct. I'm not sure if their exact numerical values are accurate, but it is true that the later the move is in the queue, the less of an effect staleness has.

Here's a way to test it: enter a 3-player match with fox, bowser and any other character. Get the Bowser to 78%, then do a fully charged up smash. It kills. Then do the same thing, but this time hit the third player with an up smash first. It doesn't kill. Now the same thing, except you hit the third player with an up smash, then six or seven down tilts. It kills.

(EDIT) This is without DI or rage on Omega Battlefield

 

[Absol]

Alright, then it is for sure not a tally system like i originally thought.

That being the case when you mentioned staling the dthrow what history threshold did you have in mind? Because I know the damage output on dthrow is important for the hitstun to make it a true 50-50.

Now I'm confused if its the damage that makes the kb lower or if there is an actual second factor into it.

Basically if its only the damage then we have an issue where it becomes less hitstun, but less knockback. I would ASSUME that hitstun would be more important, but fall speed, weight, and other things we cant do calculus with mid match gets in the way.

If you said to originally stale it with one dthrow, I'm trying to piece down how you came to this conclusion that it would make it more accurate at later percents. What history threshold exaclty? 5-7? 3-5?

It's literally a damn stock market (no pun intended) currency transfer between hitstun and knockback, with rage sticking its nose in and ruining everything

Anyway, I don't expect you to put on a lab coat to answer all these questions. Knowing this is history based decay I will have to adjust a couple things in my documents. So thanks for that.

 

[{Kyro}]

If you said to originally stale it with one dthrow, I'm trying to piece down how you came to this conclusion that it would make it more accurate at later percents. What history threshold exaclty? 5-7? 3-5?

It's literally a damn stock market (no pun intended) currency transfer between hitstun and knockback, with rage sticking its nose in and ruining everything

Anyway, I don't expect you to put on a lab coat to answer all these questions. Knowing this is history based decay I will have to adjust a couple things in my documents. So thanks for that.

I think that what has to be tested now is whether the staling reduces knockback and hitstun at the same rate as percent, I.e., if a down throw has 200 knockback on some character at some %, and you increase the percent but stale the move so the overall knockback is the same, will the hitstun be the same in both cases as well?
(EDIT: same can be said for rage)

Labbing is my jam, I just usually don't have time to do it. I'll see what I can do on my own, but someone else will probably have to do most of it

Frame counting time!

 

[Jaxas]

This could actually be the most useful thing that needs labbing right now, because it heavily affects our most straightforward way to kill. This should probably be top priority for people to lab and figure out the specifics of; I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it (don't have anyone immediately available to help me test, though I might be able to BS it with just me) but I'll see if I can get to it later this week

 

[{Kyro}]

I just did some super rough testing and found that a stale move and the same move but fresh (percent changed so the knockback is approximately the same) have the same hitstun. Now someone has to disprove it (if they can't, then it's correct). The test wasn't the most accurate, so take the info with a footstool kill of salt. However, it is indicative of the fact that the hitstun change, if existent, is not very significant, so depending on the "trueness" of the setup it could still be useful. Again, there was no difference in hitstun in both cases, so it has to be tested whether this is universal.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I just did some super rough testing and found that a stale move and the same move but fresh (percent changed so the knockback is approximately the same) have the same hitstun. Now someone has to disprove it (if they can't, then it's correct). The test wasn't the most accurate, so take the info with a footstool kill of salt. However, it is indicative of the fact that the hitstun change, if existent, is not very significant, so depending on the "trueness" of the setup it could still be useful. Again, there was no difference in hitstun in both cases, so it has to be tested whether this is universal.

Now someone has to disprove it (if they can't, then it's correct).

Burden of proof, bro.

I don't know anything for certain on the matter, so I can't see either way, but it would be interesting to see some data.

 

[{Kyro}]

Burden of proof, bro.

I don't know anything for certain on the matter, so I can't see either way, but it would be interesting to see some data.

I'll do my best, but trying to measure knockback is a pain. I'm certain my frame counting is correct, but the knockback could have been just different enough for one to have an extra frame of hitstun. :/ I'll keep at it though

 

[Simikins]

Someone needs to make a thread with move staling data for sheik specifically.

All this discussion of theories hurts. Solid data is what we need, and it may take several of us to get what we need.

I suggest someone (probably K {Kyro} as he's been leading the charge) makes a template thread, so we can easily divide testing.

This thread we are currently discussing in is called stale move 'negation' with sheik, and so should be focusing on how to unstale moves, etc.

A data thread should be elsewhere imo.

K {Kyro} don't feel like you need to do it all, there are several willing testers around.

On the topic of testing, please help with this ( http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-boards-to-do-list.404004/ ) everyone, would really help all sheiks.

 

[Joaco]

I trust the smash wiki as much as I trust Zeros opinion.

If you trust everything that Zero says then Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu are top 2 and not Sheik, and Sheik got nerfed in 1.0.8 patch...

 

[{Kyro}]

If you trust everything that Zero says then Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu are top 2 and not Sheik, and Sheik got nerfed in 1.0.8 patch...

He was saying that Zero's opinion is generally inaccurate and comparing that to the wiki

 

[Absol]

He was saying that Zero's opinion is generally inaccurate and comparing that to the wiki

It's tru

 

[Joaco]

I know I was just taking the point further