Stages in Project M: Are We Using the Right Ones?

[LEGOF]

I'd like to see some other stages being added to the list. It offers more fun options to compensate for so many more characters being viable. That way things are more open to suit someone's matchup as a counterpick, and it allows for some awesome experimentation.

I don't want stage transformation stages though. Those can stay home.

 

[Overswarm]

The sheer amount of stages currently available make one ban failsafes not enough. With only one ban, Ivysaur cannot strike her worst stage (YS, because Randall ruins her tether) & still have to fight Icies on FD or GHZ (mostly flat as well). Two or three bans covers this problem more effectively.

Then Ivysaur is a bad character.

WTF makes Ivysaur so special that the stagelist has to allow her to ban every stage she sucks on?

 

[The Derrit]

Then Ivysaur is a bad character.

WTF makes Ivysaur so special that the stagelist has to allow her to ban every stage she sucks on?

Or, nearly every character has this problem. That example is indicative of most characters - there is a stage they simply should not play on, and alternatively another one (or two in some cases) that are going to put your character in a bad spot.

If you think his point was about how unfair this game is for Ivysaur you might want to go back and re-read his post.

 

[Overswarm]

Or, nearly every character has this problem. That example is indicative of most characters - there is a stage they simply should not play on, and alternatively another one (or two in some cases) that are going to put your character in a bad spot.

If you think his point was about how unfair this game is for Ivysaur you might want to go back and re-read his post.

"Not being able to play optimally" is not the same as a "bad stage".

If Ivysaur shouldn't play on Yoshi's, ICs shouldn't play on any stage other than FD.

 

[Guilu]

Bans have always been used to ensure that counterpick advantage is not overwhelming, not just to avoid broken stuff.

 

[Overswarm]

Bans have always been used to ensure that counterpick advantage is not overwhelming, not just to avoid broken stuff.

Bans were used to stop individual characters from having an advantage in particular matchups. It was a preferential thing centering around the fact that you shouldn't have to pick a certain character.

Marth vs. Falcon might show that Yoshi's Island is the best Marth stage and Final Destination is the best Captain Falcon stage for that matchup. This is a preference ban because it's not an overwhelming disadvantage to either player and its dependent on character choice. No one forces you to pick captain falcon; if he sucks on Yoshi's Island and Fountain of Dreams against Marth it doesn't mean he should have two bans.... it means he has a disadvantage because he's not as good a character.

If it turned out that Yoshi's Island is the best Marth stage for every matchup or it was near impossible or heavily favored for one or the other (like Fox in Hyrule Temple) regardless of opponent, this would be considered a balance ban. It is incredibly rare that a balance ban is left in the game, the most notable exception being Ice Climbers and FD. They had the option of "deal with it, ban ICs, or ban FD" and they chose to deal with it.

This is why Melee lost stages like Pokefloats, Rumble Falls, Kongo Jungle 64, etc.; it was to a point where Fox players got good enough that virtually everyone had to switch to Fox to play on the CPs because even if your character could play Pokefloats, it couldn't play Mute City or Kongo Jungle 64. Individually everything was fine, but in practice the preferential ban didn't do enough to allow all of these stages to exist in tournament; if you banned one, there were at least two more that would hurt your character vs. your opponent's choice.


To put it in perspective, project M has like 6 or 7 stages that are the exact same. Flat with 3 platforms. Imagine there was a character that excelled in that environment. What would you do? You'd have to ban that character, ban a lot of stages, or just accept it. It's a tough call.

Unfortunately adding multiple bans isn't an answer because it clogs up other systems. It makes "having CP stages" irrelevant because you have to have four of them to even pick one... which means characters who excel in the most common stage to be "the best".

 

[hotdogturtle]

Solution to TOs taking the lazy "row position" approach for legalizing stages: Instead of rows, lay out all the stage icons in a big circle, with the stage preview image in the middle of the circle.

PMBR hire me plz

 

[NFTsmasher]

I would say lazy TOs are more susceptible to just going by Apex rules or another popular tournament because that is what they think is most popular competitively instead of experimenting with anything new. The row position is a part of that coincidentally, but not a primary concern.

 

[Guilu]

To put it in perspective, project M has like 6 or 7 stages that are the exact same. Flat with 3 platforms. Imagine there was a character that excelled in that environment. What would you do? You'd have to ban that character, ban a lot of stages, or just accept it. It's a tough call.

Unfortunately adding multiple bans isn't an answer because it clogs up other systems. It makes "having CP stages" irrelevant because you have to have four of them to even pick one... which means characters who excel in the most common stage to be "the best".

So Battlefield, Dreamland and FoD are the exact same ? They certainly have never been to me. What are the other three ? Skyworld, Lylat and Yoshi's Story ? You're stretching exactitude a little far, not to mention the "flat" part. The rest don't have three platforms so if it's not those six, you're talking about illegal stages. Stages in Project M are different enough for the most part, and awareness of the issues that redundancy in the stage list poses is spreading.

Even in Melee some characters often have an advantage or disadvantage in more than two stages, so I don't see why you make the distinction between "balance" and "preference" bans. Both serve to mitigate counterpick advantage, and in order to achieve similar levels of mitigation that we had with one ban on a six-stage list, we have two to three bans on a 12-to-15-stage list. You might argue about the exact numbers, but frankly I don't see the issue with the general principle here.

 

[Guilu]

EDIT : double post, sorry

 

[Aidoony]

there is room for more

 

[ThePhoenixDown]

My pm wont ban stages , can someone help me out here