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Stages are done a little unprofessionally?

CalvinWars

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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138
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I personally find the N64 stages fine, but what really annoys me are the Splashes on the Forest and Water Areas on Pokemon Stadium 1. When you land or wavedash on the stream in Forest, the splash made is huge; the shockwave is higher than the actual stream, extend farther than the stream, and much too large for a splash from such a small stream. In the Water Area, the splash is again too large and, if done near the ends of the water, the shockwave will extend into the covered areas. It really stands out to me.
 

Chzrm3

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Let me rephrase that.

Saying "we" implies that absolutely every P:M player agrees with your exact definition of what's "professional" and what isn't

Dude, no it doesn't. XD You asked him what people like him thought about it, and he responded with a plural. That's basic English.

"Why does your family eat at Mcdonalds?"

"Because we like it."

"What are you saying? I don't like Mcdonalds! Don't use 'we'! I'm not part of this!"

That's you.
 

Rizner

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FL -> AZ -> OH
The only thing I don't like is that there is an un-techable windmill on ps1. I'm fine with it not being there at all or being there fully, but I try to tech against it our jump on it way too often.
 

The_Altrox

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I felt that they sterilized some stages a bit too much. Lylat Cruise being one. The fact that it doesn't tilt really, really bugs me. Why?
1. It was something unique.
2. It wasn't game breaking (as far as I'm aware). It wasn't in vBrawl at least.
3. It was a great place to counter projectile users because it would throw off their game slightly.

Admittedly, I haven't been to Smashboards in awhile, so I would like to see their justification on this. Otherwise, I feel like the people working on this are making too many battlefield clone stages (I know they aren't technically clones, given differences in platform location, but you know what I mean.) Norfair could have been nerfed, but having at least the lava hazard (like in Brinstar) could have been cool for a counter pick level. Also, Wario Ware could have been a good counter pick if they toned down the minigames (knockback and damage wise) and made it so that the only prize you could get for doing well was a 5% health gift. Take away the mushroom and invincibility prize and it's not nearly as bad... maybe. As somebody who isn't a programmer, I'm sure it's easier said than done.
I like this game, but I feel like they watered it down in a few places.
 

GHNeko

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In the case of Warioware, the rewards of the minigames weren't the only problem. It was the minigames themselves. A general theme of banned stages is that they change the match from player v player into player v player v stage, and that's something that the community as a whole tries to avoid.

With the minigames, you're forced to interact (essentially, fight) with the stage more than you are with the player. That sort of gameplay is not really advocated.

This line of thought is also applied to some other hazard based stages as well which can help you gain some potential insight into why some stages are normalized.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2
 

Viceversa96

Banned via Warnings
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Jun 18, 2012
Messages
413
Yeah! That stage was amazing.

I also really miss Samus's N64 stage. The acid/lava mechanic has been used in several other levels, but for whatever reason, none of them are nearly as fun as that original one.
I used to use the lava in that stage for combos lol.
 

SpiderMad

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Take out Lylat cruise with its sickening background, and bring back a balanced Luigi's Mansion
 

GP&B

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I've heard a lot of complaints about LC's background being really off-putting for players. I'm interested in finding a way to either make it static or way less frantic.

And I don't personally hate the tilt, I hate how god damn thick the ledges are. It's Brawl FD all over again with those stupid things.
 

The_Altrox

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In the case of Warioware, the rewards of the minigames weren't the only problem. It was the minigames themselves. A general theme of banned stages is that they change the match from player v player into player v player v stage, and that's something that the community as a whole tries to avoid.

With the minigames, you're forced to interact (essentially, fight) with the stage more than you are with the player. That sort of gameplay is not really advocated.

This line of thought is also applied to some other hazard based stages as well which can help you gain some potential insight into why some stages are normalized.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2
Fair enough, but what about Halberd? Isn't it still in P:M, minus the claw? Maybe people ban if from tourney play (I honestly don't know), but even in vBrawl, the hazards were incredibly manageable, and they didn't really take away from the player vs. player action. It was a nice counterpick, and personally, my favorite counterpick stage.

As for Warioware, I see what you mean about having to fight the stage. While Halberd is extremely predictable, Wario Ware is a bit crazy. But let's assume that the hackers could assume full creative control of the stage and did the following things:
- Reduce the frequency of minigames (down to one game a minute or so)
- Nerf the games so that the damage/knockback is weaker. If there's a game that's completely broken, throw it out.
- Games with variety in what happens are made predictable (such as the car that hits players only follows one path, rather than trying to screw with people)
- Losers of minigames are not penalized. Winners gain a small health gift (which given how fast people rack up damage, that's pretty meager, and not as broken as a mega mushroom or invincibility.)

You could create a situation in which the games are more predictable and the consequences are minimal. The games can be played, but they can also be ignored. It could potentially be a counterpick stage in that regard.

Of course, I'm admittedly biased, given that Warioware is my favorite banned stage ever along with Norfair. But as for Norfair, why not leave a lava hazard in like in Brinstar, which is relatively loved as a counterpick? I would take out the lava wave and the spit fire and keep the rising lava (which is a lot like Brinstar) and maybe even the lava wall, though that could be an issue.

I just feel that these stages had a lot of personality that was stripped from them, just to create battlefield-esque clones. I mean, if old Norfair and Warioware are eventually readded on their own in addition to these new stages, that's awesome, but I feel like these stages could have been modded into counterpicks.
I feel the same way about Pokemon Stadium 2. I feel that some of the hazards (like the conyer belts) could have been toned. I mean, nothing wrong with the stage as it is now, but...

Also, what about Lylat Cruise losing its tilt? Is there a legit reason for this other than petty dislike of an added feature? Because honestly, I never saw it as being some gamebreaking feature (unless I'm missing something, which is possible, given my absence in general) but it seems like another example of taking a stage and stripping it of its uniqueness. Except this time, the stage was pretty balanced to begin with, especially compared to a lot of counterpick stages in vBrawl.

EDIT: I never got the background complaints. It never bothered me because I've always been more focused on the foreground and I never noticed it much. I liked it too. Made everything look exciting.
I get the ledge complaint though, but I don't think it's terrible.
 

MetalMan

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I've heard a lot of complaints about LC's background being really off-putting for players. I'm interested in finding a way to either make it static or way less frantic.

And I don't personally hate the tilt, I hate how god damn thick the ledges are. It's Brawl FD all over again with those stupid things.

THIS

Id love for it to tilt again but that background just doesnt let me play it. Its very active and lasery(beautiful though).
 

F. Blue

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Hey, fun-loving casual empathizing alter-ego here. I feel slighted that some of my favorite frenetic stages are gone, but bring back Warioware and I'll call it even.

Hell even Team Fortress 2 has Warioware mode, and what's more competitively geared than that?
 

EdgeTheLucas

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I know it's been years since its inception but I'm really bothered by Dracula's Castle as Castlevania isn't in Smash at all. I miss Luigi's Mansion, and I'd like it to return but without the breakable pillars and other things to make it balanced, but I know I'd have to hack it back in myself if I really want it.

I thought of something right now that would allow us to keep both Dracula's Castle and Luigi's Mansion. You know how Metal Cavern still uses Mushroomy Kingdom's slot (hell, going to the My Music option for that stage still uses the pictures for the 1-1 and 1-2 versions)? I don't know if this means Metal Cavern is actually the same stage twice in the same slot, but if it is then I think it should instead overwrite Dracula's Castle's current slot. All of that stage's current data and graphics and whatnot could overwrite the MK 1-1 space of Metal Cavern's current slot, while a balanced Luigi's Mansion could be implemented in the MK 1-2 section. That way we keep Dracula's Castle while bringing back an old favorite.

Is this confusing to anyone? I can clarify tomorrow after 3:00 as that's when I'll be home after class :p
 

MonkUnit

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MK 1-1 and 1-2 are chosen at random. Metal Cavern are put over both. If you did what you suggested, you'd have a random chance of getting LM or DC.
 

Phaiyte

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If you want Lylat Cruise to tilt again, all you have to do is delete the Lylat Cruise files from your SD card. I personally hated the tilt though, and I'll be leaving it as is. My only qualm with it currently is that I wish the platforms were a little higher and the background either a little darker or not there at all; preferably something like flying through meteor belt in Starfox 64.
 

GHNeko

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Fair enough, but what about Halberd? Isn't it still in P:M, minus the claw? Maybe people ban if from tourney play (I honestly don't know), but even in vBrawl, the hazards were incredibly manageable, and they didn't really take away from the player vs. player action. It was a nice counterpick, and personally, my favorite counterpick stage.
What about Halberd? Yes, it's still in P:M. Page 1 actually. The stage is super predictable as are the hazards. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

As for Warioware, I see what you mean about having to fight the stage. While Halberd is extremely predictable, Wario Ware is a bit crazy. But let's assume that the hackers could assume full creative control of the stage and did the following things:
- Reduce the frequency of minigames (down to one game a minute or so)
- Nerf the games so that the damage/knockback is weaker. If there's a game that's completely broken, throw it out.
- Games with variety in what happens are made predictable (such as the car that hits players only follows one path, rather than trying to screw with people)
- Losers of minigames are not penalized. Winners gain a small health gift (which given how fast people rack up damage, that's pretty meager, and not as broken as a mega mushroom or invincibility.)

You could create a situation in which the games are more predictable and the consequences are minimal. The games can be played, but they can also be ignored. It could potentially be a counterpick stage in that regard.
Well if we had the ability to, maybe we would. I'm not sure if we're capable, but at this point I think this stage is more preferred by the competitive crowd as is. I don't know, anything is subject to change Haha.


Of course, I'm admittedly biased, given that Warioware is my favorite banned stage ever along with Norfair. But as for Norfair, why not leave a lava hazard in like in Brinstar, which is relatively loved as a counterpick? I would take out the lava wave and the spit fire and keep the rising lava (which is a lot like Brinstar) and maybe even the lava wall, though that could be an issue.
Don't quote me, but I think we couldnt get full control over the hazards of Norfair, so we opted to remove it.

But again, I'm not sure. So anyone who works on the stages is free to correct me.

I just feel that these stages had a lot of personality that was stripped from them, just to create battlefield-esque clones. I mean, if old Norfair and Warioware are eventually readded on their own in addition to these new stages, that's awesome, but I feel like these stages could have been modded into counterpicks.
I feel the same way about Pokemon Stadium 2. I feel that some of the hazards (like the conyer belts) could have been toned. I mean, nothing wrong with the stage as it is now, but...
Well I disagree about various stages being BF-esque clones because despite these stages losing the frantic attributes that were casual friendly and tournament not, they all hold nuances in platform layout and stage size that create distinct feels that matter in the long run. But that's my opinion.

Also, what about Lylat Cruise losing its tilt? Is there a legit reason for this other than petty dislike of an added feature? Because honestly, I never saw it as being some gamebreaking feature (unless I'm missing something, which is possible, given my absence in general) but it seems like another example of taking a stage and stripping it of its uniqueness. Except this time, the stage was pretty balanced to begin with, especially compared to a lot of counterpick stages in vBrawl.
I know there was an answer for this, but it's escaping me for some reason. lol.
 

The_Altrox

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If you want Lylat Cruise to tilt again, all you have to do is delete the Lylat Cruise files from your SD card. I personally hated the tilt though, and I'll be leaving it as is. My only qualm with it currently is that I wish the platforms were a little higher and the background either a little darker or not there at all; preferably something like flying through meteor belt in Starfox 64.
Oh, I get that it's pretty easy to switch it back. That's not really the point. If non-tilting is a tourney standard, I want to know why, especially if I ever decided I wanted to get involved again. As far as mechanics go, the tilting was hardly game breaking. It gave the stage something unique that could be turned into an advantage (for me, the tilt was a good thing to use against certain projectile characters, since it could throw off their game.) It was a counterpick for me, but it wasn't crazy and unpredictable. I just don't see why for a game like this, it was considered so bad that it had to get removed, while Halberd still sports hazards (which for the record, I don't think were bad either.)

What I want to know is why it was removed. What made it so disliked and so bad that it was worth removing to make another generic platform stage, while at the same time, taking away a unique aspect that wasn't all that game breaking and could be used strategically?

EDIT:
Well I disagree about various stages being BF-esque clones because despite these stages losing the frantic attributes that were casual friendly and tournament not, they all hold nuances in platform layout and stage size that create distinct feels that matter in the long run. But that's my opinion
I get that there are nuances. There are reasons as to why I would choose Smashville over FD and Battlefield over Fountain of Dreams. That's why I added "esque" to the end of the word. But I wouldn't say that adding a "frantic" attribute necessarily makes something not tournament friendly. Granted, vanilla Norfair is a bit too frantic, but then you have Halberd, which was a good counterpick stage, given how tame and predictable it is. Even with nerfed hazards on PS2, I wouldn't suggest it to be a Neutral stage (we have quite a few of those already.) That's why for the sake of PS2, I feel like it could have been nerfed to be a counterpick that was far less annoying than it was in vBrawl. Then, it keeps elements that made it what it was, and can be useful as a counter pick, but it won't be completely stupid with the frantic things being too much (this assuming that it could be programmed.)
 

Cubelarooso

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Liked Brawl's concept of WarioWare, absolutely hated the execution. But I also love the layout as a static stage.

I liked vNorfair's platform layout when it wasn't abused for camping, but I really love Norfair:M. Most of the lava was pretty stupid, and the rising-damaging-liquid is trite at this point, but I liked the wall-of-damage and think it'd be cool on a stage; it's something new and interesting, which doesn't so much impose itself as it is utilized by the players, just as more basic stage elements like platforms, ledges, and blastzones.

I feel the same way way about Distant Planet's pellets and leaves-that-respond-to-weight. I also really liked the aesthetic, and don't think a bland stage like SSE:K fits. I'm always hoping there'll be a fixed DP included eventually.

I like Luigi's Mansion layout and love the aesthetic, and even think something competitive might could be made out of the projectile-blocking-pillars.

PS2's transformations also have potential if the stupid parts were removed, by which I mean make the conveyor belts run inwards and the Flying part not do that thing. The decreased friction on Ice seems tame enough, and I'd like to try it with WD'ing.

Also I feel like I'm the only one in the world who liked anything, let alone nearly everything, about Hanenbow.

I'm with everyone else that gets distacted/nauseated on Lylat. I'd agree about the tilting if it weren't too miniscule to be notable yet too disruptive to be negligible, and if the ledges and background didn't make it unplayable anyway. And I just remembered it's on Castle Siege and works well there.

Basically I guess the epitome of this post is that I like nontraditional stage elements that act not as hazards, but as extra tools only as important as the one who manages to wield them makes them. I think. It's kinda late for me.

Regarding actually being on-topic, I suppose I'd just consider DC and SSE:J well within reasonable bounds of professionalalitiness, but still relatively "mod"-y, and despite the arguments provided, that's not just because I like what the replaced stages could've been. Also I've come to think PS2's name, and have always thought GHZ's edges, could use some polish. Pictochat the instantly-exploding-missiles on Pictochat could be touched up. Maybe the fact that Sonic gets a good stage but Metal Gear doesn't? I think that's it, barring unprofessional aspects from Brawl, of which I'd say there are more.
 

Phaiyte

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Oh, I get that it's pretty easy to switch it back. That's not really the point. If non-tilting is a tourney standard, I want to know why, especially if I ever decided I wanted to get involved again. As far as mechanics go, the tilting was hardly game breaking. It gave the stage something unique that could be turned into an advantage (for me, the tilt was a good thing to use against certain projectile characters, since it could throw off their game.) It was a counterpick for me, but it wasn't crazy and unpredictable. I just don't see why for a game like this, it was considered so bad that it had to get removed, while Halberd still sports hazards (which for the record, I don't think were bad either.)

What I want to know is why it was removed. What made it so disliked and so bad that it was worth removing to make another generic platform stage, while at the same time, taking away a unique aspect that wasn't all that game breaking and could be used strategically?

EDIT:


I get that there are nuances. There are reasons as to why I would choose Smashville over FD and Battlefield over Fountain of Dreams. That's why I added "esque" to the end of the word. But I wouldn't say that adding a "frantic" attribute necessarily makes something not tournament friendly. Granted, vanilla Norfair is a bit too frantic, but then you have Halberd, which was a good counterpick stage, given how tame and predictable it is. Even with nerfed hazards on PS2, I wouldn't suggest it to be a Neutral stage (we have quite a few of those already.) That's why for the sake of PS2, I feel like it could have been nerfed to be a counterpick that was far less annoying than it was in vBrawl. Then, it keeps elements that made it what it was, and can be useful as a counter pick, but it won't be completely stupid with the frantic things being too much (this assuming that it could be programmed.)

Because the stage tilting up while you're trying to recover and it causes you to miss is ****ing stupid.
 

The_Altrox

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Because the stage tilting up while you're trying to recover and it causes you to miss is ****ing stupid.
Never found it to be that detrimental. I find it easy to adjust with the stage (It's not that extreme. It moves predictably enough.)
However, getting stuck under the stage is a thing, but I would usually attribute that to my own mistakes or another player knocking me there.
 

Phaiyte

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Never found it to be that detrimental. I find it easy to adjust with the stage (It's not that extreme. It moves predictably enough.)
However, getting stuck under the stage is a thing, but I would usually attribute that to my own mistakes or another player knocking me there.
I can't tell you enough how many times I've seen things that were definitely the stage's fault.

On another topic though, I still really want the WiFi Waiting Room. Using the sandbag to block projectiles and force approaches is p sweet.
 

The_Altrox

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But Lylat's fault? The stage is entirely predictable. It's not like vanilla Warioware where you get hit with random games with random frequency that will sometimes try to screw with you. Hell, even Halberd, while incredibly manageable, plays slightly differently each time with its hazards (I mean, there's a laser cannon that chases you. It's easy to avoid, but it's still actively trying to get you.
Vanilla Lylat follows a set path every time and the tilt follows a predictable pattern. It is not the stages fault if the player is unable to recover for not knowing the stage well enough. If you get knocked under the stage by your opponent or you perform an action incorrectly, getting yourself screwed under the stage, that's not the stage's fault.

EDIT: Stole this from the stage legality section.

"Lylat, similar to Yoshi's, gives slight characters advantages, due to its design, but none that are strong enough to affect this stage's skill ceiling. Lylat's random transformations (which indicate the direction it will tilt) can interfere with results. These random incidents are more or less isolated and their influence on the game is avoidable if both players are playing properly, allowing it to still foster competition as a competitive stage."

While there is a bit of randomness in that regard, I would agree that it is something that can be avoided if you know the stage and understand it's movement.
 

Fortress

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Make Temple larger, it's all I want.

I've heard a lot of complaints about LC's background being really off-putting for players. I'm interested in finding a way to either make it static or way less frantic.

And I don't personally hate the tilt, I hate how god damn thick the ledges are. It's Brawl FD all over again with those stupid things.
Lylat's goddamned awful. The background is distracting as sin, and the stage tilt is as annoying as it can possibly be when I'm trying to tether with Link, or extreme speed onto the stage as Lucario. Ugh. Lylat remains one of my least favorite stages of the ones present in P:M.

As for other stages, do what people did with, say, Orpheon and Port Town; make the stage not ****ing flip turn upside-down, and make ledges certain ledges grabable like the balanced remake of Port Town. Also, nerf the cars, or just remove them. Christ, it's like the platforms don't even cover you from them. I just have to bend over and take seventy-five damage each time I hear the racer alarm.
 

Phaiyte

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But Lylat's fault? The stage is entirely predictable. It's not like vanilla Warioware where you get hit with random games with random frequency that will sometimes try to screw with you. Hell, even Halberd, while incredibly manageable, plays slightly differently each time with its hazards (I mean, there's a laser cannon that chases you. It's easy to avoid, but it's still actively trying to get you.
Vanilla Lylat follows a set path every time and the tilt follows a predictable pattern. It is not the stages fault if the player is unable to recover for not knowing the stage well enough. If you get knocked under the stage by your opponent or you perform an action incorrectly, getting yourself screwed under the stage, that's not the stage's fault.

It doesn't have anything to do with knowing the stage. It's like those moments when you're trying to recover on a normal stage where you get edgegaurded by the opponent as he wavedashes backwards and utilizes the invincibility frames at just the right time so you can't grab the ledge or hurt him. You watch your character fall even though you knew for a fact that if the opponent wasn't there you'd have made it. Only in Lylat's case, it's not the opponent, it's the stage doing it for you.
 

Fortress

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It doesn't have anything to do with knowing the stage. It's like those moments when you're trying to recover on a normal stage where you get edgegaurded by the opponent as he wavedashes backwards and utilizes the invincibility frames at just the right time so you can't grab the ledge or hurt him. You watch your character fall even though you knew for a fact that if the opponent wasn't there you'd have made it. Only in Lylat's case, it's not the opponent, it's the stage doing it for you.
Yup. Lylat's a ****ing prick. Just make it not tilt, and give it the old N64 Sector Z background or something.

Seriously.
 

The_Altrox

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Wait, you lost me there. Is this about edge guarding, wave dashes, the stage, or all of the above? If there is an issue involving those mechanics and the stage, I can understand modifications. But if not, I can say from personal experience that after playing the stage long enough in vBrawl and other brawl hacks, I never had a problem with recovery that didn't involve my own error or the influence of my opponent. Maybe I've been lucky so far. I don't know.
 

Fortress

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Wait, you lost me there. Is this about edge guarding, wave dashes, the stage, or all of the above? If there is an issue involving those mechanics and the stage, I can understand modifications. But if not, I can say from personal experience that after playing the stage long enough in vBrawl and other brawl hacks, I never had a problem with recovery that didn't involve my own error or the influence of my opponent. Maybe I've been lucky so far. I don't know.
It's about Lylat Cruise, the stage, ******* all of us.

"Oh, hey der, Link, see you're tryin' to come back wit' dem fancy slippy-slidy glidy-tossy whatchacallits. Would be a shame if I sliiiiiiiiiiiightly tilted upwards..."

"AAAAAAAAAAARGH"

EDIT: This dickish ****ery happens at embarrassingly-low percents. Lylat Cruise is out to get you. Just like Orpheon is.
 

Phaiyte

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It was a comparison to how stupid the stage is and how much easier it is to get a kill there. The above example is just one of those things you don't have to do because the stage does it for you, and then you can do it anyway to further increase that kill potential.
 

The_Altrox

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Hmm... I'd argue for vLylat to be a counterpick at least then, but I figure that that's not going to happen. Might as well find my serenity then.
 

GP&B

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I think the hate in P:M for the stage probably comes more from how much weaker recovery is in general compared to Brawl. Sweetspotting requires precision and with some characters, a tilt is all it takes to turn a safe sweetspot into a total disaster.
 

Fortress

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I think the hate in P:M for the stage probably comes more from how much weaker recovery is in general compared to Brawl. Sweetspotting requires precision and with some characters, a tilt is all it takes to turn a safe sweetspot into a total disaster.
No, Lylat's just an asshole, through-and-through. The ever-so-slightly tilting thing it has going for it drives me insane.
 

MetalMan

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Regarding Lylat, I could see them leaving it static and placing Sector Z's Background or even Corneria, just something less seizure inducing
 

GHNeko

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GHNeko
I feel like I'm the only one who isnt distracted by Lylat's background lol.

But then again, I play stepmania/ddr with movies enabled, so i guess I learned to block out distracting backgrounds lmao
 

Phaiyte

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
932
I feel like I'm the only one who isnt distracted by Lylat's background lol.

But then again, I play stepmania/ddr with movies enabled, so i guess I learned to block out distracting backgrounds lmao
Play ITG like a real man
 
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