Stage Legality Speculations

[Hong]

Walkoffs for days.

Is it because we have Bandai Namco on board and the concept of ledge dynamics eludes them? Surely this cannot be the case. They are veterans in the industry and are at times pioneers of many of the things we consider standard. For the most part it is looking like more walkoffs will be on the 3DS version, where the product can at least afford to focus the camera on the character that user specifically controls.

I'll agree to the notion that we don't yet know what walkoffs are going to be like. If only instead of having these ambiguous bubbles pop up near us as we get near the edge, the game can just pan/expand the camera, and graphically indicate the stage boundaries. Not saying that will make walkoffs legal, but it certainly addresses a number of concerns.

 

[Sahfarry]

Or they're not making as many competitive stages because the FD mode exists. Makes more sense then Namco being stupid.

IMO that's still them being stupid, seeing as FD mode is really shallow at this point. Hopefully they change either the FD more, or the stages they include.

sidenote: is balloon fight walkoff?

 

[Dairz]

sidenote: is balloon fight walkoff?

Sorta. When you go off the sides, you appear on the other side of the stage.

 

[Hong]

sidenote: is balloon fight walkoff?

There is world-wrapping properties. I have one of two assumptions on how this works:

a) Being launched near the edges results in a KO. This included even grounded launches, like King Dedede or Wolf's down throws. Voluntary movement allows you to wrap around the world unhindered. This is the most likely outcome.

b) KOs only occur vertically. This has a number of nasty implications that make it seem unlikely.

 

[WritersBlah]

sidenote: is balloon fight walkoff?

I have a separate thread for 3DS stage speculation linked in the first post. Please speculate those stages over there!

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I don't know. As the camera angle said, it might not be a ban, but even then for a stage THAT LARGE I think it could only work in doubles; maybe that's just me. Have we ever had a true big stage before as legal? (That's stayed legal)

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't know. As the camera angle said, it might not be a ban, but even then for a stage THAT LARGE I think it could only work in doubles; maybe that's just me. Have we ever had a true big stage before as legal? (That's stayed legal)

Stage Expert Here, the short answer is NO.

The long answer: Depends on your definition of large. In comparison to the picture, Hannenbow is honestly the closest in huge stages I can think of, which was legal in singles for an almost non existent amount of time in some places, and allowed as doubles only for a very short time in some places. Bridge of Eldin actually had some minor testing as well, the issue was even when two players didn't just stall or lob projectiles the game always went to time, which might be an issue. Ask me about any stage you might think is big enough to compare and I'll give you the goods on it.

Also, just because a stage is bigger doesn't make it a good idea for doubles. If it's broken in 1v1 you have to remember that sometimes matches become 1v1 in doubles, so it could just be abused anyways.

Or they're not making as many competitive stages because the FD mode exists. Makes more sense then Namco being stupid.

This is why i made my big thread about FD Only stuff, this could honestly be the case.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

that's the thing about this stage though - I feel it still has potential in doubles and it's not too big (though we'll see) but could lead to some problems in singles. *could*. It really depends on how projectiles work in this game but I don't know; these pictures can be misleading

Also I know what I'm talking about with stages too y'know

 

[allison]

The primary reason walk-offs were banned in past Smash games is this: Particular techniques performed by particular characters. Specifically, Fox's shinedashing in Melee and Dedede's chainthrowing in Brawl. Assuming that no such technique exists in Smash 4, walk-offs may just become legal. However, they may end up stymied by other factors anyway (like extremely reduced visibility when your character is offscreen).

 

[RelaxAlax]

The primary reason walk-offs were banned in past Smash games is this: Particular techniques performed by particular characters. Specifically, Fox's shinedashing in Melee and Dedede's chainthrowing in Brawl. Assuming that no such technique exists in Smash 4, walk-offs may just become legal. However, they may end up stymied by other factors anyway (like extremely reduced visibility when your character is offscreen).

As for the visibility thing, there are alot of times in comp Smash where users can't see. Such as, but not limited to, fighting under stages, near the blast zones, small characters with the foreground ( i thinkk?) hiding them (Olimar of Dreamland in PM), when pros are fighting at high percents and the character moves faster then the camera ( Melee this can be seen).

As for walkoffs being legal ... Mm, I like diversity but I fear tradition will play a role in their deciding factor. No doubt we will try and make them work, but if they show even the slightest unfavorably to the adopted comp playstyle fear they'll be blacklisted quickly. I'd be willing to give them a try but already feel the fate for them is in an unwritten coat of arms.

 

[ScottyWK]

The more legal walkoffs there are, the more Mac mains there will be. Walkoffs completely eliminate recovery as part of the game, rendering a lot of up-specials useless.

 

[RelaxAlax]

^ Basically this.


I only don't count them out because, frankly, I don't eliminate any possibility without solid evidence. But if we're gonna be real, you're right.. It's how our meta transformed. There could be a alternate universe where walk offs are the only legal stage and stages that aren't are bannned (idk, this universe wanted to stay true to traditional fighting games). In this universe, Dedede is SS tier and the rest of the tier this is changed up a bit. This is just a (unrealistic) hypothetical.

 

[LiteralGrill]

that's the thing about this stage though - I feel it still has potential in doubles and it's not too big (though we'll see) but could lead to some problems in singles. *could*. It really depends on how projectiles work in this game but I don't know; these pictures can be misleading

Also I know what I'm talking about with stages too y'know

Oh I wasn't trying to say you didn't know, I just wanted to be helpful if I could! I've read every single stage legality thread for Brawl, and quite a few for Melee. (I actually read every thread in the Brawl Competitive Forums... I have no life.)

 

[Empyrean]

(I actually read every thread in the Brawl Competitive Forums... I have no life.)

What are you talking about dude? Smash Bros IS life.

 

[Deleted member]

It would be great if a Battlefield mode/Hazardless mode was added to the Wii U version, even if they don't have time for it, I would support for a DLC/Patch after the release.
As for the 2 new stages, it seems the NSMBU stage has solid blocks and a crazy transformation, the only thing I'm concerned is the spiky monster, also, the water platforms will probably elevate and descend during the battle, coming with them the possibility of the spikies monsters
The Colosieum/Colosseum/whatever is probably permanent walk-off and very large stage
Btw, going to ask anyone who is going to the Smash-Fest at Best Buy to test some stages like Dr. Wily's Castle to see if the YD is chaotic; if NSMBU stage's blocks are indeed solid and if it's there, the Coliseum to see if it just starts like Prism Tower and gains some platforms

 

[LiteralGrill]

It would be great if a Battlefield mode/Hazardless mode was added to the Wii U version, even if they don't have time for it, I would support for a DLC/Patch after the release.

Sakurai has already said he wont be doing a hazards off mode.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai has already said he wont be doing a hazards off mode.

He also said Villager was too peaceful to be playable
But, seriously tho, if there was enough fan demand, maybe it could happen

 

[ryuu seika]

Something to think about:
If there wasn't road past the outside houses on Onett, would it be considered legal? Why/why not?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Something to think about:
If there wasn't road past the outside houses on Onett, would it be considered legal? Why/why not?

Good and bad choice of walkoff stage, the issues being there are still a bunch of walls in the forms of the buildings that caused issues, and though they are slightly messed with because of the cars it really isn't enough.

The thing most people don't think about are throws with set knock back on walkoffs, Ness on walkoffs is insane because of this. It's not just walkoff camping.

 

[Hong]

Something to think about:
If there wasn't road past the outside houses on Onett, would it be considered legal? Why/why not?

If not for the infinites walls present, it would be worth giving it a shot.

I'm a 64 player, so one thing I would point out is the lack of grabbable ledges on Peach's Castle. It really changes up the game quite a bit and I would love to experiment the legality of stages like that in the future.

 

[ryuu seika]

So neither of you believes that the cars would be enough to stop wall infinites running rampant?

As for Peach's Castle, I'm not entirely sure if grabbable ledges on the moving platform would feel right but, assuming it happened, would players drop off automatically when their side went fully in? I could see the pressure of that clock causing some interesting gameplay decisions.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So neither of you believes that the cars would be enough to stop wall infinites running rampant?

As for Peach's Castle, I'm not entirely sure if grabbable ledges on the moving platform would feel right but, assuming it happened, would players drop off automatically when their side went fully in? I could see the pressure of that clock causing some interesting gameplay decisions.

I've played MANY matches on that stages and studied the arguments behind it through the thousands of pages of old stage legality threads, the cars just aren't enough, the matches are still campy and annoying, something that kinda Norfair.

 

[LancerStaff]

Onett... Wasn't that legal somewhere?
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Onett
"The stage is banned in both Melee and Brawl, though it saw use as a counterpick in the former game. The reasons for banning are the same in both games; the walls allow for infinite combos, and the stage hazards of the cars can disrupt gameplay and easily allow for early kills (this problem is more prevalent in Melee). The lack of a lower blast line also removes the edge guarding component of characters; the low ceiling at the top of the stage and the walk-off blast lines also can allow for very easy and early KOs."
Don't the cars run on a set timer? IDK, I wouldn't mind playing with Brawl's nerfed cars and less wall infinites.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Onett... Wasn't that legal somewhere?
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Onett
"The stage is banned in both Melee and Brawl, though it saw use as a counterpick in the former game. The reasons for banning are the same in both games; the walls allow for infinite combos, and the stage hazards of the cars can disrupt gameplay and easily allow for early kills (this problem is more prevalent in Melee). The lack of a lower blast line also removes the edge guarding component of characters; the low ceiling at the top of the stage and the walk-off blast lines also can allow for very easy and early KOs."
Don't the cars run on a set timer? IDK, I wouldn't mind playing with Brawl's nerfed cars and less wall infinites.

The cars are sorta set yes, you can read for when the cars are coming and time your approach for during them, it still makes for very dull stalling matches. So it sorta falls more under the degenerate play quandary.

Also, don't trust smash wiki on stages ever. The info there is horribly out of date on a ton of stages and many times is honestly wrong.

 

[Hong]

So neither of you believes that the cars would be enough to stop wall infinites running rampant?

As for Peach's Castle, I'm not entirely sure if grabbable ledges on the moving platform would feel right but, assuming it happened, would players drop off automatically when their side went fully in? I could see the pressure of that clock causing some interesting gameplay decisions.

I don't mind the implications of the bottom side that moves.

Yeah. If you don't pay attention to your environment, the stage platform can tuck itself in while you are recovering and you could die.

I don't think that's bad at all. I still think the character balance is fair for at least a counterpick.

Edit - Just realized I didn't answer either of your questions.

1) No, I don't think cars are enough to offset wall infinites, but if the stage were really drastically changed as you suggested we would have to test it either way.
2) You can't grab the moving part of Peach's Castle 64.

 

[LiteralGrill]

We saw REAL gameplay on the stages and NO ONE IS POSTING IN THIS THREAD NOW!?!?!?!?!?!

Ehem...

Anyways, thoughts having now seen the stages? Pilot Wings I thought I saw had a little spot where you could get hit by a ceiling of some kind, which is interesting.

With a big hazard and abuse possibilities I doubt the Boxing Ring will see play.

The new FE stage will be a circle camping nightmare with Bridge Of Eldin proportions.

Skyloft looks like it might work, some of the transformations are questionable, but anywhere that has Delphino legal now is likely to have this stage be legal.

The new Mario stage has a LOT of issues, hazards, terrible layouts... It wont stay legal.

Your thoughts?

 

[mimgrim]

Boxing Ring is definitely banned. Way to big, the interactive hazard, and walk-offs.

The FE stage I wish could be legal, but it is big and walk-offs.

Willy's Castle isn't actually that bad. I could see it as a possible counter pick actually.

Town and City is of course fine, definitely starter material.

Skyloft seems mostly fine. Some of the transformations are a bit whacky, but no worse then Delfino.

Pilots Wings is a little weird. Somehow I kept on getting hurt by something while I was in the air, and it wasn't a player, it was like some kind of invisible hazard or something. But with how the stage works I could see counter pick or starter for it.

The Mario stage is a no.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Willy's Castle isn't actually that bad. I could see it as a possible counter pick actually.

I doubt anyone will accept the Yellow Devil in comp play, it's by far a strong pain in the butt hazard.

Pilots Wings is a little weird. Somehow I kept on getting hurt by something while I was in the air, and it wasn't a player, it was like some kind of invisible hazard or something. But with how the stage works I could see counter pick or starter for it.

THAT is interesting to an extreme. That could mean a lot for this stage.

 

[mimgrim]

I doubt anyone will accept the Yellow Devil in comp play, it's by far a strong pain in the butt hazard.

I dunno, he doesn't seem that bad. He seems rather easy to avoid for the most part, doesn't seem to have any real KO power aside from when he explodes and that initself is harder then you would think to accomplish.

I could see it as a counterpick, but banned is more likely.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I dunno, he doesn't seem that bad. He seems rather easy to avoid for the most part, doesn't seem to have any real KO power aside from when he explodes and that initself is harder then you would think to accomplish.

I could see it as a counterpick, but banned is more likely.

It probably does depend on how open we are I agree.

 

[Ingulit]

I am 100% sure this has been mentioned already, but you need to factor the effect walls will have on a stage staying legal. As a single example, if Diddy can use two Bananas again, then there is huge potential for wall locks even without Glide Tossing. Not only that, but I'd be shocked if there wasn't at least one character than can squeak out a wall infinite a'la D3 D-Throw against a wall, which might be a deciding factor if it ends up being overcentralizing.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I am 100% sure this has been mentioned already, but you need to factor the effect walls will have on a stage staying legal. As a single example, if Diddy can use two Bananas again, then there is huge potential for wall locks even without Glide Tossing. Not only that, but I'd be shocked if there wasn't at least one character than can squeak out a wall infinite a'la D3 D-Throw against a wall, which might be a deciding factor if it ends up being overcentralizing.

Jab locks were confirmed possible for at least Pikachu in the demo.

 

[ryuu seika]

Willy's Castle isn't actually that bad. I could see it as a possible counter pick actually.

The Yellow Devil breaks up the stage too much, appears too often and requires too much avoidance for the stage to be legal.

Pilots Wings is a little weird. Somehow I kept on getting hurt by something while I was in the air, and it wasn't a player, it was like some kind of invisible hazard or something. But with how the stage works I could see counter pick or starter for it.

Was it the rings by any chance?
The stage looks like a good one but it does seem to force air combat. Characters with a poor aerial game (esp. Little Mac) will be greatly hindered by it so I would say counter pick.

Coliseum is a no go and the boxing ring, even if it weren't a massive walkoff, has such a dominating cental hazard with so much potential abuse that I wouldn't even touch it in friendlies.

 

[CF711]

Obviously Battlefield and FD are going to be starters so we don't need to discuss them.

As far as the other stages here's my opinion on them.

Boxing Ring - Banned - Interactive hazard, walls and walk-offs.
Galaxy - Banned - I think the gravity mechanic will affect play too much to be competitive.
Skyloft - Counterpick - Same reasoning that Delfino was a counterpick
Pyroshphere - Banned/Doubles Only - We have to wait and see if there are stage hazards/boss.
Halberd - Counterpick/Banned - This ultimately comes down to how many viable stages we have imo.
Kalos - Starter/Counterpick - I would like to see more from this stage, but right now I think we can say we will be playing on it.
Paluntena's Temple - Banned - Next.
Garden of Hope - Banned/Doubles Only - Big stage, but could be viable for doubles
Town and City - Starter - Good stage which will be legal to play on.
Wii Fit Studio - Banned - Walk-offs
Windy Hill - Banned - Platforms that can KO you if you stand on them
Willy's Castle - Banned - Interactive Hazard
Mushroom Kingdom U - Banned - Falling Hazards (ice) and pufferfish
Coliseum - Banned - Big stage and walk-offs

Pilotwings - Counterpick/Banned - I saved this one for last simply because my view on it is a little different. I don't know if we will see this stage played often. My main reasoning behind that is twofold. First off we have the transition to break up grabs. While that is okay and can be accounted for it does change up gameplay a bit. My big reasoning is the walls on the lower part of the pink plane. As we are relatively familiar with we don't really like walls for competitive play due to the possibility of infinites. Pilotwings has walls on it which could change it's status as a playable stage.

 

[LancerStaff]

There's stage hazards in Pilotwings, the rock formations on the island have strong KO potential.

 

[mimgrim]

The Yellow Devil breaks up the stage too much, appears too often and requires too much avoidance for the stage to be legal.

It really doesn;t seem that bad to me. But w/e. I already said it will probably be banned anyways. No point in continuing discussing about it.

Was it the rings by any chance?
The stage looks like a good one but it does seem to force air combat. Characters with a poor aerial game (esp. Little Mac) will be greatly hindered by it so I would say counter pick.

I have no idea what it was. All I know was that all of a sudden I was in hitstun and taking damage but it wasn't due to another player attacking me.

 

[Sahfarry]

There's stage hazards in Pilotwings, the rock formations on the island have strong KO potential.

Rock formations? Dang I have not seen that anywhere in the videos.

It really doesn;t seem that bad to me. But w/e. I already said it will probably be banned anyways. No point in continuing discussing about it.

Just a question... during the Yellow Devil's transition to the other side of the stage.. how easy is it to "escape"?

 

[LancerStaff]

Rock formations? Dang I have not seen that anywhere in the videos.

Just a question... during the Yellow Devil's transition to the other side of the stage.. how easy is it to "escape"?

It's in one of the Treehouse clips.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think every stage in the demo has some potential except the Boxing Ring (just awful stage).

BF is BF. Town and City is so plain that I don't feel like wasting time justifying it.

Skyloft is a great stage, very Delfino-esque. None of the forms are really "issues"; you just have to deal with a variety of geography which is very good for a stage favoring many different characters.

I don't get why people are writing off Mushroom Kingdom U; I was actaully really impressed by that stage. It gives absurdly massive tells when it's going to transform (Kamek sits there for several seconds before even starting the animation), and even then, it transitions gradually. There are a ton of possible geographies, but every possible configuration seems very tame. The only "problem" really would be the icicles which both seem very rare (I only saw them once out of quite a few matches) and really slow/easy to avoid. I see this stage as a strong contender for legality.

Pilotwings seemed really simple to me; is it actually able to do different things since it seemed to just always follow the same really basic path? I didn't see any rocks at all on that stage; are they in the far corners briefly or something? If they are there, they're either really rare or really far out of the way and probably not a big deal ayway; I feel this stage is a shoe-in.

Wily's Castle didn't seem so bad to me either. The Yellow Devil is really in the way for a while, but he does such poor damage and knockback (he seems to do fixed knockback and thus never kills, saw people fly about nowhere at over 100%) that he's not very different from just a large object that effectively makes it so you're fighting on a small stage. We'll have to play around with it in singles and deal with the very strange dynamic of an effectively very small stage with a huge ceiling, but the YD in no way is instantly disqualifying this one.

The Coliseum seems kinda borderline; it's not quite as big as Eldin from what I can tell, but it's still pretty large with those double walk-offs. I feel like the fate of this stage basically rests entirely on the direction of the metagame and less on the properties of this stage itself so we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Sahfarry]

The Coliseum seems kinda borderline; it's not quite as big as Eldin from what I can tell, but it's still pretty large with those double walk-offs. I feel like the fate of this stage basically rests entirely on the direction of the metagame and less on the properties of this stage itself so we'll have to wait and see.

When I read "double-walkoffs" I was thinking if there's been a stage with a walkoff on one side and a cliff on another. Would be a cool addition as I can't think of any right now (75m?). I wonder if those would be tournament legal if they existed.