Stage Legality Speculations

[smashmachine]

looks like the Boxing Ring is gonna be BANNED

 

[Deleted member]

Since it was walk-off, better have the more hazards possible for friendlies

 

[Bravetriforcer]

Watch every stage except FD and Battlefield actually have hazards and bosses you can't turn off, making FD and Battlefield the only ultimately legal stage.

 

[Empyrean]

Even though I knew the stage was probably not going to be legal, I wonder if the top platform will be go-through.

 

[Deleted member]

Watch every stage except FD and Battlefield actually have hazards and bosses you can't turn off, making FD and Battlefield the only ultimately legal stage.

Wouldn't mind that, especially since I hated Smashville's platfrorm

 

[Aninymouse]

Watch every stage except FD and Battlefield actually have hazards and bosses you can't turn off, making FD and Battlefield the only ultimately legal stage.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder about that, myself. I'm becoming more sure of that the more I see of these stages, but some of them look neautral enough. Pilotwings seems well-received in general, for instance. Rainbow Road just looks like an updated Mute City, which was fine in Melee. Skyloft is probably fine, too. And of course the new Smashville looks great. But these are all "travelling stages"; the stage in question has minor changes while the background tavels around the area. All the "stationary" stages so far look pretty dicey.

BUT, the fact that Town & City, Rainbow Road (3DS), Pilotwings, and Skyloft all seem tournament legal so far gives me a lot of hope for Pokemon League! Plus, it looks like a gorgeous stage, to boot.

 

[Deleted member]

idk, is there any chance Pilotwings could end up being a starter? The stage nooks neutral enough

 

[LancerStaff]

idk, is there any chance Pilotwings could end up being a starter? The stage nooks neutral enough

Was Lylat Cruise a starter? As long as you can't camp on the lower wings and it's essentially a tilting FD, I can't really see a reason for it to not be a starter.

 

[Deleted member]

Was Lylat Cruise a starter? As long as you can't camp on the lower wings and it's essentially a tilting FD, I can't really see a reason for it to not be a starter.

The lower wings are too small to have any camping effect, besides, not many projectiles could reach other fighters from that place and just like temporary walk-offs, it isn't during the entire match

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Lylat Cruise was a starter in most regions and had no reason to be anything but that really. The tilting was so trivial, and it's not even like the existance of a slope is inherently unfair. So far Pilotwings has shown us nothing to be concerned about at all really; it looks like a solid stage based on what we know about it. To be fair, I suppose we really don't know very much about it; it could easily have unknown and seriously problematic dynamics.

I've said this elsewhere, but I really don't think the starter-counterpick dichotomy does us any favors. If we have a stage legal, that means we think there's a competitive quality of gameplay there. We could argue what the criteria are for that, but regardless, we hold that matches on that stage are "legitimate" if it's legal. Why then could a stage be legal but not good enough for game one? Doing that sort of thing introduces a lot of character skew toward characters like ICs with no clear gains to fairness independent of your views on stage legality. It also introduces a kinda perverse incentive for playes since, if a stage can't be used in game one, there's a strong argument it's not worth learning at all. After all, if you can win on starters, you can counterpick starters and be guaranteed over half the matches on stages you can win on whereas if you spend your time learning counterpicks you are not creating such a road to victory for yourself. At that point, few learn the counterpick stages and, due to unfamiliarity, you get a force wanting to ban them (notice none of the traditional "counterpick" stages in Melee or Brawl are still commonly legal). We can probably all agree that's not a useful process so, whatever we have legal, we should probably just have it be legal and not have the quasi-legal status of counterpick stages be a thing which will ultimately prove transient anyway.

As per the particulars of the stages we've seen, there's just so much we don't know. We honestly don't know how walk-offs play out in this game with it being very likely that a lot of the combos and chaingrabs that made them particularly nasty in the previous games are gone, and with there being so many of them seemingly, it seems awfully premature to just say they should be banned without due consideration (maybe they're in the game for a reason?). We don't know how strong run-away is either so huge stages like the Garden of Hope or Windy Hill may actually play well (though I have basically no hope for Palutena's Temple to be honest about it); that's something we won't know until we get the game into our hands and really see how these characters control. Obviously if anyone can play like Brawl Wario those stages are going to be huge problems, but it very well may be that the size doesn't cause issues if it's always reasonable to catch people and the average KO power is high. We also don't really know the mechanics of these stages well, and for stages like Wily's Castle or Pyrosphere, that's kinda a critical point. Just how frequent and powerful are these hazards, and how does the stage actually play out with them? Halberd fires a giant laser at us, and I think it really is a minority that has a problem with that stage since as it turns out Halberd's hazards are really trivial.

Obviously some people look at what makes a good stage differently than others, but I hope we can all agree that we need to make final decisions based on complete information and need to consider what's in the game in its entirety with some level of good faith. Yeah, we're going to use our previous knowledge to explore more quickly and hopefully can work together in an organized and coherent way, but I don't want a situation where we instantly ban 3/4 of the stages in the game and never are even able to give a reason why that we can actually back up since that is going to cause us unnecessary problems. Luckily the 3DS version will let us scout out the game mechanics so we'll be able to answer a lot of the big questions before the Wii U version actually launches and we have a pressing need to make the decisions to run events, but for now, we really know a lot less than it's easy to think we know. I'm all for talking about how we're going to do rulesets, but a discussion on banning or not banning particular stages with what we know now doesn't really seem possibly productive.

 

[Aninymouse]

Luckily the 3DS version will let us scout out the game mechanics so we'll be able to answer a lot of the big questions before the Wii U version actually launches and we have a pressing need to make the decisions to run events, but for now, we really know a lot less than it's easy to think we know. I'm all for talking about how we're going to do rulesets, but a discussion on banning or not banning particular stages with what we know now doesn't really seem possibly productive.

Maybe it's not particularly productive, but it does give us something to talk about. There's not much to discuss with Smash 4 right now. We're in kind of a news drought, waiting for the next big announcement.

Stages are a somewhat easy thing to extrapolate on, compared to more complex topics like the characters. Sure, everything we think we know about some stages could be wrong. But, the game looks to operate on much the same basic level as all the Smash games before it; it doesn't appear like they're trying to reinvent the wheel, when it comes to stages. So, since we'v been playing on Smash stages for so many years, it becomes easy to extrapolate on their competitive validity, based on past experience.

Now, I was preaching, "let's wait and see," when it came to custom movesets. That is a brand new feature of the game, unlike any we have seen, for which we have no basis for reasonable opinions based on past experience. With stages, though? A little conjecture and discussion isn't out of the question.

Take the Mario Bros stage for 3DS: a fast scrolling stage featuring huge hazards. No one is likely to seriously suggest such a stage has any place in a real tournament (3DS version exclusive aside, for a moment). Is it really so unfair to set a low expectation for such a stage? Isn't it reasonable, based on all Smash games thus far, to assume that a good number of stages will never see competitive play? That's not a tragedy. We are still going to have plenty of stages to fight on.

Likewise, I see no harm in getting excited and discussing the possibilities of new stages that appear to be tournament legal, like Town & City. No one suspects that such a stage would be banned, because it looks very similar to it's last-gen counterpart. So even if that assumption is proven wrong later, it really hurts nothing to discuss zoning or recovery or whatnot on such a stage. We're very likely to be playing a lot of matches on that stage in the near future, based on what we know so far about it.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I can see Garden of Hope being a legal Doubles stage, even if CP only. Same with Pyrosphere, but that is under the assumption that the hazard isn't very disruptive (Yellow Devil killed Wily Castle! Why Sakurai, why!?).

 

[Sahfarry]

I can see Garden of Hope being a legal Doubles stage, even if CP only. Same with Pyrosphere, but that is under the assumption that the hazard isn't very disruptive (Yellow Devil killed Wily Castle! Why Sakurai, why!?).

what if there is an option, independent of final d mode where you can turn off stage bosses

ah, what a wonderful dream i just had

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

what if there is an option, independent of final d mode where you can turn off stage bosses

ah, what a wonderful dream i just had

I remember Sakurai saying in an interview that the reason he didn't want to include a Stage Hazard Toggle is that it would make the game too similar to Playstation All-Stars. I rolled my eyes when I read that. Sakurai, I love you man, but seriously there's nothing wrong with taking one idea if the idea is good. It would only be copying one feature of PSASBR not a core element of its gameplay -.-

 

[Sahfarry]

I remember Sakurai saying in an interview that the reason he didn't want to include a Stage Hazard Toggle is that it would make the game too similar to Playstation All-Stars. I rolled my eyes when I read that. Sakurai, I love you man, but seriously there's nothing wrong with taking one idea if the idea is good. It would only be copying one feature of PSASBR not a core element of its gameplay -.-

Did he actually talk about that game? Directly? Insane. That's not even a major feature exclusive to PSAS... This and animated cutscenes for me. Just put it in, Sakurai.

Do you have a source for this piece of info bc im curious now.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

Did he actually talk about that game? Directly? Insane. That's not even a major feature exclusive to PSAS... This and animated cutscenes for me. Just put it in, Sakurai.

Do you have a source for this piece of info bc im curious now.

It can be found here.

 

[DunnoBro]

I have hope for Wily's castle, if yellow Devil is only like every 3 mins like the cannon blast on halberd, and can be killed before he can attack too many times consistently with only one character, it might be okay.

I kind of doubt a "Boss" will be so easy to kill though.

 

[Deleted member]

I can see Garden of Hope being a legal Doubles stage, even if CP only. Same with Pyrosphere, but that is under the assumption that the hazard isn't very disruptive (Yellow Devil killed Wily Castle! Why Sakurai, why!?).

Calling it, Pyrosphere will be legal because there is no hazardley

 

[Morbi]

I have hope for Wily's castle, if yellow Devil is only like every 3 mins like the cannon blast on halberd, and can be killed before he can attack too many times consistently with only one character, it might be okay.

I kind of doubt a "Boss" will be so easy to kill though.

There is NO way Wily's Castle would be legal, the Final Destination version would, but not the original. That stage isn't feasible.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Pilotwings definitely has hope. We haven't seen enough of it and I doubt that stage is going to do anything too gimmicky. It looks kinda like our Delfino Plaza. Garden of Hope seems too camp-happy for me, but it *could* work in Doubles. I'll write more on this later but I think you've covered most of my thoughts.

please stay i like you and your avatar we need more Pinocchio fans in here - great write up

 

[Empyrean]

Pilotwings is definitely gonna be a legal counter-pick, unless Sakurai finds a way to break that stage too with some random-ass boss or something.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pilotwings is definitely gonna be a legal counter-pick, unless Sakurai finds a way to break that stage too with some random-*** boss or something.

The Hawk Mecha from 64? (Person, not animal.)

 

[Deleted member]

Pilotwings is definitely gonna be a legal counter-pick, unless Sakurai finds a way to break that stage too with some random-*** boss or something.

10 warplanes are invincible hazards who shoot at you 30 missiles per second

 

[WritersBlah]

OP has been edited with new information about Mushroom Kingdom U. Please feel free to discuss! Or not if you don't want to...

 

[Thirdkoopa]

The problem with the Mushroomy Kingdom U is two things

1. We don't know how long it'll take to change - Frankly, if Kamek's transformation spell isn't that bad and we've got one or two stinkers in transformations, it might not be THAT BAD of a stage to be legal as a Counter pick. We've only seen one hazard, and I'm going to assume we're going to see a hazard per stage part at most

2. On the opposing hand, we really don't know much about what can and CAN'T be done, along with the fact we don't know how many more transformations we'll have. Based on NSMBU, 4-6 more is a safe bet, so it's very possible at least two of these will have more hazards that will induce chaos.

While I love the FD mode (Esp if it leads to different type of FD's), I really do wish we had a "Hazard off" mode to experiment around more - That'd allow more risk in the vanilla stages having more life. I don't know; it always felt really empty to fight on places and only having the characters available fighting.

Once again, great job. Can't wait to see what you have to say about anything announced at E3 and I'm sure we're all gonna be keeping a good eye for hazards (And FD modes if those are playable) - I'd love to see what you'd have to say on the 3DS stages but frankly most of them look to be ban's straight off the bat unless there's some parallel topic I've missed...

Hopefully I'll have time to throw in my opinions on the rest of this, but I still agree with AA on changing the way we do CP's and just making everything legal or not legal since we end up banning most stages anyways. (With good reasoning, ofc)

 

[LiteralGrill]

These threads always amuse me. Remember when Alpha Zealot wrote that Yoshi's Island had a huge chance of being banned based on it's transformations? Seriously!

But honestly, while it's fun to speculate remember that we could be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY wrong on these.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

But honestly, while it's fun to speculate remember that we could be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY wrong on these.

To be fair, for that one we've already seen one hazard, and NSMB U is a pretty chaotic game.

...but yeah it's possible for us to be wrong on a few of these, doubt it's gonna be most of them though.

 

[mimgrim]

These threads always amuse me. Remember when Alpha Zealot wrote that Yoshi's Island had a huge chance of being banned based on it's transformations? Seriously!

Yoshia's Island has a transformation? Wha?

 

[LiteralGrill]

To be fair, for that one we've already seen one hazard, and NSMB U is a pretty chaotic game.

...but yeah it's possible for us to be wrong on a few of these, doubt it's gonna be most of them though.

It is true that we can make at least some worthwhile guesses for sure. Honestly, I have this sinking feeling that it'll end up banned though if that fish is strong in almost any way. People really have a strong bias against having any kind of remotely strong hazards.

Yoshia's Island has a transformation? Wha?

You know how the seasons change? He thought that might effect the stage in some way. I've tried finding it to quote it but with the search function being all wack lately I can't, I'll keep looking though.

 

[Empyrean]

Hmm, the platforms being solid could really jeopardize this stage's chances, even without the fish hazard. I have strong doubts about this one, but we'll probably know for sure in a few days.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

It is true that we can make at least some worthwhile guesses for sure. Honestly, I have this sinking feeling that it'll end up banned though if that fish is strong in almost any way. People really have a strong bias against having any kind of remotely strong hazards.

It depends on how many transformations Mushroomy Kingdom U has - that one we'll have to see but there's at least 2 more transformations probably given the big scale of NSMB U. If there's 6-8 transformations, it's likely that they'll either change fast or aren't all expected at once, so the hazards may be avoidable *If* it changes fast enough. Similar to say the Delfino walk-off sections

On the other hand, has anyone entertained the notion of if you hit one of the blocks when it starts out? Like it possibly has an item? Or if they're breakable?

Hmm, the platforms being solid could really jeopardize this stage's chances, even without the fish hazard. I have strong doubts about this one, but we'll probably know for sure in a few days.

oh right that

even if they can be breakable i doubt that'll work either. shame too; it's looking like a nice stage for doubles

 

[Sahfarry]

You know how the seasons change? He thought that might effect the stage in some way. I've tried finding it to quote it but with the search function being all wack lately I can't, I'll keep looking though.

Oh, well isn't that a tad different than this instance then? Because we were shown a transformation, what it did, and a stage hazard even.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Oh, well isn't that a tad different than this instance then? Because we were shown a transformation, what it did, and a stage hazard even.

Yes, I just wanted to point out how wrong we all could be on some stages and show a funny example of that happening previously.

 

[Empyrean]

Welp, new stage, and it looks so pretty too.

Really hope that that ain't walkoffs.

 

[Deleted member]

Yay, walk-offs /sarcarsm
Hope it's a transformation stage that changes like Arena Ferox, but I don't want FE stages to be the new Pokemon Stadium

 

[Empyrean]

I just hope we don't get too many transformation stages. Here's hoping the Pokemon one doesn't transform.

 

[ScottyWK]

Welp, new stage, and it looks so pretty too.

Really hope that that ain't walkoffs.

Feels like the Coliseum will be a counterpick. If platforms come out of the ground, then maybe the platforms will lift the arena up, leaving the "walkoff" portion we see as only part of the stage's dynamic.

 

[Empyrean]

Feels like the Coliseum will be a counterpick. If platforms come out of the ground, then maybe the platforms will lift the arena up, leaving the "walkoff" portion we see as only part of the stage's dynamic.

We can only hope so. But seeing as the stage looks rather wide, I doubt it's gonna be anything other than a walkoff.

 

[WritersBlah]

OP has been updated with speculation on Coliseum.

On a side note, what the heck is with Sakurai and walkoff stages in this game? Seriously, there's like, a ton of them. Or it could be Namco-Bandai's doing...maybe they aren't well-versed in Smash's metagame and are doing it in an attempt to appear more competitive-friendly?

 

[LancerStaff]

OP has been updated with speculation on Coliseum.

On a side note, what the heck is with Sakurai and walkoff stages in this game? Seriously, there's like, a ton of them. Or it could be Namco-Bandai's doing...maybe they aren't well-versed in Smash's metagame and are doing it in an attempt to appear more competitive-friendly?

Or they're not making as many competitive stages because the FD mode exists. Makes more sense then Namco being stupid.