Stage Discussion Round #2: Lylat Cruise

[Tero.]

We still haven't agreed on the moment of voting, so I'm just going to start discussion on the next stage. I picked LC because I think it's closer to neutral than the other stages left.

LC discussion go!

 

[Blinky]

Well I think that it is definately agreed that this is not a stage worthy of banning, my guess is more people are in favour of making this counterpick. I only see two factors in determining this, the ledges, and the slope of the stage changing. The ledges i dont think are an issue, they dont move drastically, so can be accounted for. The sloping stage I'm not sure on it can alter alot of things, but at the same time, it could alter nothing. Kind of interesting, I think I'll wait for more opinions before I come to a conclusion.

 

[Marc]

I'm thinking it makes for a good fifth stage with stage striking, but on the other hand I've heard the most complaints about this stage being neutral by far. Random select with four stages (FD/BF/SV/YS) seems to be preferred over here.

 

[Blad01]

I'm thinking it makes for a good fifth stage with stage striking, but on the other hand I've heard the most complaints about this stage being neutral by far. Random select with four stages (FD/BF/SV/YS) seems to be preferred over here.

Hum I don't really know if it's the subject of the thread...

Personnally I think MC is clearly a CP. Let's see if a discussion is needed.

 

[Marcbri]

In spain it's a cp stage at the moment, with the main reason being the stage constantly moving and this messing up with recoveries.

I personally don't care if this is starter or cp but if I were to choose I would probably go cp since it gives some characters more advantage than usual for an starter stage and MANY characters ( unlike yoshi's) some important disadvantages.

 

[Greward]

In spain it's a cp stage at the moment, with the main reason being the stage constantly moving and this messing up with recoveries.

I personally don't care if this is starter or cp but if I were to choose I would probably go cp since it gives some characters more advantage than usual for an starter stage and MANY characters ( unlike yoshi's) some important disadvantages.

In spain we still dont have decided neutral/counterpicks, u cant say this only because in te IWMMB it were counterpick and we decided it because i didnt want PKMN stadium as starter and you didnt want lylat cruise as starter.

I think its starter, it dont give great advantages (who has a great advantage here? >_>) and the only disadvantage it can give is when recovering or sometimes when camping with lasers or other projectile like this. Yea, falco gets a little worse, as wario gets worse on FD and etc

 

[Blad01]

In spain we still dont have decided neutral/counterpicks, u cant say this only because in te IWMMB it were counterpick and we decided it because i didnt want PKMN stadium as starter and you didnt want lylat cruise as starter.

I think its starter, it dont give great advantages (who has a great advantage here? >_>) and the only disadvantage it can give is when recovering or sometimes when camping with lasers or other projectile like this. Yea, falco gets a little worse, as wario gets worse on FD and etc

Theses discussions are really useless, we all have different criterias. Personnally, I couldn't say a character "gets worse" on FD, since FD is the most basic stage. FD is meant to be the reference for me, so I can't say a character is 'better' or 'worse' on it (better / worse than where anyways ?).
On FD, Wario is how he is meant to be : Very Good. Since he has no projectiles, he has a weakness, yes.
He can counterbalance this weakness on other (smaller) stages, and platforms give him a boost, since he can use his very good aerial more effectively, can camp on platforms etc.

So we have to define the criterias, the stage(s) reference(s), etc AT FIRST. Without this, all these discussions are based on.... Nothing ?

 

[Blinky]

Actually, pretty much everyone outside of france have very similar "criteria". Also, "fixed criteria" doesn't work, as the only thing that is truely decided upon is that it can not cause large changes in matchups. Fixed criteria is the wrong approach.

Also, using FD as a reference stage is a horrible idea. The playstyles and and benefits from that stage are unique compared to any other stage. If you really need a reference stage, battlefield or smashville would be better choices, I'd even be willing to say YI is a better reference stage. However, I dislike the idea of a reference stage in general, as it presumes that all the stages are very similar, which they are not.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I think this should be counter pick. The stage tilts all the time and the edges don't allow a normal recovery.

 

[:034:]

Lylat is a pretty fine counterpick to me, most of the reasons already seen above... The stage tilting and the weird edges give a clear advantage to certain characters and it's unlike any current neutral stage in Brawl.

 

[Greward]

FD isnt the most neutral stage omg, its the only playable stage with no platforms, it's large and has a bad edge.
FD's edges are as bad as lylat's, but FD dont tilt D:
I want to ask who has got a big advantage here for the counterpick reasons (tilting, because bad edge isnt a good reason) maybe characters with good recovery? I havent heard this stage as one of MK's best stages D:

 

[-Jumpman-]

I agree, FD is a bad stage.

 

[Tero.]

Personally I don't feel like there are enough valid reasons to classify Lylat Cruise as a counterpick stage. Actually I don't even think that LC is more counterpick worthy than Yoshi's Island.

I'd say make both neutral or both counterpick but what ever, it's just me.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Like I said, I disagree. The stage tilting stops players from performing their actions. The difference with YI is that this stage constantly tilts(!), it's not stationary.

The edges are worse than FD's, and those are bad. Characters liek Diddy Kong have an extremely low chance of recovering safely because of the edge.

I know it might sound weird to allow YI but disallow this stage, I know .Tero, but there are differences. And many people think these small differences are the line between neutral en CP.

 

[Marcbri]

FD isnt the most neutral stage omg, its the only playable stage with no platforms, it's large and has a bad edge.
FD's edges are as bad as lylat's, but FD dont tilt D:
I want to ask who has got a big advantage here for the counterpick reasons (tilting, because bad edge isnt a good reason) maybe characters with good recovery? I havent heard this stage as one of MK's best stages D:

As far as I know good chars here are Peach, Pit, Wario ,G&W and Metaknight. there may be others but these are the characters that have cped me here.

however it isn't a big advantage to any of them imo, the cp thing is more because the tilting screws up so many characters.

 

[Greward]

Personally I don't feel like there are enough valid reasons to classify Lylat Cruise as a counterpick stage. Actually I don't even think that LC is more counterpick worthy than Yoshi's Island.

I'd say make both neutral or both counterpick but what ever, it's just me.

^ This. I think this is more neutral than yoshi's.

The stage tilting can make some problems on recovering but they are no so important, and most characters will arrive to stage without problems, or recovering higher and not going to the edge. And if u look to the background, sometimes u will know if the stage is going to tilt (the spaceshift evades the "spatial rocks" and other things). They are not so random.

 

[auroreon]

I'm casting my vote on Counterpick for this one.
Most of the reasoning my counterpick are just re-iterating what has been said already.
The edge on this stage as many have stated is even worse than on FD, and unlike FD this stage tilts. It can not only ruin a few characters recoveries easily, it can also provide an advantage for certain characters who can take advantage of how thin the main platform is by attacking through the floor from under the edge.
Also, the platforms on this stage are very low and have much more of an effect on the match than on YI. The three seperate platforms and their placing and low height above the main platform can make it very difficult for some characters to return to the main stage and can give an advantage to other characters who use this to their advantage.

I think with stage striking however, this is a logical choice for neutral along with YI. The stage striking system is obviously doesn't work with just 3 stages, and I think most will agree that this along with YI are the only other stages that could be argued for neutral other than the obvious 3.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This stage is a CP imo. It's not only the hazards but also the amount of **** match-up's that makes this stage a bad choice for starters. If you use 4 stages + random, this stage shouldn't be even considered.
If you use 5 stages with stage striking PS1 is a better starter stage imo. It has more hazards and promotes camping more than LC does but it rarely pushes a match-up clearly in one character's favour, which is more important to me.
If you use 4 starter stages FD, BF, SV and YI are obvious choices.
If you use 3 starter stages PS1 >>> LC

Also, BF is the fairest stage imo

 

[Greward]

LOL, PS1 is no way better starter than this, the transformations stay a lot of time and can evade kills, infinite chains or locks, semi stalling, ... 2/3 times the stage platforms it becomes in both players being in one side of the stage without doing anything. Just because it was a starter on Melee it doesn't mean anything.
PS1's edge is as bad or worse than lylat's, actually I have a lot of trouble more on PS1's one than on Lylat's, and i have both stages on random (this means i play the same time on both stages). Oh, PS1 edge can make planking too much easier since the edge is on a thinier "platform".
LC doesnt give **** matchups to anyone, i know its bad for space animals, marth, yoshi, ... but it dont give at all a **** matchup.
note: im editing since marc(bri) is correcting my writing errors lol

 

[Blad01]

As far as I know good chars here are Peach, Pit, Wario ,G&W and Metaknight. there may be others but these are the characters that have cped me here.

however it isn't a big advantage to any of them imo, the cp thing is more because the tilting screws up so many characters.

An advantage in a match-up should not be considered as a criteria anyways. Striking stage is only here to counter these rare kind of stages.

 

[-Jumpman-]

An advantage in a match-up should not be considered as a criteria anyways. Striking stage is only here to counter these rare kind of stages.

Like said before, everyone has their own criteria. Many people DO think matchups are criteria.

 

[Blad01]

Like said before, everyone has their own criteria. Many people DO think matchups are criteria.

Yes, and that's why we need a thread on criterias if we want a serious discussion...

EDIT : Created.