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Stage Banning

Beeble

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Messages
330
Location
Toronto, ON
I'm going to be attending a tournament soon which has stagebanning i.e. you get to ban one stage for the duration of a match. I'm thinking about Dreamland as it doesn't help Yoshi a lot. I mean, yes, it can be good when the opponent's recovery is worse, for instance, Falco, but more often then not, I think it is detrimental for this to be an available counterstage. Any thoughts on what I should ban (this is for people I will play whose main is unknown to me)?
 

Shiri

Smash Chump
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
3,804
:yoshi: Bringer's right--Yoshi has decent options on a wide variety of stages.

If anything, ban on your preference of what you personally dislike. Also, focus lots on counterpick stages; Yoshi makes those real fun. ^_^
 

park5150

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
609
Location
mofodesto
if they have a lot of counter pick stages like mute city. then ban that stage becuase it has no edges at all, and its my worst stage but its all up to you.
 

Beeble

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Messages
330
Location
Toronto, ON
:yoshi: Bringer's right--Yoshi has decent options on a wide variety of stages.

If anything, ban on your preference of what you personally dislike. Also, focus lots on counterpick stages; Yoshi makes those real fun. ^_^
I started a thread on counterstaging a while ago, and everyone said focus on who you are playing against and exploit their weaknesses as Yoshi was very middle-of-the-road as far as stage advantages/disadvantages went. But now it looks like Shiri might have some stages he likes to bust out? hmm?

I've been thinking about using Jungle Japes for all the edges or Brinstar for the lava. Thoughts?

Back to banning: Should I bother banning a non-neutral stage like Pokefloats or mute?
 

park5150

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
609
Location
mofodesto
I started a thread on counterstaging a while ago, and everyone said focus on who you are playing against and exploit their weaknesses as Yoshi was very middle-of-the-road as far as stage advantages/disadvantages went. But now it looks like Shiri might have some stages he likes to bust out? hmm?

I've been thinking about using Jungle Japes for all the edges or Brinstar for the lava. Thoughts?

Back to banning: Should I bother banning a non-neutral stage like Pokefloats or mute?
if its a hard matchup for yoshi...then ban the approite stage...ie peach and dreamland

but if its non hardmatchup then ban mute city
 

rmusgrave

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 15, 2002
Messages
2,108
Location
Perth, Western Australia
What would be a good idea is to keep a track of people in your pool/bracket. That way you can see who you are likely to face and what their counterstages are. If you're uncomfortable with that stage then ban it when you face them.
 

Rob_Gambino

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Messages
1,206
Do not go to Jungles Japes against good space animals. JJ can be fun if you can sucker them into d-tilts and d-smashes though. Ban those "weird" stages when you know your opponent likes to pick them. Also, if you're facing a fox and onnet is not banned, ban onnet. You come across a pikachu, ban corneria.

Oddly enough I like to take marth's to yoshi's story though. Honestly against the better marths, it's the only stage I'll win on.
 

Seanson

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
537
Location
Little Canada, MN
I don't ban mute city, I counterpick it. The no edge very much greatly increases my gimping abilities. Even against a peach or puff, I've had great success with KOs off the top.

I usually ban battlefield. Besides the fact it's kind of small, I'd rather be able to dash attack at the edge and not have to worry about ending up under the stage.
 

heynivek

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
116
Location
Rockville, MD/ Pittsburgh, PA
For me, edgegaurding is such an important part of yoshi's strategy, and it is rather difficult to straight up knock out many characters/opponents off the stage, I would avoid using yoshi in large, moving stages like Poke Floats and Rainbow Cruise. Yoshi's ability to stay alive does not usually make up for the frustration of trying to finish a stock off of e.g. a fox that is constantly running away from you.
 

Rob_Gambino

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Messages
1,206
floats against a jiggs or marth that doesn't know jack about yoshi or the stage is too fun though.
 

-PM-

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
877
Location
Dearborn Heights
honestly it really depends on the character your going against like if you look at all the characters and there weaknesses like i like to take space animals to maps with a huge up'er edge because of falcos and foxes uptilt and upsmashes cause thats there main way of killing besides falcos stupid meteor.

or i would never take peach to dreamland or puff or kirby its just a bad idea lol. same thing with taking idk luigi and the mario bros to FD i just have alot of problems on those maps with them so i always ban them.

just ban whatever makes you comfortable.
 

Shiri

Smash Chump
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
3,804
:yoshi: I've actually been thinking about Peach and Dreamland for a few months, now.

If you look at the way Peach plays most of the time (not all), it's a fairly linear set of strategies. Float-canceled neutral airs and forward airs, roll to downsmash, dash attacks, maybe down air to downsmash combos, with a healthy dose of turnips and jabs mixed in. What I'm getting at is the fact that her knockout moves on Yoshi (dash attack, neutral air, forward air) are all a pretty consistent part of her on-stage strategy, too. That being said, her main on-stage tactics lose their power, thanks to damage reduction (although I don't think any significant testing has been done on whether knockback is reduced or not, but we can generally assume it is), quite rapidly. This is significant because Yoshi is so heavy--if we make a general assumption on at least minimal knockback reduction correlating with damage reduction, then Yoshi becomes increasingly harder to knock out as a stock goes on, especially on a big stage such as Dreamland 64. Toss in some skill/luck DI, and that's pretty powerful.

I've lived to 320% on Dreamland 64 via DI (either by luck or skill) by aiming for the very top corners, even against very horizontal moves.

While I love tooting my own horn, this is more to get the point across that if you approach KOing Peach a certain way, then you can see some marginal success in survivability and perhaps in overall match outcomes. My number one way to KO Peach on any stage with Yoshi, regardless of size, is a meteor. She simply does not survive for even an acceptable amount of the time for her. No matter what stage, you can almost always count on a KO in the downwards direction. In truth, the best part of this tactic is that even if you miss, they cannot retaliate until they grab the ledge (unlike Sheik, Ganondorf, Marth, etc.). On some smaller stages, I'll go for horizontal KOs (Yoshi's Story, Battlefield, etc.) even though she's heavy, but I do that because it's much easier to knock her away and risk her coming back than trying to get under her and almost never get a chance to KO. My secondary tactic to meteors is being quite homosexual with down tilt. If you thought down tilt to down tilt to edgehog works on tournament Falcos (and it does, just for the record), wait till you see it on tourney Peaches. It has about a 60% rate of success, and most other times you can angle a forward tilt or toss an egg or something if you see it won't stop them from grabbing the ledge.

One of Sheik and Fox's main ways to gay Peach is just to stop her from ledge grabbing.

I submit to you guys that if you take an approach similar to this in your KO philosophy on Peach, you may see some sort of turnaround on Dreamland 64. **** taking Jigglypuff there, though. >_>
 

-PM-

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
877
Location
Dearborn Heights
wow shiri that reminded me of maelstrom lol long posts lol

on another note, what map would everyone recommend taking luigi? i hate him on FD and FoDs he moves around to quick and has an insane recover not to mention i get gimped out alot. i have issues against him but i can destory him with mario ^-^ but i want my yoshi better cause hes awsome.
 

rmusgrave

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 15, 2002
Messages
2,108
Location
Perth, Western Australia
Luigi's recovery is horizontal and vertical. Nothing in between. Abuse it by edgehogging when he's below the edge and interrupting his forward B either by taking it or spiking him at the end. Luigi is annoying though, and I suspect I would lose to a Luigi better than the ones I have fought, as I tend to just outspace Luigi to beat him.

Shiri: I have trouble outliving Peach because most Peaches I face avoid spikes and meteor recover really well. I know for a fact that my local Peach recovers almost exclusively with float, leaving his double jump and up-b for avoiding edgeguards, and float is uber at sweetspotting. And to think I taught him to untumble float >_<. Basically, I'm just saying I don't want to rely on spikes that have a very low success rate and can get you punished by a floating Peach if you miss.

I will spike if I land an egg or manage to push her back by tossing an egg to where she is floating to though.
 

Shiri

Smash Chump
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
3,804
:yoshi: BRINGER WHY

WHY WOULD YOU TEACH THE PEACH HOW TO UNTUMBLE FLOAT NOOOOOOOOOOOO
 

Seanson

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
537
Location
Little Canada, MN
In response to shiri's super long post:

Shiri, do you go for meteor KOs at low % or wait until med-high %?

My tactic is to hit peach away by whatever means, and use eggs to do more damage. Almost every kill I do on a peach is from the top. 80% of the time I kill a peach from the top after an egg lay. Sure, dreamland may be big, but the longer peach is far, the more time you have to use eggs to get peach up to 130%+ to make any up air a killing move. Often, I'll try to do egg combos too.
 

Shiri

Smash Chump
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
3,804
:yoshi: I have a tough time getting under Peach on that stage for some reason. It's probably just my playstyle.

I got for meteors at around 60% or so. It's at that percent that attacks can send Peach low and far enough to make a meteor cancel worthless if she does end up canceling it. Unfortunately, Peach players tend to have decent to good DI because of all the Fox nonsense they have to deal with, so I'm probably making it sound easier than it is.
 

-PM-

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
877
Location
Dearborn Heights
you know what i found that works pretty good to get a meteor off

really risky though but it looks really sexy lol

Reverse Edge Egg --> Reverse jump off ledge --> Fair --> air dodge back on map =]

no one sees it coming and it looks badass and they sometimes get stunned from the egg =]
 

Winnar

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
1,921
Location
Mississippi
:o That sounds pretty badass. Make a video where we can see it sometime (cuz i no i m 2 nubly 2 pull tht off). :D

I would comment on what stages I find work well, but I still suck! I'd probably give you the wrong advice! :D
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
PM, i tried that a few times, its uber! Its tricky to pull off, but i was able to kill my friend easily, and he couldnt stop it. Of course, i tried another time and missed and died... :yoshi:
 

-PM-

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
877
Location
Dearborn Heights
it makes you feel like a badass lol

and im making a yoshi combo video even though i main mario (thinking about maining yoshi in brawl cause recover =D)

so when it comes out youll see it used on floaty characters alot =D =D
 
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