Stage Adaptation: Skill or Gimmick?

[deepseadiva]

Player 1 is spiked by a crocodile on Jungle Japes and loses a match.

We don't know whether he was shoved off the platforms by the opponent or if he was hanging on the ledge past his invisibility frames. Did Player 2 win due to skill? Or was this situation caused by a reckless stage list? Could Player 1 have won if only starter stages were legal?

Can we even call stage adaptation a reputable skill in Smash Bros?

Even past stage hazards, we can delve into the notes of stage specific strategies.

Water camping on Pirate Ship. Circling on Luigi's Mansion. Sausage camping on the Green Hill Zone slopes. Ledge jumping on Norfair.

How much of this, if even any of this, is player skill? I'm of the opinion that past banned stages, anything goes. Know the stage, know the strategies, and counterpick and counteract as necessary.

[This is an attempt to get the stage boards to start discussing something beyond their favorite colors.]

 

[Meese]

Its up to the player to know the legal stages, the hazards and the advantages of the terrain.
The counterpick stages are so named because they are supposed to give an edge to the loser through an unbalanced stage.

It may be bad luck that a croc bites ur butt on japes, but you cant say it was unexpected.
A player may not have purposefully hit you at the croc but they clearly did something to keep you near the water or on an edge.

 

[CR4SH]

First of all Ditto everything the previous poster said. He was spot on.

In addition, most stage hazards follow a specific pattern. The bombs on ship, the claptraps on Japes, the cars on port town etc. The ability to pay attention to these hazards, while simultaneously keeping your opponent at least at bay, is definetly an aquired skill. The inability to do these things can absolutely make the difference between the winner and loser in a match, and I think this is entirely appropriate in such a game as we play.

One of the great charms, and biggest assets of this game is that the stages vary. Being able to play the stage as well as your opponent is an absolutely necessary skill in competitive brawl. There is no neutral stage, though some are closer than others. If every game was played on, say, FD, the tier list would blow WIDE open. dK would be the best character in the game for instance.

This game we play is NOT a fighting game in the classical sense. If you like it, like it for what it is, not what you want it to be. If you don't like it, go play street fighter.

 

[Kamikaze*]

****ing gimmick

Seriously, all neutrals and only neutrals should be allowed. BF,FD,Smashville focus on using the character's attributes to win. You actually fight instead having to depend on the environment to help you. When I lose, I want it to be because he ***** me with his bare hands. Not because he tossed me into the Klaptrap on Japes.

 

[CR4SH]

But, that IS ****** you with his own hands.

If you were in that position, he knew it, and you didn't. He's flat out better than you at THIS GAME. Get over it.

 

[Kamikaze*]

But, that IS ****** you with his own hands.

If you were in that position, he knew it, and you didn't. He's flat out better than you at THIS GAME. Get over it.

Not if he can only beat me on japes. I've literally played people like this who can only beat me on the counter pick. Then when I take him back to smashville I beat him.

 

[illinialex24]

Depends. In a doubles match on Japes I got D-throwed by Kirby into a klaptrap spike and couldn't seem to do anything about it....

 

[Sonar009]

Not if he can only beat me on japes. I've literally played people like this who can only beat me on the counter pick. Then when I take him back to smashville I beat him.

How is picking Smashville not the same for you? If I've pegged you right, that's one of exactly 3 stages you pick on. If you play on Smashville approximately a third of the time, and your opponent didn't, that would give you an advantage at Smashville, but of course, because you've pegged that as "neutral" It's OK.

 

[jokey665]

The seagull on Japes comes every 10 seconds exactly. If you get hit by it it's your own **** fault.

 

[Kage Me]

Seagull?

10seagulls

 

[jokey665]

Seagull?

10seagulls

Something of an inside joke.

 

[Kamikaze*]

How is picking Smashville not the same for you? If I've pegged you right, that's one of exactly 3 stages you pick on. If you play on Smashville approximately a third of the time, and your opponent didn't, that would give you an advantage at Smashville, but of course, because you've pegged that as "neutral" It's OK.

There's a reason why smashville is called neutral. Its because it doesn't tip the scales nearly as much as a lot of the counterpicks. So um yeah, of course it's different when I pick smashville. No elements get in the way.

 

[jokey665]

multiple posts full of ignorance

There's a reason you aren't a policy maker. If everyone in the back room thought like you did, competitive Brawl would be the one of the most boring things I can imagine.

 

[Kamikaze*]

There's a reason you aren't a policy maker. If everyone in the back room thought like you did, competitive Brawl would be the one of the most boring things I can imagine.

Just trying to make it like a lot of other fighting games where stages don't affect things as much.

 

[jokey665]

Just trying to make it like a lot of other fighting games where stages don't affect things as much.

Just because other fighting games are boring doesn't mean Smash should be, too. Seriously, I can't stand any fighting games other than Smash.

 

[Kais3000]

One of the great charms, and biggest assets of this game is that the stages vary. Being able to play the stage as well as your opponent is an absolutely necessary skill in competitive brawl. There is no neutral stage, though some are closer than others. If every game was played on, say, FD, the tier list would blow WIDE open. DK would be the best character in the game for instance.

Nothing to do with this arument but:
1) If we only played FD DK would never be played as Falco would destroy him
2) If only neutrals were picked Metaknight would become more of a problem

 

[Zaffy]

Well it all depends, for example, Pictochat is a banned stage, but all the hazards are preset, give a short while to learn them and you know how to dodge them and how to get your opponent into them.

Now, different example, you get hit by the fire of pictochat and die

Same as before, you don't know how the person came into contact with the fire, it could have been the opponent, or their own fault.

Now, the fire is only able to be hit by either jumping, or being hit, no character can be hit without leaving the floor.

So, was this poor playing by you? Should you have been able to avoid the fire and try knocking your opponent into it? Or was it a cheap shot by your opponent to kill you by knocking you into the fire?

 

[SpongeBathBill]

Stage Adaptation: Skill or Gimmick?

More like Stage Adaptation: Skill or Knowledge?

That's the only point of contention. Like TC says, any stage that breaks the game becomes a banned stage; within what's legal, bringing more knowledge and skill to the table than your opponent is, of course, the entire point.

You could argue that memorizing things like stage patterns has nothing to do with skill and is only a time investment, but then that's knowledge.

 

[Gea]

More like Stage Adaptation: Skill or Knowledge?

That's the only point of contention. Like TC says, any stage that breaks the game becomes a banned stage; within what's legal, bringing more knowledge and skill to the table than your opponent is, of course, the entire point.

You could argue that memorizing things like stage patterns has nothing to do with skill and is only a time investment, but then that's knowledge.

This this a million times this.

Play on CP stages more and you will get better at them. Period. People prefer neutral stages more because that's what they play on the most. If you play on all stages equally you will end up (most likely) preferring a counterpick stage that's in your favor for the characters you play.

Most people do not know how to play on CP stages properly. Abuse this correctly and you can often win matches you wouldn't have otherwise. I do it all the time.

 

[AvaricePanda]

This this a million times this.

Play on CP stages more and you will get better at them. Period. People prefer neutral stages more because that's what they play on the most. If you play on all stages equally you will end up (most likely) preferring a counterpick stage that's in your favor for the characters you play.

Most people do not know how to play on CP stages properly. Abuse this correctly and you can often win matches you wouldn't have otherwise. I do it all the time.

This so much. So many people I play just CP a neutral, when their character is amazing on a CP my character is meh at. The only CP I don't really play is Japes, but all of the others I'm pretty comfortable on, and I realize that my character excels on too (Diddy is pretty amazing on Castle Siege, and against some characters, Norfair and Brinstar).

In general, people don't think enough about counterpicking. It's not just, "Which neutral is my opponent bad at," it's thinking about how your opponent plays, and where you'd have an advantage over their playstyle. And sometimes, a random stage like Pictochat is your best bet.

 

[BMunich16]

****ing gimmick

Seriously, all neutrals and only neutrals should be allowed. BF,FD,Smashville focus on using the character's attributes to win.

What fun is that?

 

[CR4SH]

Nothing to do with this arument but:
1) If we only played FD DK would never be played as Falco would destroy him
2) If only neutrals were picked Metaknight would become more of a problem

1)Diddy Kong R-R-R-R-***** falco on FD.
2)No.

There's a reason why smashville is called neutral. Its because it doesn't tip the scales nearly as much as a lot of the counterpicks. So um yeah, of course it's different when I pick smashville. No elements get in the way.

Calling any stage "Neutral" is an absolute misconception. If you look at the rule list they aren't called neutrals, they're called starters. They generally happen to be the stages where no one character, or no specific matchup, is gamebreakingly one sided. But if you're looking for the stages that have the highest number of "neutral" matchups, you should absolutely not be looking at the starters. Most of them (FD and BF most specifically) favor one half of the cast heavily (in other words, they're not neutral). But thats why you have stage striking, it lets both players play a on a stage that doesn't wreck their character.

Most counterpicks are generally VERY neutral stages, that have certain matchups that weigh heavily one way or another. Pirate ship is a startlingly neutral environment for the majority of the cast in the majority of matchups, very unlike FD BF SV etc. However it has hilarious matchups for specific characters (Ness and Ike most notably). You simply CANNOT beat a good ness or ike on PS with the majority of the cast. But thats what bans are for.

If you get killed by the stage, it's your own fault. If you get ***** on a CP, you should have banned it. But don't assume the system would be better if all we had was random "neutrals". SV, BF, FD on random would gay you a million times more often, you maybe just don't realize that.

 

[Kamikaze*]

What fun is that?

Winning because you how to shield, roll, and attack smartly instead of throwing people into the lava

 

[fkacyan]

Water camping on Pirate Ship

... Allowed a player who got 3-stocked by M2k round one to almost beat him round two.

 

[Ismael]

Kamikaze, if you used a character other than Metaknight, I'm sure you'd know just how important CP is. An example would be beating a Ganondorf on Final Destination. That dosn't mean you have more skill, just your using a better character. Hence why you got ***** when he CPed Pirate Ship.

It gives people with worse characters atleast a chance. Just like some characters have bad matchups, there are stages to help that bad matchup.

If it was only nuetral stages, then stages wouldn't matter, and people would just constantly CP characters against eachother. Which would be boring if it only mattered to which character had the best matchups. Sure, skill in your character matters, but that gets ruined if your a pro and yet you get beaten because a mediocre Diddy's bananas are annoying on Final Destination.

If i get beaten by a good Diddy on Final Destination with my Mario, I'll take him to Norfair, since it ruins Diddy's banana game. If he was smart and banned it, I'd switch from wrecking Diddy's game to helping my game and probably pick Battlefield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_MyzLnOat8&feature=related

 

[illinialex24]

I got D-throwed by Kirby into the croc. It may be some skill but its not fair if your D-throw onstage into a perfect spike.

 

[rocklee10]

I agree with most of this, though some stages are skill and others are cheap. If you can set up your opponent for a crock spike on Japes, that takes lots of skill, but (I love doing this) if on Norfair you throw your opponent into the wall of lava that stays their for like 15 seconds, thats cheap, that just adds 10%+ damage to your already damage giving throw.

 

[Kamikaze*]

I agree with most of this, though some stages are skill and others are cheap. If you can set up your opponent for a crock spike on Japes, that takes lots of skill, but (I love doing this) if on Norfair you throw your opponent into the wall of lava that stays their for like 15 seconds, thats cheap, that just adds 10%+ damage to your already damage giving throw.

If anything the croc is more cheap because it's a one hit KO.

 

[AvaricePanda]

If i get beaten by a good Diddy on Final Destination with my Mario, I'll take him to Norfair, since it ruins Diddy's banana game. If he was smart and banned it, I'd switch from wrecking Diddy's game to helping my game and probably pick Battlefield.

You'd actually be in for a bit of surprise, because Norfair comes nowhere close to wrecking Diddy's game. The only thing Norfair has that detriments his game is the lack of a long flat stage for long banana locking...but that's it, really. Diddy's banana game isn't that much worse on Norfair, and he gets a bit of buffs on the stage too.

related: It depends, really. The idea of having an only neutral stage list is absurd. Smash isn't like other fighting games. We have stage counterpicks for a reason; to help with certain match-ups and characters. Don't compare Brawl to like, Street Fighter in terms of stages.

As far as adapting to a stage, if you're concentrating too hard on a stage and its hazards, it should be banned. Stages like WarioWare or Shadow Moses where you constantly have to make sure to not get in a bad situation are banned because of this. Stages that tremendously buff a character while hindering others are banned. This is why Shadow Moses, Eldin, Mario Circuit are banned (re: walk-offs).

Technically, you can avoid dying that way, but it's really difficult. Instead of focusing on fighting the other person like in a normal match, you're focusing on not getting grabbed so you don't get infinited with the permanent wall or get walk-off CGd.

Some stages hazards are easily avoidable. Norfair, for instance. The rising, side, and entire map lavas are all incredibly slow, like Brinstar. They're easy to see coming and easily avoidable without having to adjust your playstyle too much, and they only last a couple of seconds. Plus, the stage lay-out is completely different than any existing stage.

Or Luigi's Mansion, where the lay-out is completely different and there honestly isn't any reason to ban. The only reasons I've heard is that you can stall on Mansion (which really isn't possible, either just chase or destroy the mansion), and the longer matches might run the tournament into overtime (which is stupid, because as a TO you're supposed to plan as if every match was going to run to it's max amount).

Japes is debatable. In terms of simply adjusting to the environment, it's pretty insane. Fighting your opponent while making sure that every 10 seconds, you aren't near the ledge or in a position where you can get pushed offstage into a klaptrap is....yeah. To some, that's too much, and to some, the stage is fine.

Stage adaptation to a stage like Rainbow Cruise or Norfair is perfectly fine, because it's not hard and doesn't take like any effort (unless you aren't looking at the screen, in which case you'd lose anyway, then avoiding Norfair's lava is insanely easy). Stage adaptation to a stage like Japes or Pirate Ship is very questionable (some people would ban questionable, some people would allow it). Stage adaptation to a stage like WarioWare or Shadow Moses Island...lol, that's just a gimmick.

 

[ParadoxJuice]

If you have skill, you can dodge stage hazards just fine. Name one stage hazard that you can't dodge with skill.

If you have skill, you can force your opponent to doom by a stage hazard. Name one stage hazard that you can't get an opponent into with skill.

If you have skill, you can stop your opponent from killing you with a stage hazard. Name one stage hazard that you can't avoid having your opponent obliterated with by skill.

These stage hazards don't randomly give advantages to a certain player. With skill you can doge and take advantage of them all. Name one that you can't do this with.

 

[CR4SH]

Avarice panda, I agree with you on most everything, however. IMO Luigi's mansion is debatable for ban, considering how many characters have STUPID shenanigans on that stage (MK, Oli), and Japes is definetly not. Considering the only thing remotely gay on japes is the claptraps, and they're very easily timed.

... Allowed a player who got 3-stocked by M2k round one to almost beat him round two.

Why in the world didn't M2K ban that stage? Also, "almost".

 

[Kamikaze*]

Considering the only thing remotely gay on japes is the claptraps, and they're very easily timed.


.

If they're so easily timed, then why do people fall into it? Simply because they have so much focus on their opponent and not the stage. That's what a fighter should be like.

 

[Kain6th]

If they're so easily timed, then why do people fall into it? Simply because they have so much focus on their opponent and not the stage. That's what a fighter should be like.

According to who? you? Fighter's need to know their environment neutral or not.

Answer me this Kamikaze, do you play Street Fighter Marvel vs Capcom II, Tekken, etc. competitively?

 

[chandy]

It's a gimmick :/. The places where you're going to get the best brawls are FD, BF, SV and Yoshi's Island. Any other place is going to get on one player's nerves and is a Bad place to play competetively. Why would you want to give the loser the advantage anyway. If they end up winning because of a counterpick stage it's stupid coz it doesn't show that the player has more skill, he just was given an unfair advantage. If we only played in neutral stages competetive play would be a lot more fair. Sure in friendlies counterpicks are fun but the winner isn't necassarily the person who played better

 

[Kamikaze*]

It's a gimmick :/. The places where you're going to get the best brawls are FD, BF, SV and Yoshi's Island. Any other place is going to get on one player's nerves and is a Bad place to play competetively. Why would you want to give the loser the advantage anyway. If they end up winning because of a counterpick stage it's stupid coz it doesn't show that the player has more skill, he just was given an unfair advantage. If we only played in neutral stages competetive play would be a lot more fair. Sure in friendlies counterpicks are fun but the winner isn't necassarily the person who played better

Finally, someone with sense

 

[deepseadiva]

Why would you want to give the loser the advantage anyway.

Because the winner of the first match got an unfair advantage.

If the first match ended up as IC's vs Ganondorf on Final Destination I wouldn't call it fair - I'd say the IC's got lucky with a stage advantage. So let's give Ganondorf a chance to have an advantage with a choice of stage on the second match.

The third match is the "tie-breaker" and the one with better skill wins.

I hope everyone saw that.

Ultimately, the player with better skill wins.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Because the winner of the first match got an unfair advantage.

If the first match ended up as IC's vs Ganondorf on Final Destination I wouldn't call it fair - I'd say the IC's got lucky with a stage advantage. So let's give Ganondorf a chance to have an advantage with a choice of stage on the second match.

The third match is the "tie-breaker" and the one with better skill wins.

I hope everyone saw that.

Ultimately, the player with better skill wins.

FD is flat with nothing in the way like other fighters. Don'tcha think that IC was probably MEANT to demolish ganny?

 

[deepseadiva]

FD is flat with nothing in the way like other fighters.

Two points there:

1) "Flat with nothing in the way" is a pretty powerful stage influence. "Nothing in the way" is actually a lot in the way for many characters. Think of poor Ganondorf, Donkey Kong, and Meta Knight.

2) Brawl is not like other fighters. Never will, and never has. Whether it's FD or Wario Ware - the stage ALWAYS influences the match. There is never a neutral stage.

Don'tcha think that IC was probably MEANT to demolish ganny?

Switch the word "Ganondorf" with any character not MK/Peach/Jigglypuff/whatever.

 

[bobson]

FD is flat with nothing in the way like other fighters. Don'tcha think that IC was probably MEANT to demolish ganny?

Don'tcha think the game was probably MEANT to have the stages it has?

 

[chandy]

Because the winner of the first match got an unfair advantage.

If the first match ended up as IC's vs Ganondorf on Final Destination I wouldn't call it fair - I'd say the IC's got lucky with a stage advantage. So let's give Ganondorf a chance to have an advantage with a choice of stage on the second match.

The third match is the "tie-breaker" and the one with better skill wins.

I hope everyone saw that.

Ultimately, the player with better skill wins.

No stage is completely fair but the neutrals are the fairest and don't change match ups too much. Firstly what are the chances that the ganon would be able to beat an ice climbers who could chain grab anyway. Being on FD doesn't change much which is why it is called a neutral. If you want a change in stage just use one of the other 4 neutral stages rather than a counterpick which gives a player an unfair advantage.

Don'tcha think the game was probably MEANT to have the stages it has?

If that's your view, why ban stages at all? The banned stages were made in brawl so why can't we play on them? Because they give some characters an unfair advantage and playing on neutrals reduces those advantages to a bare minimum. If you use counterpicks that unfair advantage is more present...