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Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 14 - Palutena - Lasers Seem Like Overkill

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Welcome to the Palutena matchup discussion.

Falco and Palutena.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from "I will quickscope you." - Palutena's Frame Data & Hitboxes thread by @Aeralfos and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames|:4falco:|:4palutena:
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|8-10, (infinite), (finisher)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|6-9 or 10-17
Ftilt|6-8|17-39
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|10-38, 40-41
Dtilt|7-9|14-24
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|18-19 or 20-25 (windbox?) or 26-31 (windbox?)
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|18-26
Down Smash|7-9|17-17 or 18-19 or 20-27 (windbox?)
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|5-27, 31-32
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|9-11
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|8-10
Uair|7-11|8-23, 25-26
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|10-10
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11
 
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Macchiato

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Ok, this match is worst than the one with Zelda, Palutena is faster and has a better grab. She also can make falco approach due to having a GOOD projectile. Palutena has a super safe fair which autocancels and has lots of range and is disjointed. Her ftilt stops the phantasm, lol her tilt has a use. His lasers are useless due to her having the best reflector in the entire game. She basically stops all his options with fair. Her jab is the best in the game. it cancels into anything. Falco has to punish every mistake she makes. He can't gimp her either while she can gimp him, killing is something she struggles with while falco doesn't. She can get a kill early but its hard to get. All falco has to do is DI her dthrow because he main killing option is dthrow to uair. She has to get reads with her smashes. I wouldn't stay at the ledge much either, Bthrow kills falco at like 130%. I'd say the MU is a clean 70-30 Pally
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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By the way, Palutena's along with Ganondorf and Mario's (redux) discussions will include take customs and default into account much more heavily. So, you can split this up or combine them.
 

Macchiato

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Palutena with customs
Just what I said but with more pressure and speed. Super speed isn't a problem, just like shoot a laser to stop it.
But she gets a unblockable projectile and a thing that lets her get easy kills at 60%
80-20.

oh poor falco
 

Ffamran

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Well, I messed up the titles thread two times; they were all related to Pit and not Pally. Well, hope this one works...
 

NotAnAdmin

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Jun 21, 2014
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I don't know too much about Palu other than her "hoo-haa".

I will say she does have pretty good tilts and her jabs are fairly quick and can easilly jab into grab like Falco has his jab or dtilt into grab.
I'm probably wrong, but I think her smash attacks aren't very good, way too much endlag, but they are pretty powerful. Especially her up-smash. Sakurai really gave Palu good anti-airs.
Falco can't make her approach due to auto-reticle bopping him constantly.

I agree with Macchiato that it's in her favour but it's not that severe, more 60-40.
 

Wintropy

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Okay, I'm not that well versed in the art of Falco, but I'll share what I know about Palutena and hope it helps. I'll be discussing this with reference to her default moveset, since that's the set I'm most comfortable with.

In a nutshell, Palutena's a mixed bag overall. Her movement speed is phenomenal, her smashes are incredibly potent, her anti-air game is tremendous and her jab is a sublime setup tool - but she's also light, has immense lag on most of our moves, has to setup before getting the kill and has a very hit 'n' miss selection of specials. So we want to play up to Palutena's strengths whilst mitigating her weaknesses.

Palutena will, by her very definition, try to space you and set you up for a powerful hit. She can't just rush in and expect to win by default: she has to bide her time, watch your moves and react cautiously. Palutena thrives on mindgames and keeping you at arm's length, and since her moves are powerful but slow, she'll more often than not play carefully and defensively. You'll want to respect her space and keep an eye out for her moves; they all have pretty obvious startup animations and can be easily shielded or spotdodged if your're careful. Palutena's immensely slow hits are her constant bugbear, and something she needs to work hard to make the best of.

Palutena's got a few combos that she can use, probably the most notorious being the "divine hoo-hah": jab -> grab -> d-throw -> u-air. This can juggle for days and kills at high percents. Even if you don't DI out of it, you can airdodge it for the most part - take heed, though, as a good Palutena will watch out for this and wait until you're out of airdodge animation to u-air. Even if she doesn't throw first, it's a powerful anti-air and can catch you from below as you come down. If she can't hit with u-air, her n-air is a useful spacing tool (though it has to hit with the last frame to be of any real use), as is her f-air, and her b-air is a KO move with absolute priority and invincibility frames. D-air is pretty much useless, you'll seldom ever see it. Just try not to get caught in the air, she will catch you out and she will punish you for it.

Punishment is Palutena's bread 'n' butter. Basically any time she sees an opening, she'll exploit it or use it to her advantage. We in particular love excessive shielding (free grab!), attacks that are unsafe on shield (shieldgrab!), poor spacing (jab that!) and projectiles (if it's default set - yay reflect!). Your lasers aren't much use her, as we can just reflect them back or shield them as they come to us. Likewise, any move that we can shieldgrab, we will. Pretty much any time a grab is the optimal approach, we'll go for it. If you're within grabbing range, be wary. Our jab puts you in stunlock and allows for a grab (at low-mid percents) or, depending on DI, a u-smash (at high percents). Her jab is arguably her most powerful tool, based on potential follow-ups, and it is quite deadly if used correctly. We will almost always use single-jab rather than multi-jab, as it's the stunlock setup that's so good about it. Respect her space and don't let her get into yours.

Palutena has a number of KO options beside u-air, of course: her smashes are especially potent, but they require either huge setup or very careful timing. Hitting with an empty smash is a terrible idea for Palutena, as the endlag means she's wide open for any kind of punishment you choose. So we'll read your moves and, if we notice patterns or predictable tactics, will punish accordingly - u-smash in particular is a deadly KO tool, and it's strongest at the base. There have been many times when I've punished an unwary Falco's aerial side-b with a well-timed u-smash. She's also got a powerful dash attack that has short range and a lot of endlag, but which can KO at high percents and, like her b-air, has absolute priority and invincibility frames. You'll need to be conscious of your own moves and be wary of doing anything that can lead to her swooping in for the kill. She'll play to her strengths and make sure she's got optimal spacing to catch you and kill you.

Somebody mentioned Palutena has good tilts. Except for her d-tilt, they're all awful - slow and too much lag for what they do. Her d-tilt is a decent spacing tool, but more often than not, you'll see her jab instead. D-tilt is useful as a mix-up but not much else. Her smashes and aerials are vastly superior overall.

In short: space, pace, grab and kill. Falco is slower than a lot of characters, and this allows Palutena some breathing room - she can pace herself and space you if you're not in her face, and she'll do her best to keep you at arm's length with her spacing tools before getting her niche in for the kill. I think this matchup is in Palutena's favour, but not by a huge amount. I'm inclined to agree, based on my rather limited experience, that this is very slightly a good matchup for Palutena.

:4palutena: 60 : 40 :4falco:
 

Djent

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:4falco:'s FTilt has great reach and comes out on Frame 6, which is faster than any grounded option :4palutena: has in the neutral state (her Jab and Grab are both Frame 7). I think that's notable. Her airspeed is also bad outside of Lightweight (comparable to yours), so that's something as well.
 

Beach

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Overall she out spaces us pretty well, and has a teleport so gimping is almost out of the picture. We have quick tilts and our jab and Shine over her ground game however, so if anything that's what we should be trying to overtake her on.

:4palutena:60:40:4falco:
 

meleebrawler

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At least lasers are still good enough to discourage Super Speed. One laser hit in the middle
of it and boom; no Super Speed for five seconds.
 

Legato

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I disagree with the trend of this MU discussion. Palutena can out-space falco; however, it is very easy to shut down her options. You can use reflector as an occasional spacing tool which forces her into a guessing game mindset. Falco can easily vary approaches between grabs, lasers, reflector, bair, uair, and even phantasm.

I have never had an issue with Palutena, she just requires a bit of patience and good spacing with running shield. She has a poor grab game and is easy to punish as long as you space your shielding well then there should be no problems with this match-up. I usually just imagine a bubble around falco just outside of her range and harass with lasers. The most she can do for movement when cornered that is most viable is rolling, and it isn't that hard to get her in this position then shut down most of her options. Also, I'm pretty sure reflector isn't stopped by her down-b (confirm anyone?). I'm curious to see what others have to say with this MU.

I'd say 60-50 in Falco's favor.
 

meleebrawler

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I disagree with the trend of this MU discussion. Palutena can out-space falco; however, it is very easy to shut down her options. You can use reflector as an occasional spacing tool which forces her into a guessing game mindset. Falco can easily vary approaches between grabs, lasers, reflector, bair, uair, and even phantasm.

I have never had an issue with Palutena, she just requires a bit of patience and good spacing with running shield. She has a poor grab game and is easy to punish as long as you space your shielding well then there should be no problems with this match-up. I usually just imagine a bubble around falco just outside of her range and harass with lasers. The most she can do for movement when cornered that is most viable is rolling, and it isn't that hard to get her in this position then shut down most of her options. Also, I'm pretty sure reflector isn't stopped by her down-b (confirm anyone?). I'm curious to see what others have to say with this MU.

I'd say 60-50 in Falco's favor.
By poor grab game, you mean in terms of actually getting the grab? Rage hampers her Dthrows
combo potential, but then she gets rage Bthrow kills and she can always use Uthrow in a pinch;
it may send people too high for real followups, but Palutena has the ground speed to pursue a falling Falco.

Also you're underestimating Warp as an escape tool, it's more than adequate against the slow-moving
Falco unless he predicts it.

Oh, and don't even try to phantasm past Palutena on recovery or too much in general unless you have phase,
because she can Usmash you out of it with ease.
 

MoosyDoosy

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I disagree with the trend of this MU discussion. Palutena can out-space falco; however, it is very easy to shut down her options. You can use reflector as an occasional spacing tool which forces her into a guessing game mindset. Falco can easily vary approaches between grabs, lasers, reflector, bair, uair, and even phantasm.


I have never had an issue with Palutena, she just requires a bit of patience and good spacing with running shield. She has a poor grab game and is easy to punish as long as you space your shielding well then there should be no problems with this match-up. I usually just imagine a bubble around falco just outside of her range and harass with lasers. The most she can do for movement when cornered that is most viable is rolling, and it isn't that hard to get her in this position then shut down most of her options. Also, I'm pretty sure reflector isn't stopped by her down-b (confirm anyone?). I'm curious to see what others have to say with this MU.


I'd say 60-50 in Falco's favor.
60+50=110


I personally don't find Palutena a struggle. One thing I notice is that most Palutena players have a spacing rhythm between jabs, aerials, and some pokes with Dtilt or Jab but nothing else since so much of her game revolves around punishing active opponents and exploiting an opportunity after an overcommitment and get snagged by a spacing move. A lot of her moves are also super laggy and this is kinda where the rhythm kicks in where Palutenas try and minimize the lag with good floats when using aerials. I find it really effective to punish Palutena's doing this with a laser or Reflector and even RAR Bairs. On the other hand, once Palutena gets a hit in, Falco starts to get destroyed and she has all the necessary tools to beat Falco.

The thing is you can't rate this matchup 55:45 in Palutena's favor since Falco has to be a LOT more careful around Palutena than the other way around so I would give it a 60:40 although the advantage isn't as large as that.
 

Gamegenie222

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LOL you nerds. I would love to play the Palutena MU against one of you nerds to grind this MU out cause I always felt this MU was evenish but I would love to be proven wrong.
 

Wintropy

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LOL you nerds. I would love to play the Palutena MU against one of you nerds to grind this MU out cause I always felt this MU was evenish but I would love to be proven wrong.
I'd be up for it, if you'd like to PM me and arrange a time.

Always happy to help a fellow Smasher, y'know? :3

But yeah, as I said, I have very limited knowledge of this matchup. I know that Fox is a very difficult matchup, due to his speed and combo potential, but Falco feels like we can afford to take our time a bit more with it. We're not on constant alert as we are with Fox, and the fact that he can't spam his lasers like there's no tomorrow is a huge plus.

And yes, as previously stated, Phantasming into Palutena is a bad idea. The amount of times I've KO'd Falco using that move with a well-timed u-smash is pretty staggering.
 

Legato

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@ Ffamran Ffamran Hehe, sorry I wrote the post very quickly this morning. Yes I do mean 60/40 in Falco's favor. I suggest this mostly because I have never really had any problems against Palutena, maybe I just need to play more skilled ones though.

By poor grab game, i do mean it is hard for Palutena to get a grab against a well spaced Falco. Basically, just shield tactfully. If you manage an air dodge on a whiffed grab, then a d-tilt--->fair is a good follow-up. I wouldn't underestimate phantasm, as I have used it as a reaction to whiffed attacks (I certainly wouldn't use it off stage, that'd be silly). Phantasm is not something to just throw out, but it isn't bad either if you know how to condition an opponent well. I have not been thoroughly punished by a Palutena for a well placed phantasm, but I am willing to play you guys and see if I'm wrong.

@ MoosyDoosy MoosyDoosy I have not had a problem catching Palutena out of her warp, I'd probably have to see how you use it to determine if there is a proper spacing that allows me to react to it. Of course, a laser is always an option to me if I can't catch up.

It seems to me that a patient Falco has a distinct advantage since I would argue his shielding is hard for Palutena to punish. My curiosity is piqued though by the confidence of these Palutena mains and I'm kind of excited to see what you all can do. I'd like to play you guys and see what you mean :D add me and we'll figure out a time to do this.
 
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Zionaze

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maybe Im going for hard reads but my playstyle baits for phantasm punishes so the USmash punish to me seems unlikely. Also the biggest difference between zeldas and palus warp is that hers has no hitbox. also it doesnt go as far. getting a quick punish isnt impossible. Id say 55-45 in favor of paly with customs 50-50 normally
 

Ffamran

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We've got videos on MUs now. :p
Palutena vs. Falco - 6/4 Palutena because she has better options to kill at fairly low percents. Stronger combo tools, but Falco can definitely win this match with enough patience, observation and the right punishes.

Hope you enjoy it :)

 
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LightLV

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You lose on the ground, Falco's normals are really good but her jab pretty much kills that. Her B-air is invincible, dash attack is invincible. Her aerial movement is really good. Her Fair is really good.

Other than that, get a hit or grab, get her off the stage or in the air, and beat her ass. Go out for the edgeguard
 
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