Squirtle PM V3.5 Changes

[WizGalen]

What have they done to our poor hero???? His side-b can't change directions, I don't believe he can explode out of it either. Anyone else annoyed by the changes made in the update?

 

[Nakuri]

I was one of the people who hammered F5 in /r/ssspm/new and I think they did such an amazing job in giving Project M a true unique feeling and I'm so glad for their work. I was so hyped and extremely satisfied by the teased material, I think this to be a highlight of the year.

But what in the hell were they thinking by doing these changes to Squirtle? Why did I just turned off P:M with such a dissatisfaction that I want to not touch it again. I could understand if they took that versatility if Squirtle would have made a negative impact on the variety on tournament level, but he had no presence anyway.

I always had a BLAST playing Squirtle, I loved P:M because of Squirtle and I was so motivated to push the limits and see how far you can get in tournaments with him. He's so fun, you can do great mixups and play intelligently enough to give people a good challenge.

Why taking a good part of it? What's the intention? Why did the team think: "Squirtle should be less Squirtle." He's an unique character that surely goes in some aspects into the extreme, but not in an inbalanced way.

I'm okay with the nerf to the recovery, it's one of the large overhaul changes to the whole game that is needed very so. But that already makes it way more difficult since Squirtle is very light and has little reach. But I don't understand the rest of the changes.

 

[MrHazuki]

I'm furious. I guess I'll have to change main.

 

[KayB]

I'm less upset about not being able to change directions with squirtle and more confused as to why they took out Aqua Jet.

 

[turtletank]

I'm okay with the nerf to the recovery, it's one of the large overhaul changes to the whole game that is needed very so. But that already makes it way more difficult since Squirtle is very light and has little reach. But I don't understand the rest of the changes.

Doesn't feel like an outright nerf as his down-b gives more of a boost and he has better air mobility.

I'm less upset about not being able to change directions with squirtle and more confused as to why they took out Aqua Jet.

According to the patch notes it's still in, but it can only be activated on contact with the opponent. I can't seem to get it to activate either though.

 

[KayB]

According to the patch notes it's still in, but it can only be activated on contact with the opponent. I can't seem to get it to activate either though.

wat

 

[Daftatt]

HAHAHAHA! I love all the changes!

Especially the short hop height decrease, that's a big deal. More air mobility, wavedashing just feels smoother, withdraw finally isn't a stupid move! Shellshift can't be spammed anymore for spacing. Squirtle finally feels like a character with tools you have to use smartly, and not just a walking bag of gimmicks that you have to constantly out-cheese your opponent.

Aquajet is now a frame 1 kill move lol.

 

[MrAzureKun]

I'm so sad by the changes man, they took the most of what was squirtle and took it away.
Some people were having general discontent with Forward B which is why I can understand nerfing it a little bit but taking away the maneuverability on a mobile based character really makes me sad. Especially since it wasn't exactly an easy move to learn in the first place. I can't even count how many times I missed timing on something and ended up paying some serious consequences for it.

TLDR: Why'd they take the mobility away from a mobile character? That really makes me sad...

 

[Daftatt]

taking away the maneuverability on a mobile based character really makes me sad.

They didn't take any mobility away, you just have to actually think when you use withdraw now. And you know, actually aim it. And you know, not spam it.

uhhhh.... Something tells me you weren't playing squirtle right. Using withdraw as a movement option was always bad, and this change was made to stop that. Wavedashing, slingjumping. These are the tools you should be using for movement, not some armored incredibly fast hitbox that autocombos on hit and is safe on shield.

Squirtle is JUST as mobile as in 3.0, if not more because of the air-mobility and short hop buffs.

My main gripe with 3.5 is that they took out wallcling jump, but didn't make his walljump not suck.

EDIT: holy **** the new aquajet is sex such amazingly early kills out of up-air juggles

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Whoa wait they took out wallcling? Man, right as I was starting to learn how to use it.

 

[MrAzureKun]

Whoa wait they took out wallcling? Man, right as I was starting to learn how to use it.

Wall cling is there, he sais you can't jump out of wall cling but I'll test it out now and let you know what I find.

They didn't take any mobility away, you just have to actually think when you use withdraw now. And you know, actually aim it. And you know, not spam it.

Its possible but I could also argue that theres no one way to play a character. I enjoyed that I could fake someone out with withdraw, but now without the turn around I can't even get close to doing that. It just feels like an overtly useless move now. Also whats the timing on aquajet? I can't even get it down on a bowser in 1/4 speed.

 

[MrHazuki]

Daftatt seems like the kind of guy who laughs when you tell him a relative died.
That is pretty much what happened here. Squirtle died.

 

[MrAzureKun]

Daftatt seems like the kind of guy who laughs when you tell him a relative died.
That is pretty much what happened here. Squirtle died.

I wouldn't go that far, he still fights just the same, its just that now he has 2 useless moves. Neutral B and Forward B.

Also I still can't get the timing on aquajet. Or maybe I'm putting in the wrong input?

 

[turtletank]

wat

Read the patch notes, dude.

 

[MrAzureKun]

Read the patch notes, dude.

Have you been able to pull it off though?
Is it a 1 frame only move?

 

[Daftatt]

Its possible but I could also argue that theres no one way to play a character. I enjoyed that I could fake someone out with withdraw, but now without the turn around I can't even get close to doing that. It just feels like an overtly useless move now.

Oh yeah, useless for sure. Other than it still being an amazing, armored burst movement move that sends you on the same trajectory as your opponent, AKA a combo's wet dream. Other than that it's totally useless. You guys are making my sides hurt. ALSO IT'S STILL SAFE ON SHIELD.

 

[PlateProp]

I'm laughing so hard right now at this Amish gathering

 

[MrAzureKun]

armored burst movement move that sends you on the same trajectory as your opponent,
ALSO IT'S STILL SAFE ON SHIELD.

I understand that its got uses but the most of them amount to almost nothing compared to what he had before. And what he ahd before didn't do him too much good regardless. He wasn't played very often and he wasn't that good competitively.
It hurts to see that they took away one of the few things he had going for him.
With this big of a nerf they should have worked on the rest of his kit to make sure he wouldn't just disappear like olimars did back in 3.2
Maybe if bubble beam did a little more in terms of use against an opponent? like a more reliable semi spike would be nice.
Aside from that he has too little kill potential.
Up B is great no quarrels there.
Down throw is a little late on killing but decent enough
Forward air does the job if used correctly, but the range is so harsh that you need moves like F-Special to combo into it, which can be hard especially against someone with disjointed hitboxes.

I'm not saying that the his move is useless exactly, but the amount of good it does him is far too little to deal with the higher tier characters.

P.S. Would someone please tell me the timing on the aquajet? I'm almost convinced its a myth.

 

[PlateProp]

I understand that its got uses but the most of them amount to almost nothing compared to what he had before. And what he ahd before didn't do him too much good regardless. He wasn't played very often and he wasn't that good competitively.
It hurts to see that they took away one of the few things he had going for him.
With this big of a nerf they should have worked on the rest of his kit to make sure he wouldn't just disappear like olimars did back in 3.2
Maybe if bubble beam did a little more in terms of use against an opponent? like a more reliable semi spike would be nice.
Aside from that he has too little kill potential.
Up B is great no quarrels there.
Down throw is a little late on killing but decent enough
Forward air does the job if used correctly, but the range is so harsh that you need moves like F-Special to combo into it, which can be hard especially against someone with disjointed hitboxes.

I'm not saying that the his move is useless exactly, but the amount of good it does him is far too little to deal with the higher tier characters.

P.S. Would someone please tell me the timing on the aquajet? I'm almost convinced its a myth.

Squirtle is a MUCH better character, but only for the people that legitimately played him instead of withdrawing everywhere.

Also you have to hold b when you'ew next to someone

 

[Daftatt]

P.S. Would someone please tell me the timing on the aquajet? I'm almost convinced its a myth.

Frame 1 baby. Frame 1.

 

[MrAzureKun]

Frame 1 baby. Frame 1.

Frame 1 as in as soon as you make contact or frame 1 of the actual attack?
Also whats the input? B again? A like before?

 

[Gryvvin]

Frame 1 as in as soon as you make contact or frame 1 of the actual attack?
Also whats the input? B again? A like before?

You have to think of it like Jiggs' rest, start withdraw while basically inside the other player. Simply input your side B and hold the B.

 

[MrAzureKun]

You have to think of it like Jiggs' rest, you have to start withdraw while basically inside the other player then simply input your side B and hold the B.

Oh okay I thought it was how it used to be where you could proc it sometime during the shell spin.
Thanks I'll try it out.

 

[Shell]

Although I'm not a squirtle developer I believe Daftatt understood our intentions and has parsed the changes pretty well:

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2mecds/squirtle_35_changes_what_they_mean_going_forward/

 

[Gryvvin]

Frame 1 baby. Frame 1.

Wouldn't it technically be frame 6 in the end seeing as the game checks to see if you're in range on frame 5 of withdraw's start up... or am I just reading that wrong?

 

[cmart]

Wouldn't it technically be frame 6 in the end seeing as the game checks to see if you're in range on frame 5 of withdraw's start up... or am I just reading that wrong?

Correct

 

[Daftatt]

Correct

oh... still, that's so quick for what the move does.

 

[Gryvvin]

There's no denying that... Frame one might have been a tad abuse able but 6 is still a damn quick kill move.

 

[MrAzureKun]

Although I'm not a squirtle developer I believe Daftatt understood our intentions and has parsed the changes pretty well:

I did have a change of heart as I read it.
I guess other people abused withdraw? Oh well, now that I actually know how to use the new aquajet I'm feeling a bit more confident with squirtle. I wish there was a way to explain that a little more clearly.
Can't wait to get better at him.

 

[JCOnyx]

I don't quite understand why some think Squirtle just became insignificant with the Withdraw changes. It's really only the FSmash and Aqua Jet changes that don't sit well with me. All of my hydroplane FSmash tech and ledge canceling Aqua Jet shenanigans are gone for good.

If you guys ever consider giving the option back to him (Aqua Jet as a recovery I mean), I'd recommend limiting it in the same way you have now. Only allow people to Aqua Jet out of Withdraw if they hold down B, basically turning it into a Squirtle Illusion and they can't just do it whenever they please. That would have at least allowed us to keep our Aqua Jet tech intact.

Also, that wall cling nerf is really hard to swallow... If you don't use your second jump you can simply let go and accomplish the same thing as we used to by using your double jump, but I don't see any benefit in going to pillar stages that much anymore.

 

[moneyman]

The game has been out for less than a day. RELAX people. Remember when wavedashing was considered a gimmick when it was first discovered? Play some more and maybe we'll discover something awesome.

 

[MrHazuki]

I am really disgruntled by some people calling the old Withdraw too easy too use. These people never figured out how to use Withdraw in the first place. There was a lot more to it than mindlessly forcing your way into the opponent.
I'm most angry with the removal of the jump, because that was an incredibly intricate tool both for defensive and offensive purposes. The turnaround I could live without, even though it is going to feel very unnatural.
The developers just **** a large nugget on the coolest character in the game. Don't even attempt to make it look like a positive thing.

Yes, I am butthurt.

 

[MrAzureKun]

I am really disgruntled by some people calling the old Withdraw too easy too use. These people never figured out how to use Withdraw in the first place. There was a lot more to it than mindlessly forcing your way into the opponent.
I'm most angry with the removal of the jump, because that was an incredibly intricate tool both for defensive and offensive purposes. The turnaround I could live without, even though it is going to feel very unnatural.
The developers just **** a large nugget on the coolest character in the game. Don't even attempt to make it look like a positive thing.

Yes, I am butthurt.

I think you should calm down. no need to start blaming anyone.

 

[MrHazuki]

I am calm. No need to sedate me.

 

[Gryvvin]

I kinda dislike the removal of withdraw jump too but the reality is grounded unturned withdraw was the only part that really worked, when you get to a certain point you realize turn around is super punishable and the jump was only ever going to work on hard reads, while carrying significant risk. Squirtle's side B is a good mobility tool, but it's a good mobility tool on a character renown for his great mobility and only really gets use as a mid range punish on whiff or combo extender... neither of those aspects were nerfed... they simply removed a lot of the gimmicky stuff to prevent people getting bad habits, which IMHO is a good thing, even if it doesn't objectively improve the character at all.

 

[Warzenschwein]

*sigh* so much salt

Withdraw, the good ol' "imma rush into you and if you tech, I can still turnaround and hit you again". It was by far one of the most fun aspects about Squirtle and now it's gone..

And I couldn't give less ****s, I've already adapted and unDIed up-throw to aquajet ROCKS.

Seriously. And Aqua Gun is useless? Hah. Right.

I'm happy they reworked Din's Fire to make Zelda a less obnoxious character, having a less obnoxious Squirtle was the price we payed I guess.

 

[Cloudburst]

I am really disgruntled by some people calling the old Withdraw too easy too use. These people never figured out how to use Withdraw in the first place. There was a lot more to it than mindlessly forcing your way into the opponent.
I'm most angry with the removal of the jump, because that was an incredibly intricate tool both for defensive and offensive purposes. The turnaround I could live without, even though it is going to feel very unnatural.
The developers just **** a large nugget on the coolest character in the game. Don't even attempt to make it look like a positive thing.

Yes, I am butthurt.

Okay. While in withdraw, the game got simplified into 3 aspects - horizontal, vertical, and timing. The only defensive uses of withdraw in 3.02 were to horizontally escape, and to jump, then exit withdraw to be able to do things faster.

Offensively, it was a guessing game of stay grounded, shorthop, or full jump while in withdraw.

The turnaround was useful for techchasing, but the risk vs reward was too skewed. You didn't have to be good at reading your opponents' intentions.

I must contend that Withdraw was very useful, but in no way, shape, or form was it "an incredibly intricate tool for both defensive and offensive purposes." It was 3easy5us, guys.

We can be better.

Squad4lyfe

 

[MrHazuki]

The jump allowed Squirtle to get onto platforms and from platform to platform/ground in a pace he couldn't otherwise get. Since you could jump almost instantly you could mix it up in your approach in so many ways. To approach a falling opponent from below with Withdraw is not possible any more either and that was a really cool strat.
You could do very much with the jump, and to try to simplify it into being only three aspects is nothing more than a proof of how little of that move's potential you had mastered.

We could have been better, but they ruined it.

 

[Cloudburst]

First of all: There is no "mastering" of Withdraw. It is a simple move. The skill ceiling is quite low.

And can we move on from the ad hominem attacks? Lets discuss the ability. This is a forum, not a playground.

To the point:

Yes, jumping while in withdraw was useful. However, your point about withdraw being the fastest way to travel is incorrect. Consecutive wavedashing is faster. You can see that from 0:50 - 0:52, and from 1:16 - 1:21 in this video:

Withdraw was the easiest way to travel, if not even a bit lazy. I'm just saying it looks like the developers want high-level Squirtle play to incorporate more of his ATs and movement options, and less withdraw. Frankly,I don't think that's them taking a **** on Squirtle's chest.

 

[JCOnyx]

And that was someone who didn't know how to use all of Squirtle's hydroplane and shell sling tech. He actually moves even faster than that lol.