Spacing and tips with bowser

[Rags]

Hey I'm still relatively new to learning the smash scene, and I wanted to know any general tips with bowser. I know the basics like Up B OoS and CC, but that aside, I have trouble with getting my approach down and working on spacing with him. So I guess my questions are as follows:

What range should I work on keeping with bowser?
What are some good neutral options/moves/traps?
What type of playstyle would work best with Bowser?
What are some good combos I should work on with him?

and any other helpful bits of information would help too. If you guys have online on wii, I'd be up for playing also.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

- I would try to keep the opponent at a range where your jab barely hits, don't let him go any nearer. If you are on a platform you can drop->aerial so you can punish even from more range which forces them to attack from below or spacing at a higher distance.
For 2&3: In almost all matchups you want to anti-approach. Perfect shielding projectiles, keeping your ground and dash attacking (beats attack and approach) or grabbing (obv. beats shield, great range) as mixup.
- Bowser barely has combos, try up-throw-> fair/nair, jab 1 -> jab 2, up-tilt -> fair/nair though.

 

[Abeebo]

jab 1 combos into utilt very nicely as well, in addition to Side b and Up b. If the opponent doesn't know how to DI side b grab, then you can chain 2 or even 3 of them (with precise usage of DownB jump cancel) into an Uair. WORK ON YOUR LEDGE GAME NONSTOP. This is where Bowser shines. Fortress Hogging, recovery, Koopa Klaw ledge grab to whatever, Down B ledge grab, using all your aerials without dying, etc. FSMASH THE WORLD!

 

[Rags]

anti approach... I tried a few and did okay, but I it's kinda hard to do. Maybe I'm not doing it right. Or I just have to get used to the way smash works. Just unsure of what moves are good to deal with approaches. and against faster characters, I just get comboed for messing up. Just need more matchup experience I guess.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You should anti-approach in a non-commitive way, not jumping and not shielding unless they are throwing out hitboxes at you. Crouching is very good because Bowser has a great crouchcancel. D-tilt and f-tilt are your approach-catchers, up-tilt as anti-air, and up-B or jab as get-off-me move.

 

[Rags]

So don't be afraid to take a hit? When should I use f-tilt over d-tilt? I've always considered f-tilt as more of a kill move than anything.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah f-tilt is more like a rare choice but should still be thought off. You either way need steel nerves as Bowser, if you shield you will get grabbed and if you run away you are giving them space. Be confident to keep your ground and react when something happens

 

[Rags]

I see I see... I also notice I can kinda rushdown with him too. People surprisingly don't know how to handle the F/D-tilt and side B mixup. I'm finding side B to be really good up close too. Since it doubles as a grab and a normal hit with decent knockback.

 

[Abeebo]

Side B is a CRAZY move in general. As someone mentioned somewhere around here before, it's a grab that's also an attack that can beat other attacks as well as shields! Just not grabs When your opponent is succeeding in shielding your Fairs, throw in a Side B grab that they won't see coming.

 

[Rags]

So do you think something like working a *** 1 into side b would be possible, on reaction? and how does chaining side b into itself work?

 

[Abeebo]

It is possible if they're not prepared for it. Aside from the great properties, it still has a large start with a not-too-small window for the opponent to move or interrupt it with a jab or grab. Otherwise you'll either grab them or at least hit them away. Chain sideB's at low percents. If they DI away then you can't really chain them, but you can sometimes get two in there which is still massive damage. You may have to use your DownB jump cancels and b-reversals to reach the extra air grabs.

 

[Rags]

Explain the b reversals again? It's just when I his b and switch the side he's facing again, right?

 

[Abeebo]

I get the two types honestly confused, but you'll need both. There's a way to keep your forward momentum as you turn your b move around (direction, then B), and then there's the shift in momentum when you turn your b move around (B, then direction). I believe the latter is a B-reversal.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

This is true, the momentum +direction changer is the b-reversal

 

[Rags]

I don't think I learned how to do that one, I'll look it up

 

[CPU?]

If your opponent is getting really defensive at high percents your side-b back throw is a great kill move when positioned right and other wise it will throw them really far off stage for an easier edgeguard.
With that being said put a lot of work into getting precise at your edge guards. It's definitely one of Bowsers biggest strengths IMO.
a tip versus spacies: over-b into down smash is a guaranteed combo at 10% and lower, and can possibly follow up into a u-tilt into any arial. Which is a 0 up to 70% combo.

 

[Rags]

If your opponent is getting really defensive at high percents your side-b back throw is a great kill move when positioned right and other wise it will throw them really far off stage for an easier edgeguard.
With that being said put a lot of work into getting precise at your edge guards. It's definitely one of Bowsers biggest strengths IMO.
a tip versus spacies: over-b into down smash is a guaranteed combo at 10% and lower, and can possibly follow up into a u-tilt into any arial. Which is a 0 up to 70% combo.

Oh man that sounds NASTAY.. I gotta try that out.

Though I'm having trouble with sonic. Anyone have any tips for playing a sonic?

Only thing I found out is timing a down B against his side B is really good for killing, and if I can nail a side B at around 30-40%, I can followup with a down B for a guaranteed KO

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

From what I've done with the Koopa king, I found that the backwards hitbox on the up tilt (it reaches behind bowser) can be useful and worth learning/using. As for a follow up on edge-guarding tips, don't forget that bowser's amazing <100% getup attack also hits the ledge itself. Point of the story is that you can use this as a good edge-guarding tool. Food for thought.

Not that these tips are as useful or groundbreaking as the other, far superior tips previously mentioned, but I saw it as being worth mentioning.

 

[Matthew]

From what I've done with the Koopa king, I found that the backwards hitbox on the up tilt (it reaches behind bowser) can be useful and worth learning/using. As for a follow up on edge-guarding tips, don't forget that bowser's amazing <100% getup attack also hits the ledge itself. Point of the story is that you can use this as a good edge-guarding tool. Food for thought.

Not that these tips are as useful or groundbreaking as the other, far superior tips previously mentioned, but I saw it as being worth mentioning.

You guys should definitely listen to the >100 ledge attack tip from ImpossiblyRood. I works very well in edgeguarding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9NaIYFnVgY Go to 14:37

 

[Matthew]

I get the two types honestly confused, but you'll need both. There's a way to keep your forward momentum as you turn your b move around (direction, then B), and then there's the shift in momentum when you turn your b move around (B, then direction). I believe the latter is a B-reversal.

You must input the b move and allow the control stick to pass through the neutral position before you push it in the opposite direction. If you are b reversing a side special you don't really need to worry because it passes through the neutral position anyways. However I am not really sure what specials you can b reverse with Bowser because I have never tried it with him.

 

[Vic]

Since we're talking about edgeguarding, what's the best way to edgeguard against tether characters like link or samus?

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

Since we're talking about edgeguarding, what's the best way to edgeguard against tether characters like link or samus?

That is where the getup attack is even more stupid-good. Tether characters aren't invulnerable when they are being pulled towards the stage. So, just roll yourself up -> fortress hog ... rinse and repeat. When >100%, Then I recommend using dropdown bairs (this is risky though, since bowser's vertical recovery is subpar), or just grabbing ledge, let them do that little jump (it forces a little jump since two people can't occupy the same ledge) and punish with a ftilt or a shorthop fair. EZ game, Bowser lyfe.

 

[Vic]

I'll give it a whirl (eheh, get it? Yeah I'll leave now). Cheers mate!

 

[Frost | Odds]

Uh, make sure you only do that against slow tethers. Against fast ones like Lucas or (god forbid) Ivysaur, you have to hold the ledge until they hop it; at which point you can ledgehop fair.

 

[Matthew]

Oh man that sounds NASTAY.. I gotta try that out.

Though I'm having trouble with sonic. Anyone have any tips for playing a sonic?

Only thing I found out is timing a down B against his side B is really good for killing, and if I can nail a side B at around 30-40%, I can followup with a down B for a guaranteed KO

You should be able to crouch armor the spin dash and up-b out of it, however it may clank.

 

[Rags]

Yeah most times when I play sonic I just look for trades when he starts getting spinny/into his pressure. The best I can do especially online

 

[Matthew]

A very huge tip for Bowser players: when the enemy is above you, wait a moment before you cancel a down b into up air. If you wait a little bit, they will end up jumping into your up-air. You can also wait until they use their second jump and then go in for the up-air. This works surprisingly well, even on pro players. Works like 70% of the time for me. Hope this helps!

 

[Rags]

A very huge tip for Bowser players: when the enemy is above you, wait a moment before you cancel a down b into up air. If you wait a little bit, they will end up jumping into your up-air. You can also wait until they use their second jump and then go in for the up-air. This works surprisingly well, even on pro players. Works like 70% of the time for me. Hope this helps!

Do you have a video of what you mean? it's a little hard for me to picture

 

[Matthew]

Do you have a video of what you mean? it's a little hard for me to picture

I do not have a video, but a better way of explaining this is to overshoot the enemy with the up-air. So go higher than you think you need to with the up-air and the enemy will jump into it. You can also wait until they burn their second jump. I will try to post a video. Ignore the thing I said about waiting before the down b unless you want to wait until they use their second jump.

 

[Rags]

I see, well that makes sense now, I just think it'll be tough to do on reaction online. Since you have to adjust to the direction they're jumping, though it makes for a nice setup, if they jump towards your back you can Bair

 

[Rags]

Wait... I just had a thought. Can't bowser jump cancel his grab? Wouldn't that be preferable to a dashgrab? Also, what other moves can he jump cancel? And what's his other out of shield options ?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wait... I just had a thought. Can't bowser jump cancel his grab? Wouldn't that be preferable to a dashgrab?

Very rarely. You'll be punished just as hard for either, and the dash grab has WAY more range.

Also, what other moves can he jump cancel? And what's his other out of shield options ?

OOS options are basically upB, upB, upB, maybe upsmash if you're playing teams and something really janky is going on

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I also approve of dair oos, if it's safe enough. Keep in mind this happens rarely, but it can tack on some serious damage if you can get away with it.

If you're really trying to avoid upB oos (or are trying to stave off stale moves), try for a nair oos. It has some superarmor... which can be handy. Sometimes... I guess... Better off sticking to upB. That's some silly good oos option, right there.

 

[Matthew]

I see, well that makes sense now, I just think it'll be tough to do on reaction online. Since you have to adjust to the direction they're jumping, though it makes for a nice setup, if they jump towards your back you can Bair

Yeah, like 70% of people jump to try to avoid the down b to up air. Because of this, you just jump higher than you think you need to, and they will jump right into your up air. It is so good, I have taken people out at like 65% doing it. Also if you are on a stage with 3 platforms like Yoshi's story, you can koopa klaw headbutt-down b cancel-wait for their tech on the platform-then do a descending koopa klaw and headbutt them again, and if they do not DI away and then jump into your up-air, you can take opponents out at really early percents if you are playing on a low-ceiling stage.

 

[Matthew]

I also approve of dair oos, if it's safe enough. Keep in mind this happens rarely, but it can tack on some serious damage if you can get away with it.

If you're really trying to avoid upB oos (or are trying to stave off stale moves), try for a nair oos. It has some superarmor... which can be handy. Sometimes... I guess... Better off sticking to upB. That's some silly good oos option, right there.

Another reason Up-b is a really good oos option is because if you are playing on a stage like battlefield, you can up-b to a ledge from anywhere on the stage, so it makes punishment even more difficult.

 

[Matthew]

Wait... I just had a thought. Can't bowser jump cancel his grab? Wouldn't that be preferable to a dashgrab? Also, what other moves can he jump cancel? And what's his other out of shield options ?

You can try a mixup where you charge an up-smash out of shield (there is light armor when you charge up smash) and if you are lucky, you can hit with a charged up-smash if they do not pierce the armor.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

*slurp* That triple post. So delicious.

Also don't always be hellbent on getting downb -> upairs. The fair hits well above Bowser's head. Deceptively so, really. I've gotten many a surprise kill that way. If they're enough in hitstun or aren't trying to challenge your upair (if they're Mario/luigi/disjoint/etc), go for it, of course. If they are trying to fight you for the KO, jump up next to them and send them packing with the county fair.

 

[Matthew]

*slurp* That triple post. So delicious.

Also don't always be hellbent on getting downb -> upairs. The fair hits well above Bowser's head. Deceptively so, really. I've gotten many a surprise kill that way. If they're enough in hitstun or aren't trying to challenge your upair (if they're Mario/luigi/disjoint/etc), go for it, of course. If they are trying to fight you for the KO, jump up next to them and send them packing with the county fair.

Yeah, good point with the fair because the outer hitbox has more knockback and it can put the enemy in a position to be edgeguarded.

 

[FakeKraid]

Fair and Fortress are going to be your most central spacing tools, the former to make people scared to get too close and the latter to punish any unsafe approaches and break combos. The key with Bowser is to be responsive to your opponent's strategy because you have to act very differently depending on if they're camping or playing aggro. If your opponent is camping or zoning, use fair and other long-reach moves to keep your ground without exposing yourself while trying to bait opening. If your opponent is playing aggro you should use armor countering and Fortress to break their flee and set up punishes. And once you've intimidated your opponent a bit you can get a bit more aggro yourself using things like dair, side-B, and carefully placed tilts to apply pressure.

 

[Rags]

I see I see... Does your stratgey change when you play online? or do you have any videos I can watch of your matches?