Spacie Gimps [Discussion]

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Warning: This thread is UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Anything stated in this thread is up for discussion. I will update info as I learn more and get input from you guys.

Here is my current mindset during the gimping process:
As soon as I grab the spacie I have a fool proof plan for covering any option the spacie choose recovering back to stage. All I gotto do is watch him and act accordingly.
Every single time I back throw a spacie off the stage I run off the stage and FF DJ. This puts me in an advantegous position to cover more options but downgrades covering any Fox UpB. This is a tactical move that ensures I don't limit myself to a portion of the options and downright gives him free options to come back.
The only limit is my recognition and reaction ability.

I want to mention that there are huge possibilities for scaring your local spacie. What I mean is not from the actual gimps (that should be obvious), but more in the conditioning. Looking for every single option every time is hella hard. If you somehow can condition him to narrow his options this could be very beneficial.
For example follow up on the back throw with a standing needle two times in a row and saying out loud "now I am just gonna needle you!" (plant a wrong idea in his head that this is your standard follow up) Then you can be sure he choose a high or low option from then on. If the needle hit, the effect will be stronger.
Or WD back and take ledge twice "Get edge hogged". Then he will likely do the Illusion, the next time you back throw him.

The goal is to have the artillery to handle every single option though, and so here are the tools I use for:

-DJ Sweet Spot

-Illusion

• DJ back, Neutral or Forward into Illusion, with or without shortening (all covered with the same tool)

-Air Dodges

• DJ Diagonal Air dodge Onto Stage
• DJ Horizontal Air Dodge Onto Stage
• DJ Vertical Air Dodge Full Forward Drif Ledge Grab

-Firefox

• DJ UpB Directly to Ledge
• DJ or Emediate Diagonal UpB
• DJ or Emediate Neutral UpB (vertical)

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DJ Sweet Spot

You will need to intercept the DJ in your Run Off FF with a rising Nair.
Actually this goes for any DJ forward he chooses. If the spacie is quick he will UpB as soon as he is out of hitstun, yet he will be below stage level and so his options are reduced severely.
He has Diagonal UpB and Neutral UpB left. These options are described below.

DJ Illusion

• regular
• shortened
• sweetspotted

Regular
You will need to spot the Illusion start up animation and wait for the signature "Pling" sound and input Nair on this que. This will ensure you get the strong hit of Nair and so if you FF Lcancel you will be ready at ground before the spacie reach stage level.
As soon as you are out of Lcancel lag. You will want to stun the spacie again.
My personal choise is Dsmash vs. Fox and Double Jab vs. Falco.
You want to send Fox outwards in order to put him in an angle for SH Needle to hit, which has no landing lag so you can take Ledge asap after and intabible Bair him.
You want to send Falco straight down because you dont need to SH Needle him. As soon as the lag of the jab is over you run off FF and DJ Fair the Falco.

Shortened
In case the spacie shortens his Illusion you will simply hit him at ledge level after the FF before he grabs on to the Ledge. Your action is unchanged from regular Illusion since you already have a hitbox out from Nair to take care of the poor spacie.
If this is the case then you proceed straight to run off FF DJ Fair if it's Falco. If vs. Fox then simply wait at the Ledge, crouching and Dsmash his UpB. Proceed to SH Needle him and take the Ledge -> intangible Bair him.

Sweetspotted
Under construction

Air Dodges

• DJ Diagonal Air dodge Onto Stage
• DJ Horizontal Air Dodge Onto Stage
• DJ Vertical Air Dodge Full Forward Drif Ledge Grab

In every case Dsmash is the answer.
Every time he lands on the edge of the stage you want to be facing him and positioned behind him and Dsmash. It will send him right over the edge and reset the situation. Unless you have godly reaction he will land on the stage first thus regaining his DJ.
I am currently working on an a solution involving turning around (with a needle or after landing) and regrabbing.
This might be superior since the spacie regain his DJ anyway.
Dsmash outperforms regrab only if you can hit him before he reach the ground after the air dodge. This proves incredibly defficult and demands he does not FF after the air dodge.

UpB

• DJ UpB Directly to Ledge
• Emediate or DJ Diagonal UpB
• Emediate or DJ Neutral UpB (vertical)

If you can cover these then you can cover the rest of the finetuned angles.
One key element to master is knowing how long the start up animation before the spacie starts to fly is, which is 42 frames or roughly 2/3rds of a second. Then spot the angle he chose right when that animation ends!

As soon as he starts flying you know exactly where he is going to end up (plus minus Drift). In a sense like a tech chase.
In any case, in order to cover Illusion you need to Run off FF DJ onto stage emediatly.
You want to drift so you land right on the edge of the stage. Walk on so you reach Teeter or close. This is important if you want to cover one specific option. Then Crouch!
He has 3 air dodge options too and these are very important as more and more spacies are catching on to this option. Don't picnic because yes we can cover those too.

Any direction and length DJ into Firefox directly to the Ledge
This is by far the fastest Firefox option to handle.
Our only viable option here is Dsmash. Any other tool would be a part of a hard read.
Unfortunatly the spacie can tech it and gain wall jump options.
To make it harder to tech we need to do the Dsmash as far out as possible.
This is why you want to land at the edge of the stage after the run off FF DJ.
Since Dsmash has 1 frame of invincibility on the legs we need to time it right in order not to trade hits with the Firefox hitbox.
The cue to inputting the Dsmash is right as the spacie leaves the start up animation. This is a tight window.
In order to cover this consistantly we need to Dsmash regardless blindly.
I always crouch at the ledge in case I miss the Dsmash timing. You can CC Firefox to 60%

Emediate or any DJ length + drift into Neutral Firefox
Simply wait for the 92(Fox) / 84(Falco) frames (about 1.5 seconds) of Firefox to end.
As your Dsmash ends, do a long WD back. As he drops, recognize if he drifts while falling, then correct your position accordingly by walking, Dsmash him off and SH Needle him.
Note that if the Dsmash is too late and you hit him after he landed, he then gains the opportunity to tech the Dsmash by SDI'ing into the stage. The optimal solution is therefore to hit him before he lands.
Yes we can also Fair him as he drops, which also leads into a SH Needle. Make sure to hit him right above the ground with a late auto cancelled Fair.
We can also grab him out of the air and Forward Throw him off.
I personally think Fair is the best option and Dsmash is the easiest. Both have more knock back and hit stun than a forward throw.
We can also Grab Release the spacie if we grabbed him at the very edge. As we grabbed him out of the air from Firefox he only has one option and that is Firefox below the stage. And so we can simply handle that by doing a Run off emediat aerial DJ aerial.

UpB at 45 degrees (under construction)
First to be noted is that now the difference between Fox and Falco becomes relevant since their UpB has different lengths and so we need to talk about them seperately. The stage also has a saying on what to expect because platform heights.
For now I am almost biased towards saying that 45 degree Firefox to the platform is a "safe" way out for Fox to escape a gimp.

Fox

Fox will DJ early and emediate UpB to keep his options open. He will land on the platform.
So after your Dsmash ends you want to WL on that platform as quickly as you can and grab that fox.
We now have a Dthrow tech chase *sadface*

I would like heavy input on this option - I am having a hard time covering this keeping the gimp alive

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For anyone who is unsure what a gimp is here is a beautiful clip of our own Kirbykaze gimping Weon-X
(A Gimp is the act of throwing the enemy off the stage and gradually sinking him lower and lower until KO.
This can be done from 0%)

How do you approcah gimping spacies?
Is there some sort of flowchart that one can follow?
You got some neat personal touches that could spice up and inspire all of us?
Feel free to post any input on this topic

 

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Here is another example

 

[Jmook11]

A thing that M2K does alot is where he back throws a spacie of the stage, then jumps and needles him. Its really effective

 

[TRb]

So the fastest thing is the side-b. Its like the tech in place -- its what you should be looking for most readily. Then look for needle opportunities (I'd think)

Then if they are at high percents grab ledge and bair again and again. If they are at low percents you may have to go for the drop-jump nair or fair

 

[Scroll]

So the fastest thing is the side-b. Its like the tech in place -- its what you should be looking for most readily. Then look for needle opportunities (I'd think)

Then if they are at high percents grab ledge and bair again and again. If they are at low percents you may have to go for the drop-jump nair or fair

So you can actually cover the Illusion and still have time to cover Firefox.
How do you cover Firefox though? I think heard people mention Ftilt and Dsmash. Do we have other options?
Do we have time to turn and do a rising Bair? FJ Needle? Standing Needle?

Also,
I have seen Shroomed and M2K do this gimp where they back throw or forward throw a spacie (from about mid platform position) off the stage at maybe 30% and then emediatly dash jumps with a Nair off and then finish the spacie with a DJ Bair into or under the stage.

 

[TRb]

So you can actually cover the Illusion and still have time to cover Firefox.
How do you cover Firefox though? I think heard people mention Ftilt and Dsmash. Do we have other options?
Do we have time to turn and do a rising Bair? FJ Needle? Standing Needle?

Yeah to cover firefox it really depends on where they are.

If they are deep enough where they could only get the ledge then grab the ledge and roll up.

If they are deep enough where the can get ledge or on stage but really only have one angle then go down to that spot (in between them and the ledge) and put out nair. It'll trade, you go straight up and then you can recover, they can't.

If they are at a spot above the ledge then you can either go and try to swipe them before the FF comes out or your just in a mixup. They can either go to ledge (sweetspot) or on stage. This is a crap-shoot really, but know that spacies would rather hit the ledge probably, it looks the safest. So bias yourself towards that and see what you can do
Here is an example of that height -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8fukjoVhBI&t=335

 

[NastyNard]

If fox is below the stage, grabbing the edge, letting go, and then intercepting him with an invincible nair is really good. You can then land on stage and WD back to the edge and repeat the process until they can't get back or you see an opportunity to bair.

Also, I don't have enough posts to link it, but there's a amazing video showcasing 1001 M2K edgeguards which should be every sheik's bible.

 

[The Lemon]

Hmmm, the way KK edgeguards is very interesting here. Idk I never thought about edgeguarding as a flow chart before, so let's try to begin doing that now... I will list out some recovery options sorted by speed (so you know which one to try to cover initially and then also sort by relation to the stage (above, same, below).

And these are all for when a spacie is bthrowed at low-ish %.


Fast:
-DJ back side B above stage
-DJ back side B to edge
-DJ forward with an attack
-DJ forward air dodge on stage
-DJ to sweetspot edge


Slow:
-DJ back upB
-to sweetspot
-towards you
-diagonally up
-straight up

Slowest:
-DJ back> fall below stage> upB
-Drop down low> upB

That's about all I can think of as typical options. Will come back to this...

 

[Seal]

The chain (side b) is ridiculously easy to gimp a spacie with. It will either rack up hundreds of percent if you mess up or kill them if they do. Just make sure there is a small distance between you and the edge or their foxfire/firebird will burn ya. The only thing they can really do is air dodge, but they'd have to be almost frame perfect.

 

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Out dated info updated in top post!

Let's talk about the tools you need to cover all options and the flow chart of a successfull gimp.

Here I will talk about Fox DJ Illusion out of Back Throw

Besides standard positioning and attacks here are some helpful sequences/ tools (all these can be practiced on their own):
1. Run off FF DJ Nair onto stage
2. Run off Aerial (+DJ Aerial)
3. SH/FJ Needle -> turn -> WD back FF Ledge Grab*
4. (Invincible) Ledge Drop FF DJ Bair
5. (Invincible) Ledge Drop Bair onto stage
6. Walk/Dash SH/FJ Needle off stage DJ Fair

Flowchart
(assuming Fox is at 0% and grabbed near the ledge).

1.
Right away you have two options. You can pummel twice for a bit of damage or you can throw emediatly and possibly catch fox off guard and have him choose a sup par recovery option.

2.
Back Throw Fox.

3.
Emediatly do a Run off FF DJ Nair onto stage to cover a possible DJ Illusion.
While you do the Nair you recognize which recovery option Fox is choosing. If he indeed went for Illusion, then you will want to hit the poor Fox with the early/strong hitbox of Nair to pop him up slightly, in order for you to FF Lcancel and start your next attack before he falls to stage height. If he drops below stage height you can skip step 4.
If Fox went for any other option than Illusion then skip all of the following steps.
But from here you still have time to cover any other option, being DJ Air Dodge or any FireFox angle.

4.
You can here choose to use one or two jabs or Dsmash. Each option sends fox at different trajectories. Jab drops him straight down and Dsmash sends him outwards a bit.

5.
Now you can Run Off Aerial (aligned with Jab) or SH Needle him (aligned with Dsmah).

6.
Finish him!
Now you can DJ out of your aerial and pull his curtains with a second aerial. Or you can (from needle) WD back, grab ledge, drop down and end him from there.

 

[The Lemon]

Let's talk about the tools you need to cover all options and the flow chart of a successfull gimp.

Here I will talk about Fox DJ Illusion out of Back Throw

Besides standard positioning and attacks here are some helpful sequences/ tools (all these can be practiced on their own):
1. Run off FF DJ Nair onto stage
2. Run off Aerial (+DJ Aerial)
3. SH/FJ Needle -> turn -> WD back FF Ledge Grab*
4. (Invincible) Ledge Drop FF DJ Bair
5. (Invincible) Ledge Drop Bair onto stage
6. Walk/Dash SH/FJ Needle off stage DJ Fair

Flowchart
(assuming Fox is at 0% and grabbed near the ledge).

1.
Right away you have two options. You can pummel twice for a bit of damage or you can throw emediatly and possibly catch fox off guard and have him choose a sup par recovery option.

2.
Back Throw Fox.

3.
Emediatly do a Run off FF DJ Nair onto stage to cover a possible DJ Illusion.
While you do the Nair you recognize which recovery option Fox is choosing. If he indeed went for Illusion, then you will want to hit the poor Fox with the early/strong hitbox of Nair to pop him up slightly, in order for you to FF Lcancel and start your next attack before he falls to stage height. If he drops below stage height you can skip step 4.
If Fox went for any other option than Illusion then skip all of the following steps.
But from here you still have time to cover any other option, being DJ Air Dodge or any FireFox angle.

4.
You can here choose to use one or two jabs or Dsmash. Each option sends fox at different trajectories. Jab drops him straight down and Dsmash sends him outwards a bit.

5.
Now you can Run Off Aerial (aligned with Jab) or SH Needle him (aligned with Dsmah).

6.
Finish him!
Now you can DJ out of your aerial and pull his curtains with a second aerial. Or you can (from needle) WD back, grab ledge, drop down and end him from there.

Nice flow-chart! But does FF DJ Nair cover the DJ>sweet spot option? About how low do you usually FF before you DJ?

Edit: And what if they illusion>sweetspot?

 

[Scroll]

Nice flow-chart! But does FF DJ Nair cover the DJ>sweet spot option? About how low do you usually FF before you DJ?

Edit: And what if they illusion>sweetspot?

Do you mean a Shortened Illusion? Or an Illusion straight into the Ledge?
It has been a while since I saw a Shortened Illusion that was being Fast Falled. I am not even sure if it's possible to do so. But usually you will land before he drops to grab ledge. If this is the case, then a Jab or Dsmash should keep you in control.

If you meant the Illusion directly to ledge, then I believe the hitbox from the Run off DJ Nair FF Lcancel should hit him before he actually grabs ledge.

About the DJ height you simply want to FF for just a little bit before jumping. You deffinatly want your DJ to peak below platform height. I am gonna add this to the final post but you should start the Nair on the audielle que "Pling!!" Illusion creates.

 

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nothing to see here

 

[Scroll]

Out dated info updated in top post!

Alright, let's cover the Firefox angles. There are basically 3 options: Directly to Ledge, Up+In and Neutral (vertical). If you can cover these then you can cover the rest of the finetuned angles.
One key element to master is how long the start up animation before the spacie starts to fly is, which is 42 frames. About 2/3rds of a second. Then spot the angle he chose right when that animation ends!

If you try to knock the spacie out of the start up animation then you are, per definition, doing a hard read.
Neat options open up here, but let's discuss the guaranteed, reaction based coverage first, which is spotting what angle he chose and reacting to that.
As soon as he starts flying you know exactly where he is going to end up. In a sense like a tech chase.
In any case, in order the cover Illusion you need to Run off FF DJ Nair onto stage. You won't need the Nair if he doesn't Illusion, but you got time to cover Firefox regardless.
You want to drift so you land right on the edge of the stage. Walk on so you reach Teeter or close. This is important if you want to cover a specific option. Then Crouch!
He has 3 air dodge options too and these are very important as more and more spacies are catching on to this option. Don't picnic because yes we can cover those too.

Any direction and length DJ into Firefox directly to the Ledge:
This is by far the fastest Firefox option to handle.
Our only viable option here is Dsmash. Any other tool would be a part of a hard read.
Unfortunatly the spacie can tech it and gain wall jump options.
To make it harder to tech we need to do the Dsmash as far out as possible.
This is why you want to land at the edge of the stage after the run off FF DJ.
Since Dsmash has 1 frame of invincibility on the legs we need to time it right in order not to trade hits with the Firefox hitbox.
The cue to inputting the Dsmash is right as the spacie leaves the start up animation. This is a tight window.
In order to cover this consistantly we need to Dsmash regardless blindly.
I always crouch at the ledge in case I miss the Dsmash timing. You can CC Firefox to 60%

Emediate or any DJ length + drift into Neutral Firefox:
Simply wait for the 92(Fox) / 84(Falco) frames (about 1.5 seconds) of Firefox to end.
As your Dsmash ends, do a long WD back. As he drops, recognize if he drifts while falling, then correct your position accordingly by walking, Dsmash him off and SH Needle him.
Note that if the Dsmash is too late and you hit him after he landed, he then gains the opportunity to tech the Dsmash by SDI'ing into the stage. The optimal solution is therefore to hit him before he lands.
Yes we can also Fair him as he drops, which also leads into a SH Needle. Make sure to hit him right above the ground with a late auto cancelled Fair.
We can also grab him out of the air and Forward Throw him off.
I personally think Fair is the best option and Dsmash is the easiest. Both have more knock back and hit stun than a forward throw.
We can also Grab Release the spacie if we grabbed him at the very edge. As we grabbed him out of the air from Firefox he only has one option and that is Firefox below the stage. And so we can simply handle that by doing a Run off emediat aerial DJ aerial.

 

[Comet7]

I think you could also time a nair to cover the ledge and directly toward the stage. Then you just have to worry about the spacie going up, and you can proceed to combo him to death or get him off stage again.

 

[Arrestme]

I think you could also time a nair to cover the ledge and directly toward the stage. Then you just have to worry about the spacie going up, and you can proceed to combo him to death or get him off stage again.

I suppose after the first throw off edge, u know where how far he'll sink before he needs to jump at the very least to side b right horizontal with edge...if u know the speed at which u can get to your lowest point after running off / fast falling, you can sync both his & your jump button presses and have better chance for the perfect nair timing. You'll prob also scare the **** out of him if he wanted to side b.

p.s. not completely out of my league, & another genius thread. btw best sheik vid i've seen in a while is that leffen vs ice. wow


:edit: also one favorite gimp starter I've seen M2k do and tried mimicking, is smartest thing i've ever seen. Both under a far platform, m2k upthrows falco, Fal techs, then m2k uairs, and gets on the platform with him. Dunno if he does another dthrow here, but it's where the magic happens: slowly pressuring falco out, he does 1 ftilt, another ftilt, with falc going up in hitstun, he follows up with a full jump so his and falcs heights will peak around same time, on way up lets out a Bair front legging him, not back. Giving falc more hitstun & now drifting down & off stage. Bcuz he syned his bair jump height with where he saw falco heading, it let him follow falcs drift and fair him out perfectly once his bair was done, all in same jump if u caught that.

 

[Scroll]

Out dated info updated in top post!

UpB at 45 degrees (under construction)

First to be noted is that now the difference between Fox and Falco becomes relevant since their UpB has different lengths and so we need to talk about them seperately. The stage also has a saying on what to expect because platform heights.
For now I am almost biased towards saying that 45 degree Firefox to the platform is a "safe" way out for Fox to escape a gimp.

Fox

Fox will DJ early and emediate UpB to keep his options open. He will land on the platform.
So after your Dsmash ends you want to WL on that platform as quickly as you can and grab that fox.
We now have a Dthrow tech chase *sadface*

I would like heavy input on this option - I am having a hard time covering this keeping the gimp alive

 

[Arrestme]

I hunted down some nice software I used to make me some tech-chase with just grabs flow chart. I can use for this data. But you'll have to decide on which seems more fitting for effectiveness as a "cheat-sheet.
Personally I see Trip to be the effective arrangement of questions. Mostly; "Where SHOULD I go/do based on where the enemy can?" Not "Where CAN I go based on where he will". Since little of this can be done in live reaction time, isn't this the goal? Cover as many choices at each phase with only 1 move from us? If I use this data, or if somebody else is already, you should know it's kind of a backwards flow chart. Since you don't spread out, but hone in by limiting the MAIN LINES options to taking 1 choice at each phase, rather than exploring every one that he can? I know we do that any way on the way, but...is this making sense? I'll show you what I mean, just keep listing some good stuff.

 

[Arrestme]

Excellent then. Here's what I mean. A production schedule. For productivity. Flow charts are for feedback loops and following branches of yes/no's. Here's basic template of what it can fit into, but this is primitive one I made, I'll use one of the built in ones.

black text is basic column name, purple is what I replaced with. Good enough? just trying not to hijack. Nothing better then us doing our own homework. so here we go.

 

[Scroll]

All of this info is out dated and being rewritten for the top post

So what is left to cover is the 3 air dodge options and the DJ Sweet Spot.

DJ Sweet Spot

You will need to intercept the DJ in your Run Off FF with a rising Nair.
If the spacie is quick he will UpB as soon as he is out of hitstun, yet he will be below stage level and so his options are reduced severely.
He has Diagonal UpB and Neutral UpB left. We already know how to cover these, so WD back and spot the angle chosen.

Air Dodges

DJ Diagonal Air dodge Onto Stage
DJ Horizontal Air Dodge Onto Stage
DJ Vertical Air Dodge Full Forward Drif Ledge Grab
In every case Dsmash is the answer.
Every time he lands on the edge of the stage you want to be facing him and positioned behind him and Dsmash. It will send him right over the edge and kind of reset the situation. Unless you have godly reaction he will land on the stage first thus regaining his DJ.

DJ Vertical Air Dodge FF Full Forward Drif Ledge Grab

 

[dude it's raining]

This is really cool, similar to Kadano's Marth edgeguarding spacie stuff.

Sorry these aren't too specific, but:
Sometimes when I would wavedash back to do an intangible Bair, I find that I actually need to fastfall past the ledge to get the rising bair soon enough.
Also, I major part of my thought process when gimping spacies is to try to trick them into bad DI with mixing up the bthrow out of my tech chasing. Bad DI on the bthrow is just too easy to cover.

 

[Scroll]

This is really cool, similar to Kadano's Marth edgeguarding spacie stuff.

Sorry these aren't too specific, but:
Sometimes when I would wavedash back to do an intangible Bair, I find that I actually need to fastfall past the ledge to get the rising bair soon enough.
Also, I major part of my thought process when gimping spacies is to try to trick them into bad DI with mixing up the bthrow out of my tech chasing. Bad DI on the bthrow is just too easy to cover.

I gotto work on my conditioning game as well as hard reading. Every thing I do is reaction based. And I am not really that good at that too >.<
How does back throwing work out in your tech chase? How do you follow up on that?

All of the given examples in the posts by me are with optimal reaction time on the foxes part and what you need to do in order to cover that. Alot of times he will be caught off guard and choose sub par options which are alot easier to cover.

About the Bair thingy. You mean you dont have enough time before he is flying out of the firefox? How about sinking him a bit lower before going for the intagibility?

 

[dude it's raining]

About the Bair thingy. You mean you dont have enough time before he is flying out of the firefox? How about sinking him a bit lower before going for the intagibility?

It's just that the ledge grab adds an extra 8 frames before you can let go, and sometimes I feel like that changes things.
I'm really not as aware of optimal options (until tomorrow when I've finished studying what you've written, thanks a lot for that!). In my progress as a competitive player, I'm at a point right now where I'm just trying to perfect my tech chasing and overall strategy stemming from that. But I'm also trying to really make my gameplay like a conversation or something like that with my opponent, and try to "smooth talk" them into a situation where I don't need optimal edgeguarding.
Really, at this point every back throw is a learning experience for me right now, both for the MU in general and for my particular opponent's habits.

EDIT: I saw Kira use the wavedash off -> instant Bair against KK, but that's not against spacies...

 

[Scroll]

It's just that the ledge grab adds an extra 8 frames before you can let go, and sometimes I feel like that changes things.
I'm really not as aware of optimal options (until tomorrow when I've finished studying what you've written, thanks a lot for that!). In my progress as a competitive player, I'm at a point right now where I'm just trying to perfect my tech chasing and overall strategy stemming from that. But I'm also trying to really make my gameplay like a conversation or something like that with my opponent, and try to "smooth talk" them into a situation where I don't need optimal edgeguarding.
Really, at this point every back throw is a learning experience for me right now, both for the MU in general and for my particular opponent's habits.

Please do not take what I write as definite! I'd like as many as possible to put this stuff to the test. Make feedback and so on! Maybe I am missing some factors like SDI, shine stalling etc that goes on in matches outside of what my training partners are capable of.
But at the same time I am trying to do my best here. We spent hours and hours on this
What I conclude from watching even top level players is that they are not going for optimal coverage. It doesnt seem like they have a plan. Except a few, including M2K ofc

They are generally comitting with needles or taking the ledge at bad times..

 

[dude it's raining]

Please do not take what I write as definite! I'd like as many as possible to put this stuff to the test. Make feedback and so on! Maybe I am missing some factors like SDI, shine stalling etc that goes on in matches outside of what my training partners are capable of.
But at the same time I am trying to do my best here. We spent hours and hours on this
What I conclude from watching even top level players is that they are not going for optimal coverage. It doesnt seem like they have a plan. Except a few, including M2K ofc

Yeah, the atmosphere of this thread is just the greatest

 

[Scroll]

I hunted down some nice software I used to make me some tech-chase with just grabs flow chart. I can use for this data. But you'll have to decide on which seems more fitting for effectiveness as a "cheat-sheet.
Personally I see Trip to be the effective arrangement of questions. Mostly; "Where SHOULD I go/do based on where the enemy can?" Not "Where CAN I go based on where he will". Since little of this can be done in live reaction time, isn't this the goal? Cover as many choices at each phase with only 1 move from us? If I use this data, or if somebody else is already, you should know it's kind of a backwards flow chart. Since you don't spread out, but hone in by limiting the MAIN LINES options to taking 1 choice at each phase, rather than exploring every one that he can? I know we do that any way on the way, but...is this making sense? I'll show you what I mean, just keep listing some good stuff.

I have read your post a few times over and I still don't understand it
Can you explain some more? You don't agree with my approach or?

 

[Arrestme]

I have read your post a few times over and I still don't understand it
Can you explain some more? You don't agree with my approach or?

No, your approach is fine. I don't know why u say that, but I just advise against having a flow chart. Just picture how it places all processes through a sequence of both correct & wrong scenarios. We need only consider enemy reactions, responding with the single right move, and so on. Not exploring if different reactions to that can succeed in gimping (generally a flow chart).

Again, generally a flow chart lists and follows all actions/reactions to and from non-competing elements & choices. For carving out what best move phases are optimal, not how to really do them. By sniffing out correct actions to possible reactions. We don't need to play out & past evrey enemy actions, we need only consider them, to know which is the best reaction to them all. Moving on to the next phase / etc. That was your approach, & so a production schedule can optimize it better than a flow chart. Just look at my template to see that.