- Joined
- Jun 15, 2014
- Messages
- 559
Warning: This thread is UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Anything stated in this thread is up for discussion. I will update info as I learn more and get input from you guys.
Here is my current mindset during the gimping process:
As soon as I grab the spacie I have a fool proof plan for covering any option the spacie choose recovering back to stage. All I gotto do is watch him and act accordingly.
Every single time I back throw a spacie off the stage I run off the stage and FF DJ. This puts me in an advantegous position to cover more options but downgrades covering any Fox UpB. This is a tactical move that ensures I don't limit myself to a portion of the options and downright gives him free options to come back.
The only limit is my recognition and reaction ability.
I want to mention that there are huge possibilities for scaring your local spacie. What I mean is not from the actual gimps (that should be obvious), but more in the conditioning. Looking for every single option every time is hella hard. If you somehow can condition him to narrow his options this could be very beneficial.
For example follow up on the back throw with a standing needle two times in a row and saying out loud "now I am just gonna needle you!" (plant a wrong idea in his head that this is your standard follow up) Then you can be sure he choose a high or low option from then on. If the needle hit, the effect will be stronger.
Or WD back and take ledge twice "Get edge hogged". Then he will likely do the Illusion, the next time you back throw him.
The goal is to have the artillery to handle every single option though, and so here are the tools I use for:
-DJ Sweet Spot
-Illusion
DJ Sweet Spot
You will need to intercept the DJ in your Run Off FF with a rising Nair.
Actually this goes for any DJ forward he chooses. If the spacie is quick he will UpB as soon as he is out of hitstun, yet he will be below stage level and so his options are reduced severely.
He has Diagonal UpB and Neutral UpB left. These options are described below.
DJ Illusion
You will need to spot the Illusion start up animation and wait for the signature "Pling" sound and input Nair on this que. This will ensure you get the strong hit of Nair and so if you FF Lcancel you will be ready at ground before the spacie reach stage level.
As soon as you are out of Lcancel lag. You will want to stun the spacie again.
My personal choise is Dsmash vs. Fox and Double Jab vs. Falco.
You want to send Fox outwards in order to put him in an angle for SH Needle to hit, which has no landing lag so you can take Ledge asap after and intabible Bair him.
You want to send Falco straight down because you dont need to SH Needle him. As soon as the lag of the jab is over you run off FF and DJ Fair the Falco.
Shortened
In case the spacie shortens his Illusion you will simply hit him at ledge level after the FF before he grabs on to the Ledge. Your action is unchanged from regular Illusion since you already have a hitbox out from Nair to take care of the poor spacie.
If this is the case then you proceed straight to run off FF DJ Fair if it's Falco. If vs. Fox then simply wait at the Ledge, crouching and Dsmash his UpB. Proceed to SH Needle him and take the Ledge -> intangible Bair him.
Sweetspotted
Under construction
Air Dodges
Every time he lands on the edge of the stage you want to be facing him and positioned behind him and Dsmash. It will send him right over the edge and reset the situation. Unless you have godly reaction he will land on the stage first thus regaining his DJ.
I am currently working on an a solution involving turning around (with a needle or after landing) and regrabbing.
This might be superior since the spacie regain his DJ anyway.
Dsmash outperforms regrab only if you can hit him before he reach the ground after the air dodge. This proves incredibly defficult and demands he does not FF after the air dodge.
UpB
If you can cover these then you can cover the rest of the finetuned angles.
One key element to master is knowing how long the start up animation before the spacie starts to fly is, which is 42 frames or roughly 2/3rds of a second. Then spot the angle he chose right when that animation ends!
As soon as he starts flying you know exactly where he is going to end up (plus minus Drift). In a sense like a tech chase.
In any case, in order to cover Illusion you need to Run off FF DJ onto stage emediatly.
You want to drift so you land right on the edge of the stage. Walk on so you reach Teeter or close. This is important if you want to cover one specific option. Then Crouch!
He has 3 air dodge options too and these are very important as more and more spacies are catching on to this option. Don't picnic because yes we can cover those too.
Any direction and length DJ into Firefox directly to the Ledge
This is by far the fastest Firefox option to handle.
Our only viable option here is Dsmash. Any other tool would be a part of a hard read.
Unfortunatly the spacie can tech it and gain wall jump options.
To make it harder to tech we need to do the Dsmash as far out as possible.
This is why you want to land at the edge of the stage after the run off FF DJ.
Since Dsmash has 1 frame of invincibility on the legs we need to time it right in order not to trade hits with the Firefox hitbox.
The cue to inputting the Dsmash is right as the spacie leaves the start up animation. This is a tight window.
In order to cover this consistantly we need to Dsmash regardless blindly.
I always crouch at the ledge in case I miss the Dsmash timing. You can CC Firefox to 60%
Emediate or any DJ length + drift into Neutral Firefox
Simply wait for the 92(Fox) / 84(Falco) frames (about 1.5 seconds) of Firefox to end.
As your Dsmash ends, do a long WD back. As he drops, recognize if he drifts while falling, then correct your position accordingly by walking, Dsmash him off and SH Needle him.
Note that if the Dsmash is too late and you hit him after he landed, he then gains the opportunity to tech the Dsmash by SDI'ing into the stage. The optimal solution is therefore to hit him before he lands.
Yes we can also Fair him as he drops, which also leads into a SH Needle. Make sure to hit him right above the ground with a late auto cancelled Fair.
We can also grab him out of the air and Forward Throw him off.
I personally think Fair is the best option and Dsmash is the easiest. Both have more knock back and hit stun than a forward throw.
We can also Grab Release the spacie if we grabbed him at the very edge. As we grabbed him out of the air from Firefox he only has one option and that is Firefox below the stage. And so we can simply handle that by doing a Run off emediat aerial DJ aerial.
UpB at 45 degrees (under construction)
First to be noted is that now the difference between Fox and Falco becomes relevant since their UpB has different lengths and so we need to talk about them seperately. The stage also has a saying on what to expect because platform heights.
For now I am almost biased towards saying that 45 degree Firefox to the platform is a "safe" way out for Fox to escape a gimp.
Fox
Fox will DJ early and emediate UpB to keep his options open. He will land on the platform.
So after your Dsmash ends you want to WL on that platform as quickly as you can and grab that fox.
We now have a Dthrow tech chase *sadface*
I would like heavy input on this option - I am having a hard time covering this keeping the gimp alive
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For anyone who is unsure what a gimp is here is a beautiful clip of our own Kirbykaze gimping Weon-X
(A Gimp is the act of throwing the enemy off the stage and gradually sinking him lower and lower until KO.
This can be done from 0%)
How do you approcah gimping spacies?
Is there some sort of flowchart that one can follow?
You got some neat personal touches that could spice up and inspire all of us?
Feel free to post any input on this topic
Anything stated in this thread is up for discussion. I will update info as I learn more and get input from you guys.
Here is my current mindset during the gimping process:
As soon as I grab the spacie I have a fool proof plan for covering any option the spacie choose recovering back to stage. All I gotto do is watch him and act accordingly.
Every single time I back throw a spacie off the stage I run off the stage and FF DJ. This puts me in an advantegous position to cover more options but downgrades covering any Fox UpB. This is a tactical move that ensures I don't limit myself to a portion of the options and downright gives him free options to come back.
The only limit is my recognition and reaction ability.
I want to mention that there are huge possibilities for scaring your local spacie. What I mean is not from the actual gimps (that should be obvious), but more in the conditioning. Looking for every single option every time is hella hard. If you somehow can condition him to narrow his options this could be very beneficial.
For example follow up on the back throw with a standing needle two times in a row and saying out loud "now I am just gonna needle you!" (plant a wrong idea in his head that this is your standard follow up) Then you can be sure he choose a high or low option from then on. If the needle hit, the effect will be stronger.
Or WD back and take ledge twice "Get edge hogged". Then he will likely do the Illusion, the next time you back throw him.
The goal is to have the artillery to handle every single option though, and so here are the tools I use for:
-DJ Sweet Spot
-Illusion
- DJ back, Neutral or Forward into Illusion, with or without shortening (all covered with the same tool)
- DJ Diagonal Air dodge Onto Stage
- DJ Horizontal Air Dodge Onto Stage
- DJ Vertical Air Dodge Full Forward Drif Ledge Grab
- DJ UpB Directly to Ledge
- DJ or Emediate Diagonal UpB
- DJ or Emediate Neutral UpB (vertical)
DJ Sweet Spot
You will need to intercept the DJ in your Run Off FF with a rising Nair.
Actually this goes for any DJ forward he chooses. If the spacie is quick he will UpB as soon as he is out of hitstun, yet he will be below stage level and so his options are reduced severely.
He has Diagonal UpB and Neutral UpB left. These options are described below.
DJ Illusion
- regular
- shortened
- sweetspotted
You will need to spot the Illusion start up animation and wait for the signature "Pling" sound and input Nair on this que. This will ensure you get the strong hit of Nair and so if you FF Lcancel you will be ready at ground before the spacie reach stage level.
As soon as you are out of Lcancel lag. You will want to stun the spacie again.
My personal choise is Dsmash vs. Fox and Double Jab vs. Falco.
You want to send Fox outwards in order to put him in an angle for SH Needle to hit, which has no landing lag so you can take Ledge asap after and intabible Bair him.
You want to send Falco straight down because you dont need to SH Needle him. As soon as the lag of the jab is over you run off FF and DJ Fair the Falco.
Shortened
In case the spacie shortens his Illusion you will simply hit him at ledge level after the FF before he grabs on to the Ledge. Your action is unchanged from regular Illusion since you already have a hitbox out from Nair to take care of the poor spacie.
If this is the case then you proceed straight to run off FF DJ Fair if it's Falco. If vs. Fox then simply wait at the Ledge, crouching and Dsmash his UpB. Proceed to SH Needle him and take the Ledge -> intangible Bair him.
Sweetspotted
Under construction
Air Dodges
- DJ Diagonal Air dodge Onto Stage
- DJ Horizontal Air Dodge Onto Stage
- DJ Vertical Air Dodge Full Forward Drif Ledge Grab
Every time he lands on the edge of the stage you want to be facing him and positioned behind him and Dsmash. It will send him right over the edge and reset the situation. Unless you have godly reaction he will land on the stage first thus regaining his DJ.
I am currently working on an a solution involving turning around (with a needle or after landing) and regrabbing.
This might be superior since the spacie regain his DJ anyway.
Dsmash outperforms regrab only if you can hit him before he reach the ground after the air dodge. This proves incredibly defficult and demands he does not FF after the air dodge.
UpB
- DJ UpB Directly to Ledge
- Emediate or DJ Diagonal UpB
- Emediate or DJ Neutral UpB (vertical)
If you can cover these then you can cover the rest of the finetuned angles.
One key element to master is knowing how long the start up animation before the spacie starts to fly is, which is 42 frames or roughly 2/3rds of a second. Then spot the angle he chose right when that animation ends!
As soon as he starts flying you know exactly where he is going to end up (plus minus Drift). In a sense like a tech chase.
In any case, in order to cover Illusion you need to Run off FF DJ onto stage emediatly.
You want to drift so you land right on the edge of the stage. Walk on so you reach Teeter or close. This is important if you want to cover one specific option. Then Crouch!
He has 3 air dodge options too and these are very important as more and more spacies are catching on to this option. Don't picnic because yes we can cover those too.
Any direction and length DJ into Firefox directly to the Ledge
This is by far the fastest Firefox option to handle.
Our only viable option here is Dsmash. Any other tool would be a part of a hard read.
Unfortunatly the spacie can tech it and gain wall jump options.
To make it harder to tech we need to do the Dsmash as far out as possible.
This is why you want to land at the edge of the stage after the run off FF DJ.
Since Dsmash has 1 frame of invincibility on the legs we need to time it right in order not to trade hits with the Firefox hitbox.
The cue to inputting the Dsmash is right as the spacie leaves the start up animation. This is a tight window.
In order to cover this consistantly we need to Dsmash regardless blindly.
I always crouch at the ledge in case I miss the Dsmash timing. You can CC Firefox to 60%
Emediate or any DJ length + drift into Neutral Firefox
Simply wait for the 92(Fox) / 84(Falco) frames (about 1.5 seconds) of Firefox to end.
As your Dsmash ends, do a long WD back. As he drops, recognize if he drifts while falling, then correct your position accordingly by walking, Dsmash him off and SH Needle him.
Note that if the Dsmash is too late and you hit him after he landed, he then gains the opportunity to tech the Dsmash by SDI'ing into the stage. The optimal solution is therefore to hit him before he lands.
Yes we can also Fair him as he drops, which also leads into a SH Needle. Make sure to hit him right above the ground with a late auto cancelled Fair.
We can also grab him out of the air and Forward Throw him off.
I personally think Fair is the best option and Dsmash is the easiest. Both have more knock back and hit stun than a forward throw.
We can also Grab Release the spacie if we grabbed him at the very edge. As we grabbed him out of the air from Firefox he only has one option and that is Firefox below the stage. And so we can simply handle that by doing a Run off emediat aerial DJ aerial.
UpB at 45 degrees (under construction)
First to be noted is that now the difference between Fox and Falco becomes relevant since their UpB has different lengths and so we need to talk about them seperately. The stage also has a saying on what to expect because platform heights.
For now I am almost biased towards saying that 45 degree Firefox to the platform is a "safe" way out for Fox to escape a gimp.
Fox
Fox will DJ early and emediate UpB to keep his options open. He will land on the platform.
So after your Dsmash ends you want to WL on that platform as quickly as you can and grab that fox.
We now have a Dthrow tech chase *sadface*
I would like heavy input on this option - I am having a hard time covering this keeping the gimp alive
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For anyone who is unsure what a gimp is here is a beautiful clip of our own Kirbykaze gimping Weon-X
(A Gimp is the act of throwing the enemy off the stage and gradually sinking him lower and lower until KO.
This can be done from 0%)
How do you approcah gimping spacies?
Is there some sort of flowchart that one can follow?
You got some neat personal touches that could spice up and inspire all of us?
Feel free to post any input on this topic
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