Space Animal Move Comparison Rundown

[BEES]

Just for the heck of it, I wanted to compare the Starfox trio in terms of which of them had the most effective version of each move. I think this could be useful for strengthening Falco's metagame if we look more at our best moves and how to string them together. I want to take priority of the attacks into account too, a move that's less likely to kill but faster or more likely to break someone's defense is more valuable sometimes.

Tilts:
f-tilt - wolf, falco ~ fox
d-tilt - fox, falco, wolf
u-tilt - wolf, fox, falco
AAA - falco
dash attack - falco, fox, wolf

Smashes:
f-smash - wolf
u-smash - fox
d-smash - wolf

Specials:
n-special - falco, wolf, fox
f-special - falco, wolf, fox
u-special - wolf ~ fox, falco
d-special - fox ~ falco?, wolf

aerials:
n-air - fox, falco, wolf
f-air - wolf, fox, falco
u-air - fox, falco, wolf
d-air - falco, fox, wolf
b-air - falco, wolf, fox

throws:
f-throw - wolf
u-throw - fox
d-throw - falco
b-throw - falco
grab - ?
grab attack - ?

movements:
walk - fox
dash - fox
1st jump - falco
2nd jump - falco
airdodge - ?
spotdodge - ?
roll - falco
shield - ?
land - Fox
horizontal air movement - Wolf
fall - Fox
fast fall -
tumble - ?
ledge grab - ?
trip - ?


So give me some input on this. I'm especially curious about the last part, because it might help me figure out what the best way to move around is. If anyone has suggestions for advanced movements to add, by all means.

I know this is the Falco forum, but don't just say Falco for everything, he is not the best at everything. Understanding a character's weaknesses is just as important as strengths.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

How does Fox's down B outclass Wolfs?
Please explain, when I look at it, Wolf seems to have a better reflector.

 

[BEES]

Fox's reflector stalls his air momentum. This allows him to dash, jump, shine cancel the jump which leaves him on the ground, jump cancel the shine, and attack with anything again.

Wolf's has a brief period of perfect invincibility, making it double as a spot dodge. That is nice, but the knockback and combo potential of Fox's shine probably outweighs it.

 

[Exousia]

Wolf's shine doesn't stall air momentum, and I think it comes out slower than Falco's or Fox

also, IMO I think Fox's Nair is better because you can easily continue or start a combo with it. Falco's is more of a Finisher unless you FF before the final move and chain it with a grab or something.

Therefore, Fox's nair outweighing Falco's in usefulness.

But don't get me wrong, Falco's Nair is still good for racking up damage and a great way to knock some damage on people above you on the platforms and to juggle them in the air but a combo tool is better than a quick damage dealer.


And as for Side B Special, Fox's is the slowest. Falco's is quicker (which means better sweetspotting) and Wolf's has ridiculous diagonal trajectory with a mega sweetspot that can out match his own Fire Wolf in that sort of directional recovery.

I say its a tie between Falco and Wolf mainly because of their sweetspotting capabilities.

 

[zamz]

Almost every category that you mentioned can be debated. For example, I'm going out on a wing and saying that Falco's reflector is the most useful. Although it doesn't let him float like fox, it works a lot better than Wolf and Fox's in usability. I don't know of any Wolf that uses his reflector in the heat of battle...it's only something he uses when he's standing still waiting for his opponent to approach or when he's reflecting projectiles. Falco actually USES his reflector in the heat of battle. He uses it for spacing and approaching.

Better yet, Falco's reflector is stronger than Wolf and Fox's...Falco can override almost every move in the game. It has better range than Pit's Side-B reflector (allowing you to stand back and hit Pit while he's using the move). It is possibly one of the best spacing moves in the game, assuming you get the timing down.

---

On what grounds can a move be better than another move? Falco's F-Smash is great. So is Wolf's. So is Fox's. They all have an excellent F-Smash...Wolf has the fastest. Falco has the best range. And I think Fox has the farthest hitting. These traits are nigh incomparable.

And I hate to say it, but having the highest "# of best moves" does not make that character better. The character who has the best combination of moves will be the better character. In fact, a character who has the fewest best moves could still have a better moveset if it allows him to string attacks togeather. I like the idea, but I think this thread won't accomplish much. It'll only amount to people arguing and then making the claim that: "SEE, X IS BETTER THAN ____, because he has the most 'best' moves!" This kind of logic is completely wrong...

 

[J4pu]

Fox's reflector stalls his air momentum. This allows him to dash, jump, shine cancel the jump which leaves him on the ground, jump cancel the shine, and attack with anything again.

Wolf's has a brief period of perfect invincibility, making it double as a spot dodge. That is nice, but the knockback and combo potential of Fox's shine probably outweighs it.

unless i missed something you can't JC shines anymore

 

[Airwalkerr]

I disagree with the dash attack. From my experience with wolf, it tends to miss half the time. I don't claim to be good with wolf, but it just doesnt seem to be very reliable, wheras Fox's dash can nicely set up a lot of attacks.

 

[BEES]

unless i missed something you can't JC shines anymore

What the hell is this guy doing then?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YqP0xuWhJhs&feature=related

On what grounds can a move be better than another move? Falco's F-Smash is great. So is Wolf's. So is Fox's. They all have an excellent F-Smash...Wolf has the fastest. Falco has the best range. And I think Fox has the farthest hitting. These traits are nigh incomparable.

A move is better if you get more utility from using it. It does more damage, more knockback, is quicker, less punishable, a combination of factors. Falco's F-smash has a lot of punishable lag and it moves him forward less, making it more susceptible to shield-grabbing. It's powerful, but power isn't everything.

I disagree with the dash attack. From my experience with wolf, it tends to miss half the time. I don't claim to be good with wolf, but it just doesnt seem to be very reliable, wheras Fox's dash can nicely set up a lot of attacks.

Noted

 

[wasabicheese]

well, falcos dash atk is better overall bcuz of the gatling attack (dash->up smash)

 

[Shake~]

Is Falco's bair really better then Wolf's bair? I don't know enough of Falco's, so I'll leave this question for others to answer.

And in my opinion Wolf's side-B is slightly better then Falco's, because it can sweet spot, the scar technique, and it's a great recovery move.

Wolf's running attack sucks, I'd say Falco's is better because you can follow it up with up smash.

 

[wasabicheese]

i find falcos >B far better recovery-wise, but = 2 wolfs overall. and falcos Bair is better than wolf's.

 

[BEES]

Noted

Let's make this a bit more detailed. Best to worst, color coded, shall we?

 

[zamz]

I want to say Fox has the best landing, fall and fastfall. I would assume they all have equal ledge-grab and equal tripping.

I see you wrote Falco and Wolf equal in Side-B. They are relatively even, but the advantage should go to Falco. It's difficult for Wolf to ever get an opprotunity to hit. But Falco can use it almost religiously and hit every time. Because Falco goes sideways as opposed to diagnal, it seems his move has more application. Even though Wolf's does more damage, application is key here.

I want to say Wolf has a better Up-B than Fox. Doesn't Fox have a higher delay before his blast hits? Wolf's delay is short enough that he can use it for damage...fox only uses it for recovery.

Do you have a category for dash-attack?

 

[ElPadrino]

I would say Wolf has the best Back Air, though Falcos's is awesome as well.

and as a Wolf mainer I use the reflector a lot in battle, and let me tell you that wolf's reflector is amazing.

 

[Mentok the Mind Taker]

going out on a wing and saying that Falco's reflector is the most useful

Except if you miss the consequences for falco are worse. unlike Wolf/fox, Falco cannot hold the reflector out, making reflection harder. There is infinitely more ending lag comparatively on Falcos vB that it is a very average move

On what grounds can a move be better than another move? Falco's F-Smash is great. So is Wolf's. So is Fox's. They all have an excellent F-Smash...Wolf has the fastest.

Falco's Fsmash blows nuts. It has the pressure of being one of few reliable kill moves, increasing predictability. Lag on the move leads to recognition->reaction->shieldgrab. There is no way Falco's side smash has more range than Wolf's.

Falco has the best range. And I think Fox has the farthest hitting.

Is that not a contradiction?

 

[zamz]

Is that not a contradiction?

Uh...no. How far you hit someone has nothing to do with the length of your attack.

 

[Shake~]

I think Wolf's has more range, but Falco's still has a good amount of range in his side smash.

Wolf's side+B is good for shutting down aerial approaches time to time, it's great at recovery, and scarring gives Wolf so many more options, and helps land sweetspotted flashes easier in FFAs and to the people that are unknowing. Falco's side+B is still good at recovery, activates quicker I think, and has more use on the stage, to chip in damage and such while being relatively hard to punish well.

I guess Falco's is better offensively, but Wolf's is better recovery-wise, and has better killing power. Equal or slight advantage Wolf.

And for Bairs, Wolf's is stronger, and has more range, but Falco's stays out longer. So I think Wolf's is better. Does Falco's bair have great priority? If so that may change my mind.

For Reflectors... this is tough. Fox's reflector lets him stay in the air longer, Falco's is great for spacing and to add on damage, and Wolf's is good as a counter.

 

[J4pu]

unless i missed something you can't JC shines anymore

What the hell is this guy doing then?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YqP0xuWhJhs&feature=related

Granted it was a while ago but I believe I read on the Fox boards that you can't JC shines in brawl, but instead you can now Shine cancel jumps
You mentioned both in your post so I figured you were talking about the two different things and not accidentally typing the wrong thing while referring to Shine canceled jumps

CONFIRMED: I just tested it, you cannot jump straight out of shines as the JC shine refers to (that was from melee)

 

[Blistering Speed]

Just so everyone knows, Foxs JC shine this game is not the shine being jump cancelled, its the jump being shine cancelled i.e. cancelling the jump with the shine

 

[BEES]

Gotcha, jump-canceling is impossible. Shine-canceling the jumps is the only lag-canceling that occurs.

Now enough talking about Fox.

 

[BEES]

I want to say Fox has the best landing, fall and fastfall. I would assume they all have equal ledge-grab and equal tripping.

I see you wrote Falco and Wolf equal in Side-B. They are relatively even, but the advantage should go to Falco. It's difficult for Wolf to ever get an opprotunity to hit. But Falco can use it almost religiously and hit every time. Because Falco goes sideways as opposed to diagnal, it seems his move has more application. Even though Wolf's does more damage, application is key here.

I want to say Wolf has a better Up-B than Fox. Doesn't Fox have a higher delay before his blast hits? Wolf's delay is short enough that he can use it for damage...fox only uses it for recovery.

Do you have a category for dash-attack?

Noted, and dash-attack is under tilts at the moment. What were you proposing for that?

 

[BEES]

Wolf's upB has a very small ledge sweetspot, and he cannot control the direction of his fall afterwards.I'm also fairly sure Fox's has more range. Wolf's is great for attacking though.

I think I'm going to agree with you on this. On stages other than Final Destination, Wolf's UpB is much more of a strength than a liability compared to Fox's.

 

[Shake~]

Wolf's Up+B is the weakest in damage of the three (9 damage total), and there's not really many situations where it's worth using it offensively.

 

[Adapt]

I think wolf's b-throw sets up perfectly for a forward-B spike at certain percents, I think its better than Falco's. Obviously you can't spike someone to their death, but its still an extra 10-15% damage

 

[Mentok the Mind Taker]

^ Oh you meant killing ability/launch speed. I am pretty sure Falco's has higher launch speed/distance than Fox's

 

[Red Alloy]

I think wolf's b-throw sets up perfectly for a forward-B spike at certain percents, I think its better than Falco's. Obviously you can't spike someone to their death, but its still an extra 10-15% damage

You'll probably never killspike someone with Falco's, either, but Falco's is practical in other areas besides spiking, so it's better.

Another thing: Fox's side-b is the same as Falco's minus spike, right? Then why is Wolf's better? Fox's can be used to recover, and while Wolf's can as well, it's outclassed by his up-b in that aspect, and since it's so hard to spike with it, it's practically useless unless you're really lucky.

 

[J4pu]

You'll probably never killspike someone with Falco's, either, but Falco's is practical in other areas besides spiking, so it's better.

Another thing: Fox's side-b is the same as Falco's minus spike, right? Then why is Wolf's better? Fox's can be used to recover, and while Wolf's can as well, it's outclassed by his up-b in that aspect, and since it's so hard to spike with it, it's practically useless unless you're really lucky.

not quite sure if this is correct but Fox's side B seems shorter than Falco's to me, maybe it's just cuz Fox's upB goes further than side B as opposed to Falco's upB which goes shorter than side B making it look that way.

 

[manhunter098]

Well the first thing I have a question on is how many frames does it take for the hitbox on Wolfs d-tilt to come out. I use him a bit less than Falco, but I find that its range is much better than Falcos, and find it appearing a lot more in my game with Wolf than with Falco, but if Falco's does come out faster than Wolfs (which I am completely unsure of) then I can see Falco's being somewhat better.

I think that Wolf and Falco should be tied with the side specials. Wolf's makes a great surprise attack (kind of like Olimar's and Ivysaur's Up specials) and it can KO at higher percentages. I dont find the spiking aspect really useful (Ive only ever spiked with it ONCE and Im pretty good with my spacing on it) but it still hits hard and it happens fast. Also I feel that the diagonal trajectory makes it a bit less predictable, not by a lot but still its much harder to intercept than Falco's side special. Used on stage its more punishable though, but then again only a fool would use it when they feel they could be punished by the helpless fall that follows.

I also feel that in some sense, there is no way to compare their reflectors in a fair way. They all have attributes that make them unique and the value they add to each characters game is difficult to judge. Falco's has the most range and works great at making a reflected projectile much harder to block. Fox's cancels his momentum, and comes out very quickly. And Wolfs has invincibility frames not to mention a slightly greater range than Fox's.

For aerials, Im fine with all except f-air. I feel that Fox and Wolf's f-airs are about equal. Wolfs comes out fast and has good knockback, but the lag time after using it makes it problematic. Fox's has duration and I would say damage as well if you can get most of the hits to connect as well. Plus if I remember it can be auto-canceled, and I am relatively sure that you cannot do that with Wolf's (but I might be mistaken there).

 

[Shake~]

Wolf's fair can be shorthopped and have no landing lag as long as you do it in time. It's useful as a kill move and at low % you possibly can up-tilt them afterwards if you short hopped. Also, fair apparently can spike, but to do it on will you may rarely ever pull it off. I find it useful to tip them with fair, and getting out of attack range when I land.

Also, Wolf's back-throw to side-B just doesn't work. Wolf's side-B sweetspotted kills very well though, but it's hard to make them fly the direction you want.

Wolf's dtilt is just good for spacing. The damage is weak, the knockback is very little, and the speed it comes out is the same as his down smash, while the down tilt barely having more range then the down smash, but since it has a quicker after-lag, it's good for poking.