Source Gaming: Clone Characters in Smash Bros.: Truths and Misconceptions

[ChikoLad]

I never said they should buff all of those areas. If they just buff one or two areas, or maybe even buff each area a little bit, he'll be balanced. It's that simple.

Sakurai didn't plan for DLC. He made Smash 4 without DLC in mind. Dark Pit, as far as we know, was never considered a candidate for a unique character. He was planned as an Alt. from the very beginning, and Sakurai and the development team decided to make him a clone at the last minute. Dark Pit, as far as we know, was never intended to be a unique character, so why would he be considered a candidate for DLC? There's no rhyme or reason to it.

Hardly. In most tier lists, Pit and Dark Pit are a spot or two away from each other. In a game like Smash 4, that's barely anything. Furthermore, Dark Pit can always be buffed.

Also, in regards to the "Luke and Darth Vader" analogy for Link and Toon Link, that's not very accurate. Every Link is a reincarnation of the previous one, and, thus, they are essentially the same character. However, this particular debate is irrelevant at this point, so I'm prepared to simply drop it.

And then he'd be Mario.

"Sakurai didn't plan for DLC"

The very same icon that is now being used on the stage select screen for DLC, was found in the games files at launch, as were many of the text files used in the 3DS DLC shop. He planned for DLC. There is also one for the character select screen. He may have said that there was no DLC planned, but Sakurai has lied to us before ().

I don't care if Dark Pit is hardly worse, the point is he doesn't have a niche, he was not designed with one in mind, leading to him being a downgraded Pit. They only made his properties different for the sake of it. They at least attempted to fill a niche (and did so poorly) with Dr. Mario and Lucina. With Dark Pit, they just made him different for the sake of it. And really, there is no reason why Pit and Dark Pit SHOULD fight differently if they happen to use the same kind of weapons in Smash, since they are equals, they literally share the same consciousness in canon (recall the Chaos Kin arc, where when Pit was put out of commission for a few years due to being turned into a ring, wakes up and eventually meets up with Dark Pit, Dark Pit comments on how he fell unconscious out of nowhere at the exact same time).

You keep saying "well they can always buff or change this clone", but the point is they haven't, and they clearly have no intention on doing so. Lucina and Dark Pit received changes in patches, but they went hand in hand with Marth and Pit changes. With the exception of one of Lucina's moves being tweaked slightly in damage, but that did nothing to change the fact that she's still just baby's first Marth, since the frame data is all the same.

And no, Toon Link is not a reincarnation of Young Link. He literally is his own person, he has no direct relation in terms of spirit. Again, there is a scene where the King of Red Lions outright states that he is not the Hero of Time or a reincarnation there of.

 

[SpandexBullets]

The clones in Melee, despite the big number of them, actually played differently then their original counterparts. Ganondorf does not play like Falcon due to being much more focused on power and less on speed, Falco does not play like Fox due to much worse mobility and attributes on his moves, Roy does not play like Marth due to the different mechanics of their swords, ect.

In Smash 4, Dark Pit & Lucina especially function nearly identically to their original counterparts, to having the exact same custom moves. This makes people question "why have them in there at all if they are just the same?". I have no problem with characters like Lucina making it in the roster, but having her like this? I would much rather have her as a Alt for Marth or make her DLC ala Roy. The way she is right now, Lucina is not a good addition to the roster and is basically irrelevant since Marth is just better then her in every way. Meanwhile, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario are basically costumes that were given their own character slots for no reason and both are worse then their original counterparts as characters.

If you're gonna have clones, at least give them different properties that are noticeable so that they can play differently. If you are gonna have a clone that plays exactly like the original, don't even add them as it adds nothing to the roster.

Ehhh Ganon plays a bit like falcon.
Actually, I think Ganon just plays like a slow Falcon with a larger reliance on dair.

 

[Delzethin]

Speaking of Roy, that semi-clone moveset of his was a surprise, wasn't it? Considering Mewtwo and Lucas basically stayed the same when they returned, Roy's changes are unusual...but perhaps there's a reason why.

As we've known for a while, Roy was planned for Brawl and actually had some ambiguous progress made before being cut for time (along with Mewtwo and Doc). One of Brawl's key design choices was taking former clones and Luigifying them. Returners Falco and Ganondorf became semi-clones, Young Link's successor Toon Link followed suit, Luigi himself was barely recognizable from Mario any more, and even newcomers Lucas and Wolf had their own variations on their source characters.

And so...even though Roy didn't make it into Brawl, it seems plausible that he had a semi-clone moveset drawn up as well. Perhaps that's the reason they didn't hesitate to bring him back despite the fanbase's vocal dislike of clones; they already had a semi-clone moveset they never got to use before!

 

[U-Throw]

And then he'd be Mario.

"Sakurai didn't plan for DLC"

The very same icon that is now being used on the stage select screen for DLC, was found in the games files at launch, as were many of the text files used in the 3DS DLC shop. He planned for DLC. There is also one for the character select screen. He may have said that there was no DLC planned, but Sakurai has lied to us before ().

I don't care if Dark Pit is hardly worse, the point is he doesn't have a niche, he was not designed with one in mind, leading to him being a downgraded Pit. They only made his properties different for the sake of it. They at least attempted to fill a niche (and did so poorly) with Dr. Mario and Lucina. With Dark Pit, they just made him different for the sake of it. And really, there is no reason why Pit and Dark Pit SHOULD fight differently if they happen to use the same kind of weapons in Smash, since they are equals, they literally share the same consciousness in canon (recall the Chaos Kin arc, where when Pit was put out of commission for a few years due to being turned into a ring, wakes up and eventually meets up with Dark Pit, Dark Pit comments on how he fell unconscious out of nowhere at the exact same time).

You keep saying "well they can always buff or change this clone", but the point is they haven't, and they clearly have no intention on doing so. Lucina and Dark Pit received changes in patches, but they went hand in hand with Marth and Pit changes. With the exception of one of Lucina's moves being tweaked slightly in damage, but that did nothing to change the fact that she's still just baby's first Marth, since the frame data is all the same.

And no, Toon Link is not a reincarnation of Young Link. He literally is his own person, he has no direct relation in terms of spirit. Again, there is a scene where the King of Red Lions outright states that he is not the Hero of Time or a reincarnation there of.

You seem to have an incredibly narrow view of how to balance characters. With Dr. Mario, if Sakurai would increase his damage output on a "per move" basis to a particular degree, then combos would become less important to his playstyle, and, thus, he could be balanced. It's very simple, and that's only one of many ways of going about it.

Post-development. Once the game reaches a certain point in development, no more major content can be added before the game is shipped out, and, therefore, plans for things such as DLC can be made. It's very possible that work on DLC was started before Smash 4 was shipped out, and the development team decided to add the arrow graphic into Smash 4's code in an effort to slightly reduce the workload later on. It's the same reason that Mario Golf: World Tour had DLC on the same day it was released. The game was complete, and work on additional content began before the game itself was actually shipped out. And you're crazy if you think Sakurai was "lying" to us about Zero Suit Samus. That was obviously intended to be a 2-second joke.

So, you'd rather have him be an Alt. so he can move up 1 spot on the tier list? I mean, come on. It's one thing to want Dark Pit to be better, but to take him from being a clone to being an Alt. just for the sake of moving him up 1 spot on a tier list? That's a little extreme, no? Dark Pit is inferior to a neglible extent. I'm sure that most of his players don't care that he's inferior by one spot. Also, you're confusing me here. You say you want Dark Pit as a unique character, but you're defending his status as a character similar to Pit. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Just because they haven't been buffed so far doesn't mean they won't. Look at Samus and Zelda. They weren't buffed until extremely recently. There's no reason to think that the clones won't get buffed eventually. Give it some time.

I see. My apologies.

 

[ChikoLad]

You seem to have an incredibly narrow view of how to balance characters. With Dr. Mario, if Sakurai would increase his damage output on a "per move" basis to a particular degree, then combos would become less important to his playstyle, and, thus, he could be balanced. It's very simple, and that's only one of many ways of going about it.

Post-development. Once the game reaches a certain point in development, no more major content can be added before the game is shipped out, and, therefore, plans for things such as DLC can be made. It's very possible that work on DLC was started before Smash 4 was shipped out, and the development team decided to add the arrow graphic into Smash 4's code in an effort to slightly reduce the workload later on. It's the same reason that Mario Golf: World Tour had DLC on the same day it was released. The game was complete, and work on additional content began before the game itself was actually shipped out. And you're crazy if you think Sakurai was "lying" to us about Zero Suit Samus. That was obviously intended to be a 2-second joke.

So, you'd rather have him be an Alt. so he can move up 1 spot on the tier list? I mean, come on. It's one thing to want Dark Pit to be better, but to take him from being a clone to being an Alt. just for the sake of moving him up 1 spot on a tier list? That's a little extreme, no? Dark Pit is inferior to a neglible extent. I'm sure that most of his players don't care that he's inferior by one spot. Also, you're confusing me here. You say you want Dark Pit as a unique character, but you're defending his status as a character similar to Pit. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Just because they haven't been buffed so far doesn't mean they won't. Look at Samus and Zelda. They weren't buffed until extremely recently. There's no reason to think that the clones won't get buffed eventually. Give it some time.

I see. My apologies.

No, you don't seem to understand the very balance changes you're presenting. Dr. Mario already has a problem with his moves being too far launching at low percents, making combos difficult. Increasing their strength just makes that problem worse.

Sakurai had two Mewtwo models to show us before the Wii U game released. Furthermore, he said after Mewtwo released that Lucas would be the only character on the 14th, and then he surprised us with Roy and Ryu. Sakurai has also said that it takes one year, from planning to completion, to complete a character. He's already put out four DLC characters, one of them even being a newcomer with EXTRA INPUTS. Do the math. Granted, he hasn't been busy building the base game at the same time, but there is no way the team started these characters after the game released, there had to have been some planning before release. There are way too many factors involved with the content they've been putting out. Not to mention stages, Mii costumes, Tourney Mode, and the YouTube Replays. No, they had to have been planning this stuff since before the game released, stuff like this isn't completed overnight. They may not have STARTED working on them too heavily, but they had the plans in place, they knew exactly what they were doing. This is common game design sense.

Well, yes. It doesn't matter if the difference is marginal. I don't see why anyone would want Dark Pit to be worse than Pit if he isn't AT LEAST gonna be genuinely a little different. It's a waste of time to include him like that. His downgrades from Pit are completely arbitrary. And again, "they can just change him" means nothing until they show a willingness to specifically change him. Yes, balance patches have been a thing, but they are for BALANCING, they haven't been using them to differentiate clones from the source for the sake of it. So saying "they could do this" means nothing until they show a willingness to. Knowing how tone deaf Japanese dev teams tend to be, Nintendo especially, I don't see that happening.

And I was just highlighting how Dark Pit being weaker than Pit in some areas, when they are using the same types of weapons, doesn't even make much sense considering he is Pit's equal. I would have liked Dark Pit to be his own unique character, though that would be done through making him use different weapon types, like the Dark Pit Staff being his primary weapon, as Pit and Dark Pit can only fight the same if they have the same arsenal. They are equally talented, but giving them different weapons forces them to use different talents to each other, naturally. This is actually really ironic because Sakurai said himself the ONLY REASON he made Dark Pit his own character is because he thought it would be unfitting for him to use the Three Sacred Treasures, since he never did so in Uprising - but making him different to Pit despite using the same weapon types is an even greater stretch of canon.

And I don't see why you act as if "wanting him to be an Alt" is extreme - this isn't me being butthurt over Dark Pit having his own slot because "DURRR THAT WASTES SPACE". As a fan of the character, I don't see why I should want him to be less viable. If he can't have a completely unique moveset, I'd rather him be a Pit alt, so there isn't even an iota of a disadvantage when me and my friends do Pit VS Dark Pit matches (something we tend to like doing because we're total nerds).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dark Pit is the only "clone" that bothers me because the differences are very small.

Lucina and Dr. Mario at least offer differences in their own right.

 

[gyasim]

I mean, Ken is a clone of Ryu, yet they're still loved, so what's the difference between Ryu and Ken vs. Marth and Lucina?

#1 Ken and Ryu are not comparable to Lucina and Marth. I'd compare them to Wolf and Fox, look the same at first glance but they really aren't.
#2 Ryu and Ken appeared at the same time, you didn't have two games to practice Ryu in and then Ken appeared as a worse beginners version of Ryu.
#3 They aren't loved. Even Capcom knows many people hate shotokan clones and differentiated Ryu and Ken even further in SFV.

 

[gyasim]

I hate the idea of "complete uniqueness". It's stupid.
All clones do is give X-Player an alternate way to play their character. It's like having a character with built-in Customs/Equipment. They also make the game more interesting because they bring previously unrelated characters (like Captain and Ganon) closer together, which supports the whole Smash Brothers gimmick, unlike having everyone be unique in which it would be Smash Friends. Huge difference
Also, Semi-Clones are the real wastes of slots.

The day Clones leave Smash is the day I stop buying their games.

So you didn't buy Brawl or 64?

 

[JarBear]

Speaking of Roy, that semi-clone moveset of his was a surprise, wasn't it? Considering Mewtwo and Lucas basically stayed the same when they returned, Roy's changes are unusual...but perhaps there's a reason why.

As we've known for a while, Roy was planned for Brawl and actually had some ambiguous progress made before being cut for time (along with Mewtwo and Doc). One of Brawl's key design choices was taking former clones and Luigifying them. Returners Falco and Ganondorf became semi-clones, Young Link's successor Toon Link followed suit, Luigi himself was barely recognizable from Mario any more, and even newcomers Lucas and Wolf had their own variations on their source characters.

And so...even though Roy didn't make it into Brawl, it seems plausible that he had a semi-clone moveset drawn up as well. Perhaps that's the reason they didn't hesitate to bring him back despite the fanbase's vocal dislike of clones; they already had a semi-clone moveset they never got to use before!

I will say when it came to Brawl, I was pleased with the semi-clone approach with Wolf and Lucas. They shared the similarities with their ... originals ... but had a fair amount of variation to make them "their own." I am especially pleased with Sm4sh that Roy is unique to Marth with his semi-cloneness.

I know Sakurai was concerned about content and having enough slots ... but with DLC, now he can combine Lucina and Dark pit to Marth/Pit and then replace those slots with new ones and we can be done with this. ;P

 

[gyasim]

inb4 King K. Rool is another Marth clone

 

[Munomario777]

You seem to have an incredibly narrow view of how to balance characters. With Dr. Mario, if Sakurai would increase his damage output on a "per move" basis to a particular degree, then combos would become less important to his playstyle, and, thus, he could be balanced. It's very simple, and that's only one of many ways of going about it.

Post-development. Once the game reaches a certain point in development, no more major content can be added before the game is shipped out, and, therefore, plans for things such as DLC can be made. It's very possible that work on DLC was started before Smash 4 was shipped out, and the development team decided to add the arrow graphic into Smash 4's code in an effort to slightly reduce the workload later on. It's the same reason that Mario Golf: World Tour had DLC on the same day it was released. The game was complete, and work on additional content began before the game itself was actually shipped out. And you're crazy if you think Sakurai was "lying" to us about Zero Suit Samus. That was obviously intended to be a 2-second joke.

So, you'd rather have him be an Alt. so he can move up 1 spot on the tier list? I mean, come on. It's one thing to want Dark Pit to be better, but to take him from being a clone to being an Alt. just for the sake of moving him up 1 spot on a tier list? That's a little extreme, no? Dark Pit is inferior to a neglible extent. I'm sure that most of his players don't care that he's inferior by one spot. Also, you're confusing me here. You say you want Dark Pit as a unique character, but you're defending his status as a character similar to Pit. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Just because they haven't been buffed so far doesn't mean they won't. Look at Samus and Zelda. They weren't buffed until extremely recently. There's no reason to think that the clones won't get buffed eventually. Give it some time.

I see. My apologies.

I suspect it might not be that simple. Combos, due to their very nature, tend to have a rather high damage output. They're strings of moves being expertly linked together. For instance, Mario's dthrow > uair > uair can deal 19% of damage, or more if you follow it up with another attack or two. From here, I see two options as far as Doc is concerned (barring decloning him); A) buff his attacks to be equal to the combos that Mario can produce, or B) make them less than that, with the advantage of being easier to use (as you don't have to combo and such). A) gives us the problem of Doc's attacks being ridiculously strong, and thus imbalanced. B) leaves Doc as still weaker than Mario, as he lacks the combos. You could say that he'd be a "beginners version", but then we run into Lucina's problems (he's an unlockable, so you simply cannot "begin" with him).

You do realize that you were just saying that they weren't planning DLC, and are now saying that they did?

I'm sure that Dark Pit mains would be happier playing a better character than a worse one. Dark Pit being an alt isn't a demotion from him being an inferior clone. Sonicbrawler and myself aren't defending his position as a clone/alt/whatever; the point is, if he can't be unique (which he isn't), it would be better to have them be the exact same than have one be inferior to the other.

"This could happen" is irrelevant until it actually does happen.

 

[U-Throw]

I'm out. Maybe you guys are right, but, in the end, it doesn't matter. Sakurai has already said that you're not going to change his mind on the subject, so I don't know why I'm entertaining ideas that will likely never happen.

 

[n8han11]

Isn't it kinda silly to hate a clone for being inferior to the original, especially when they can just be buffed in balance patches? While they may not get new moves in this game, who's to say they can't get some move properties altered at least? Besides, when has being inferior stopped any clone before?

 

[U-Throw]

Isn't it kinda silly to hate a clone for being inferior to the original, especially when they can just be buffed in balance patches? While they may not get new moves in this game, who's to say they can't get some move properties altered at least? Besides, when has being inferior stopped any clone before?

You try to tell them, and they just don't listen. Trust me, you're not going to win this argument, at least, not in a good way. No matter how hard you try, they'll just say, "Well, what if I want to play as this clone without..." or, "Well, it would be better if..." and other similar things. Back out now while you still can.

 

[n8han11]

You try to tell them, and they just don't listen. Trust me, you're not going to win this argument, at least, not in a good way. No matter how hard you try, they'll just say, "Well, what if I want to play as this clone without..." or, "Well, it would be better if..." and other similar things. Back out now while you still can.

Fair enough. I'm leaving before it gets bad...

 

[Munomario777]

I don't hate the clones for being inferior. I hate the fact that they are inferior. I like Dark Pit as a character. I think he deserves to be on equal footing with Pit, or to be unique from Pit. If I hated the characters, I wouldn't be arguing for them to be buffed (whether it be through being an alt or being decloned). If Dark Pit was on equal footing with Pit (i.e. as an alternate costume), then I'd be cool with it. Heck, if Dark Pit was different from Pit but actually had a purpose (such as an alternate, equally viable playstyle), I'd be cool with it. They could be buffed, but until they actually are buffed, the possibility has no relevance. Again, I bring up Sonic 2006. It could have been polished more, before or after its release, but that doesn't excuse the (lack of) quality present.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I actually like the clones the way they are now, but a Luigification would be welcome on Smash 5 (if there is one)!
If Sakurai used a Doctor-based moveset on Dr. Mario I would like it, I even made a moveset on Miiverse.

 

[AceGamer]

I actually like the clones the way they are now, but a Luigification would be welcome on Smash 5 (if there is one)!
If Sakurai used a Doctor-based moveset on Dr. Mario I would like it, I even made a moveset on Miiverse.

You like that the current clones give you no reason to use them over their originals besides liking them more? Lol seriously though, Lucina is just Marth with less range and training wheels, she doesn't have any pros to using her over Marth. Dark Pit doesn't have any pros to using him over Pit either besides being edgey X). Dr. Mario hits harder but is slower and has a worse recovery too and that doesn't help in a game that's mostly dominated by speed

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

You like that the current clones give you no reason to use them over their originals besides liking them more? Lol seriously though, Lucina is just Marth with less range and training wheels, she doesn't have any pros to using her over Marth. Dark Pit doesn't have any pros to using him over Pit either besides being edgey X). Dr. Mario hits harder but is slower and has a worse recovery too and that doesn't help in a game that's mostly dominated by speed

Just mah opinion
I don't like Lucina as I do like Marth, despite not maining him anymore. She takes less skill to use than him, and landing a tipper is satisfying as heck. Dr. Mario is still good, and faster than most powerhouse characters. Why should I bother with his recovery when he gets PILLS!!! Not, seriously though, I like that they can be used as a option to your main. If I don't like that Mario doesn't hits so hard, I can play as him in a more powerful version, but losing a bit of speed and recovery. I think Lucina can be useful to start learning Marth's Moveset, and then you switch to him when feeling complete. Dark Pit is edgy enough X)
Also,

I actually like the clones the way they are now, but a Luigification would be welcome on Smash 5 (if there is one)!

I said the clones are already good as they are, since you can play them on other way differently than the originals, but I want them to be different on Smash 5. Read the text before calling me out

 

[ThyShallBeDone]

I'll just have to say it again... I don't mind Dr. Mario. I mean really. What could you have done to change him? So yeah... He's a neat little addition.

Lucina and Dark Pit on the other hand? Just... No. My main problem is that both of them have the potential for a unique move set. I'd rather they not be included in the game than be clones.

This isn't Street Fighter. You not dealing with original characters.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

He may have said that there was no DLC planned, but Sakurai has lied to us before ().

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke

Does this one really needs an explanation? You speak about using common sense, so start using it for once.

Regarding DLC, Sakurai well stated that he wasn't against it but he wanted to deliver a complete product before starting to consider it, and I say he delivered in that regard. It is obvious that Smash 4 was shipped with the ability of incorporating downloadable content but I don't see how this contradicts his previous stance; the plans for DLC may have as well begun not so long before release rather than being there since the very beginning.
So when you say that he "lied" to us, it seems more like a critical reading failure from your part. The attempts to twist his words don't help either.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Dark Pit is literally a clone in Uprising, people should've expected him to be a clone here. Lucina I can't say since she uses Marth's name and style at the beginning of Awakening, and changes when she's revealed completely and joins your team/family.

 

[ChikoLad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke

Does this one really needs an explanation? You speak about using common sense, so start using it for once.

Regarding DLC, Sakurai well stated that he wasn't against it but he wanted to deliver a complete product before starting to consider it, and I say he delivered in that regard. It is obvious that Smash 4 was shipped with the ability of incorporating downloadable content but I don't see how this contradicts his previous stance; the plans for DLC may have as well begun not so long before release rather than being there since the very beginning.
So when you say that he "lied" to us, it seems more like a critical reading failure from your part. The attempts to twist his words don't help either.

The joke utilised a lie. I know it's a joke, but it still required a lie, and people genuinely thought she was cut for a moment. My point stands.

The comments about being open to DLC were made early in development. He had to have planned it at least a few months before the game came out though, considering the amount of content that is already out, and the fact the game was shipped with the ability to host DLC.

 

[gyasim]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke

Does this one really needs an explanation? You speak about using common sense, so start using it for once.

Regarding DLC, Sakurai well stated that he wasn't against it but he wanted to deliver a complete product before starting to consider it, and I say he delivered in that regard. It is obvious that Smash 4 was shipped with the ability of incorporating downloadable content but I don't see how this contradicts his previous stance; the plans for DLC may have as well begun not so long before release rather than being there since the very beginning.
So when you say that he "lied" to us, it seems more like a critical reading failure from your part. The attempts to twist his words don't help either.

I've argued with this guy on here twice. He or she was standoffish the whole time and ignored what I said and continued to argue. They are the type of person that never admits when they're in the wrong, even when they clearly are.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

The joke utilised a lie. I know it's a joke, but it still required a lie, and people genuinely thought she was cut for a moment. My point stands.

The comments about being open to DLC were made early in development. He had to have planned it at least a few months before the game came out though, considering the amount of content that is already out, and the fact the game was shipped with the ability to host DLC.

However, "lying" as part of a joke and lying, as in deliberately giving misinformation with malicious intent and without clarifying it at all, are two different things, so you can't use it as an example to prove that he lies through his teeth every time he addresses his readers and viewers.
It's the context that makes all the difference. A joke is just a joke.

 

[ChikoLad]

However, "lying" as part of a joke and lying, as in deliberately giving misinformation with malicious intent and without clarifying it at all, are two different things, so you can't use it as an example to prove that he lies through his teeth every time he addresses his readers and viewers.
It's the context that makes all the difference. A joke is just a joke.

At what point did I say Sakurai lied maliciously? If anything, Sakurai tells white lies. Not all of the time, but he lies to steer speculation off course, so that we can be hyped later on when he reveals stuff.

I'm not saying he is a two faced ******* or something. I'm just saying he lies from time to time, and that's an indisputable fact. It was you who decided to interpret it as me saying he is lying with malicious intent, I never so much as implied he does that.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

I don't mind clone characters but Dark Pit has 4 differences counting the Final Smash, he might as well be an alt
Just like make him do a little more damage in the air or SOMETHING

 

[DonkaFjord]

People who want clones removed for the sake of not having clones seem kinda silly because no one benefits from the loss in content and (small but still existent) dev time.

It also seems weird people are fine with clones if they are different enough. That is pretty vague and where do we draw the line on where a clone is different enough and where it is not. Case and point is it will be different for everyone and every character has its fans.

At what point did I say Sakurai lied maliciously? If anything, Sakurai tells white lies. Not all of the time, but he lies to steer speculation off course, so that we can be hyped later on when he reveals stuff.
I'm not saying he is a two faced ******* or something. I'm just saying he lies from time to time, and that's an indisputable fact. It was you who decided to interpret it as me saying he is lying with malicious intent, I never so much as implied he does that.

Remember he is also filtered through translation and is trying to keep parts of the game a set before reveal so his Japanese may come off more mysterious or trying to misguide or misdirect but when it is translated it may come off as a solid definite answer when it isn't. Japanese is a very nuanced language where things can have several meanings or plays on words and translators are just translating what they understand is right- ember they have no idea what's happening in the game design first hand. So some, not all, but some is translation issues.

 

[Munomario777]

People who want clones removed for the sake of not having clones seem kinda silly because no one benefits from the loss in content and (small but still existent) dev time.

It also seems weird people are fine with clones if they are different enough. That is pretty vague and where do we draw the line on where a clone is different enough and where it is not. Case and point is it will be different for everyone and every character has its fans.

"For the sake of not having clones" isn't the reasoning here. The reasoning is that the clones are inferior to the original characters, so mains of the clones would be better off if the clone were an alternate costume (as opposed to being worse as a clone). I'm all for clones, if they're done well. However, these were not (in my opinion).

Of course it's a matter of opinion. There's no getting around that. Every character has its fans, but said fans would be better off if they were an alternate costume of the superior character. (This dilemma could be somewhat resolved with balancing as well, but that's never going to end up perfect.)

 

[Shadow Huan]

all I know

is that it is and always will be

completely inexcusable for Ganondorf to be a Falcon clone.

I have no idea how someone who comes up with such wildly inventive movesets is still doing that with those characters.

at least all the other clones are from the same universe >.>

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

"For the sake of not having clones" isn't the reasoning here. The reasoning is that the clones are inferior to the original characters, so mains of the clones would be better off if the clone were an alternate costume (as opposed to being worse as a clone). I'm all for clones, if they're done well. However, these were not (in my opinion).

Of course it's a matter of opinion. There's no getting around that. Every character has its fans, but said fans would be better off if they were an alternate costume of the superior character. (This dilemma could be somewhat resolved with balancing as well, but that's never going to end up perfect.)

Relegating any separate character to just an alternate skin of another character with barely any/no uniqueness of their own is just a slap in the face to the fans of both characters moreso than Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone is. Wario, Little Mac, Villager, Robin, and Wi Fit Trainer are perfectly fine since the alternates are either another outfit that does not affect their battle style at all or are gender swaps, and the gender swaps themselves are no different and reflect the characters themselves nicely. Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings' case is just cringe-worthy; seven distinct characters functioning as mere color swaps for one other character of whom they have no similarities with? If I had to chose between clones or other characters as alternates (even if the clones have sparse differences from their originals), I'll chose clones above alternates a hundred times over forevermore. That is all I will say on this subject.

 

[Munomario777]

Relegating any separate character to just an alternate skin of another character with barely any/no uniqueness of their own is just a slap in the face to the fans of both characters moreso than Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone is. Wario, Little Mac, Villager, Robin, and Wi Fit Trainer are perfectly fine since the alternates are either another outfit that does not affect their battle style at all or are gender swaps, and the gender swaps themselves are no different and reflect the characters themselves nicely. Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings' case is just cringe-worthy; seven distinct characters functioning as mere color swaps for one other character of whom they have no similarities with? If I had to chose between clones or other characters as alternates (even if the clones have sparse differences from their originals), I'll chose clones above alternates a hundred times over forevermore. That is all I will say on this subject.

I'd choose clones too... except these clones are just less viable than their original characters (and would thus be more viable as an alternate costume). If the clones were as viable as the original character (or close to it... barring pointless clones like Dark Pit with only like three minor changes), I'd take clones any day.

 

[Frostwraith]

Hey all. I'm the author of the article. You may have seen me around before in the site, so I'll spare the introductions.

Now to answer some comments, but before that, I ask you to note again that part of the article derives from my own interpretation of what could have motivated Sakurai and the development team to make the decisions they did in regards to clones.

I have no real problem with semi-clone characters in of themselves and prefer them over straight-up clones, considering how they tend to take much less development time than non-clone characters whilst providing a more distinct flavour than straight-up clones (regardless, Lucina, Dr. Mario and Dark Pit were never going to be more different than they were)

(It's kinda a shame Alph couln't get promoted like Lucina, Dark Pit and the Doc.)

Indeed, it is a shame that Alph wasn't promoted.

Again, I reaffirm the fact that clones aren't given as much priority as any other functionalities in the game.

I personally hate when people excuse Sakurai's design laziness as "Lucina posed as Marth in Awakening, so her being a clone makes sense!" and "Dark Pit is a clone of Pit in Uprising, so him being a clone makes sense!". No, they're just poorly executed clones. Lucina is basically a transgendered, tipperless Marth and Dark Pit is basically a goth Pit with red contacts.

They have so little move variation that they play nearly identically. If they were something like Falco, where they have a cloned moveset, but different attributes on all their moves, I doubt we'd be complaining. It's how similar they are that irks me, not that they're in at all.

It's not laziness, as much as it is that the characters weren't considered as unique enough additions for full-fledged movesets.

This in regards to Dark Pit and Lucina. From what has been discovered about Alph, it's easy to extrapolate the same was applied for Lucina and Dark Pit.

The Smash 4 clones were initially intended as alts, with the option of them being clones as something under consideration, depending on how development would go. A mere possibility rather than something obligatory to the project.

Lucina and Dark Pit were purposely designed as being very similar to their counterparts in order to be a lesser investment in regards to workload put into them. That way, resources were put in the other intended aspects of the game, with the clones being a bonus addition made in spare time as a form of additional fanservice.

If I'm a fan of a character with unique moveset potential, I'd rather the character not get in at all over being a clone.


Ganondorf is easily the biggest example of wasted potential due to being made a clone.

That's one way of looking at things and one I can sympathize with.

However, there are valid reasons solely from a game development perspective on why Ganondorf was made a clone and why he remains as such in later entries of the series.

I do understand why people want Ganondorf to have a moveset that better reflects his fighting style(s) in the Zelda series. However, I also see merit in keeping Ganondorf as is.

I'm a big fan of the Zelda series and Ganondorf himself, so I can really say this is one complicated matter.

Speaking of Ganondorf, I'm actually planning an article elaborating his moveset and design choices in Smash and how they relate to the Zelda series and his character.

You can look forward to that.

Speaking of Roy, that semi-clone moveset of his was a surprise, wasn't it? Considering Mewtwo and Lucas basically stayed the same when they returned, Roy's changes are unusual...but perhaps there's a reason why.

As we've known for a while, Roy was planned for Brawl and actually had some ambiguous progress made before being cut for time (along with Mewtwo and Doc). One of Brawl's key design choices was taking former clones and Luigifying them. Returners Falco and Ganondorf became semi-clones, Young Link's successor Toon Link followed suit, Luigi himself was barely recognizable from Mario any more, and even newcomers Lucas and Wolf had their own variations on their source characters.

And so...even though Roy didn't make it into Brawl, it seems plausible that he had a semi-clone moveset drawn up as well. Perhaps that's the reason they didn't hesitate to bring him back despite the fanbase's vocal dislike of clones; they already had a semi-clone moveset they never got to use before!

That's something I thought of before and agree with.

In the same way features like 8P Smash or Final Smashes, it's possible that some of the changes Roy got in Smash 4 had been drafted for Brawl.

all I know

is that it is and always will be

completely inexcusable for Ganondorf to be a Falcon clone.

I have no idea how someone who comes up with such wildly inventive movesets is still doing that with those characters.

at least all the other clones are from the same universe >.>

Please, read the article!

I do elaborate a bit on Ganondorf and possibly why he remains a clone.

As I said to @ P PhantomShab , I plan on writing an article on Ganondorf and his moveset in Smash. I'm a big fan of the character and would like to write more about him and the pros and cons of each side of the Falcondorf debate, as well as my position on the whole thing.

I don't mind clone characters but Dark Pit has 4 differences counting the Final Smash, he might as well be an alt
Just like make him do a little more damage in the air or SOMETHING

As I said in the article, the reason why Lucina and Dark Pit have so little changes was to avoid having too much workload put on them, so resources would go on the actually planned aspects of the game.

The main distinguishing aspect of Dark Pit being a clone was to show more of his individuality as a character that wouldn't be possible with him as a Pit alt, mainly the Final Smash.

Do note that his Final Smash is cloned from Zelda, with identical damage, knockback intensity and angle, and hitbox data.

As the changes were easy to make, they didn't take a significant chunk of workload from the project.

It bears repeating that those characters were intentionally designed in a minimalist mindset, only being very slight variations on existing movesets. Even the balancing process for those characters was much smaller compared to the other characters in the roster, including DLC characters.

It's not laziness in the sense that they didn't do much to them because they didn't want to, but did what they could to avoid spending resources on initially unplanned content, something that would compromise the entire project.

This is why Alph and Rock Pikmin were cut. They were considered to be implemented, but they since they didn't have the resources to viably do so while maintaining the integrity of the project, they were dropped out. Alph remained an alt, Rock Pikmin are nowhere to be seen.

This isn't a simple issue. This is all about project management.

Okay, that's all for now. I'm a bit tired, but I hope I clarified some things!

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'd love to see an article by you on Ganondorf, @ Frostwraith .

 

[DustyPumpkin]

As I said in the article, the reason why Lucina and Dark Pit have so little changes was to avoid having too much workload put on them, so resources would go on the actually planned aspects of the game.

The main distinguishing aspect of Dark Pit being a clone was to show more of his individuality as a character that wouldn't be possible with him as a Pit alt, mainly the Final Smash.

Do note that his Final Smash is cloned from Zelda, with identical damage, knockback intensity and angle, and hitbox data.

As the changes were easy to make, they didn't take a significant chunk of workload from the project.

It bears repeating that those characters were intentionally designed in a minimalist mindset, only being very slight variations on existing movesets. Even the balancing process for those characters was much smaller compared to the other characters in the roster, including DLC characters.

It's not laziness in the sense that they didn't do much to them because they didn't want to, but did what they could to avoid spending resources on initially unplanned content, something that would compromise the entire project.

This is why Alph and Rock Pikmin were cut. They were considered to be implemented, but they since they didn't have the resources to viably do so while maintaining the integrity of the project, they were dropped out. Alph remained an alt, Rock Pikmin are nowhere to be seen.

This isn't a simple issue. This is all about project management.

Okay, that's all for now. I'm a bit tired, but I hope I clarified some things!

Changing a few extra things for Dark Pit's Air moves is pretty minimalist thing, it both makes a major different approach while keeping a the overall same style, this also references his time as independent flyer in Kid Icarus, they also could at least given him the harming ^B which itself would be more in character an easy to do.

 

[PhantomShab]

Speaking of Ganondorf, I'm actually planning an article elaborating his moveset and design choices in Smash and how they relate to the Zelda series and his character.

Basically an article defending his clone status. I think I'll pass.