Social Sora Unlocks the Door! The Sora Social Thread

[Michael the Spikester]

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1450855113015267339

You guys came off lucky.

Sora was apparently last minute and Kazuya meant to be the last fighter.

 

[Lyncario]

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1450855113015267339

You guys came off lucky.

Sora was apparently last minute and Kazuya meant to be the last fighter.

This is pretty much the exact same way Kingdom Hearts came to be. This isn't luck at this point, this is just fate.

 

[Bobthealligator]

Alright people, I got something crazy for you.

Smash Bros. has seven characters who are or can become princesses.

1. Peach
2. Daisy
3. Rosalina (Who has been referred to as a princess in official guides)
4. Zelda
5. Lucina
6. Robin (Who can become a princess by marrying Chrom)
7. Corrin

But

Even More Crazy

13 Characters who have canonically and willingly performed evil actions. This does not count characters who have performed immoral actions while not in control of themselves (Ryu and Richter for example) or characters without a moral compass/who operate on instinct (such as non-sentient Pokemon, Dark Samus - who is made of Phazon, which has no moral compass, or Piranha Plant)

1. Bowser
2. Bowser Jr.
3. King K. Rool
4. Ganondorf
5. Meta Knight
6. King Dedede
7. Wolf
8. Mewtwo
9. Wario
10. Dark Pit (While not evil, he willingly joins the Forces of Nature, whose leader, Viridi, is trying to wipe humanity from existence.)
11. Ridley
12. Sephiroth
13. Kazuya

Seven lights
Thirteen Darknesses


...they absolutely ****ing did this on purpose, I refuse to believe otherwise. One of those two is a coincidence, but both? Definitely on purpose.

Also Female Byleth can become a princess.
Corrin could also be considered evil under the same logic as Dark Pit, seeing as how they committed genocide due to them lacking the common sense to see that there was actually many simpler solutions than invading an entire country just to turn their adopted father into a co-op monster.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Also Female Byleth can become a princess.
Corrin could also be considered evil under the same logic as Dark Pit, seeing as how they committed genocide due to them lacking the common sense to see that there was actually many simpler solutions than invading an entire country just to turn their adopted father into a co-op monster.

Isn't the whole point of Fates choosing your own path?

Do all routes end with that? If not, then you could make an argument of the version in Smash is the one from that timeline.

 

[PLATINUM7]

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1450855113015267339

You guys came off lucky.

Sora was apparently last minute and Kazuya meant to be the last fighter.

DaybreakHorizon had theorised something like that some time ago. Maybe they were the real leaker all along.

Still, so stoked we managed to get Sora.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1450855113015267339

You guys came off lucky.

Sora was apparently last minute and Kazuya meant to be the last fighter.

Bro get out of here with that condescending tone lmao

I theorized this **** back in December 2019 it was always something in the cards, even if it started out as nothing more than a joke and a prayer.

 

[StormC]

Very late, but a big congratulations to Sora fans. While I do like Kingdom Hearts, I always thought Sora was an impossible choice. I'm very glad to be proven wrong. He was the perfect final reveal not just to DLC and Ultimate, but to this 20+ year era of Smash in general. Glad you guys never gave up hope.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

When I first started playing around with Sora, I didn't exactly like how slow he is overall. Even his run speed felt poor if someone like Snake can outrun him. I decided to fix that dilemma, as shown below.

Spoiler: Attribute edits

            walk_accel_mul: 0.12 -> 0.21
            walk_accel_add: 0.04 -> 0
            walk_speed_max: 0.82 -> 1.155
              ground_brake: 0.086 -> 0.1
                dash_speed: 1.78 -> 2.15
             run_accel_add: 0.04 -> 0.12
             run_speed_max: 1.58 -> 2.3
            jump_initial_y: 16.5 -> 16.775
                    jump_y: 30 -> 30.5
               mini_jump_y: 17.2 -> 18
           air_accel_x_mul: 0.086 -> 0.1
           air_accel_x_add: 0.01 -> 0.05
        air_speed_x_stable: 0.96 -> 1.25
               air_brake_x: 0.012 -> 0.04
               air_accel_y: 0.064 -> 0.06
        air_speed_y_stable: 1.44 -> 1.2
damage_fly_top_air_accel_y: 0.07056 -> 0.069375
               air_brake_y: 0.014 -> 0.015
              dive_speed_y: 2.304 -> 2.4
    air_ground_speed_brake: 0.036 -> 0.12
      shoot_walk_accel_mul: 0.096 -> 0.168
      shoot_walk_accel_add: 0.032 -> 0
      shoot_walk_speed_max: 0.82 -> 1.155
        shoot_dash_speed_f: 1.424 -> 1.72
        shoot_dash_speed_b: 1.1392 -> 1.376

Of course, these changes do end up improving Sora's air game, edge-guarding abilities, AND overall recovery. But he's still a lightweight fighter, and the increased floatiness makes him more vulnerable to getting KO'd vertically by a meteor smash.

 

[Vector Victor]

I don't know why, but for the life of me, I keep thinking Sora's side B is going to be Strike Raid.

 

[Altais]

Edited the OP a little bit. Still working on improving it, but I've just hadn't had the time or energy lately.

 

[ForsakenM]

Crazy to see this thread having no posts since Friday. Maybe this site really did lose that much traffic.

This is a huge win for just about everyone, even the haters. Just a quick summary on my thoughts.

• Sora/KH Fan: This is obvious.
• Disney fans: to a lesser extent, but I mean, you got something in Smash boys and girls. Who thought THAT was gonna happen.
• People who's character seems difficult to get in: Sora is Mr. Red Tape Incarnate, and he almost didn't happen, but Disney got their **** together and here we are. If Sakurai can make SORA of all characters happen, your character can happen too. Remember that Sora was #1 on the Smash Ballot, so if your character gets a ton of vocal and public support it's an inevitable thing that will happen...unless you want an MK character. Then you get hype for that Warner Bros. Smash clone.
• People who think their character is difficult due to representation issues: Sakurai was down to clown with the only Disney thing from Sora being the Kingdom Key and his original design, something I thought would cause issues as Sakurai is a stickler for proper representation in Smash which would require Donald and Goofy at his side. This proves that Sakurai is willing to bend a bit on big requests if it means making it a reality.
• People who think their character's company won't play ball: Disney actually changed their damn minds last minute. If a titan like Disney realizes that they can't miss this Smash opportunity, I'm sure your will more than happily play ball...unless your company is NetherRealm Studios, in which WB has a game in the works for you.
• Haters: So I've had seen very little hate for the spikey-haired boy with yellow clown shoes and his oversized plot device, but I know that it is there. Two ways to look at this: 1. He's already in and barring something like a Definitive Edition it's hard to tell if he would ever be able to return and 2. Everything I already mentioned above applies to you guys too, whether you are being ridiculous on the internet or not.

Outside of this, I only have two hot takes left for things to say about Sora's inclusion.

The first is that I've realized that Kingdom Hearts was never that great of a franchise: it has characters that you can become attached to for sure, but the writing, dialogue, pacing, level design, some game design aspects, minigames...all of it in retrospect is rather underwhelming. I think a lot of people like myself grew up with it and loved playing in Disney Worlds and teaming up with Disney and Square characters to beat up bad guys and, since we were gullible kids, nothing else in the game mattered that much. The only things that hold up over time are the attachment to characters through witnessing their trauma, Yoko 'The Queen' Shimomura's ridiculous talent in the music department, and the combat...and the combat varies in it's quality between each title as well, with some of them being excellent and some being downright awful.

I just had a friend play through KH1 and KH2 again in honor of Sora's inclusion, and he said that both games were 'masterpieces' multiple times before replaying them. Afterwards he revoked the titles and admitted something I kept bringing up, which is that it turns out they are rather flawed in multiple places, but overall are not bad games...just mediocre. I mean, Atlantica alone brings both games down in the experience, and that's only one world with it's own issues.

The second and last one is that, even though I was HEAVILY catered to with this inclusion by the power of nostalgia and excellent music, Sora's inclusion really doesn't do much for me personally. It's funny, because I included him in my Top Ten, but even with my freak out over Hand and Hand in Smash and humming along with every song during the presentation, my stance remains the same that his inclusion was less for me as it was for others and for my past self who loved the series unconditionally. I always said the gap between Geno and the rest on my list was massive, but I never realized how massive it was until Sora got in and I played as him.

I'm definitely in the minority here, but Sora's inclusion is not enough for me to want to play Smash over NASB. I know it likely is for like 90% of the population or something close to that, but not for me: I value the gameplay and openness and understanding that NASB and it's dev team offers much more than this big final inclusion to Ultimate. I already hit up the Workshop for Rivals more than I played Smash, and with stuff like Fraymakers and now a WB platform fighter in the works, I just don't see a reason to play Smash for longer than a couple of sessions with friends.

Here's to hoping that Ultimate Deluxe happens and it's just a landslide of big requests so that both myself and all my friends can beat the **** out of each other with the characters we've wanted for over a decade. Maybe that will change my mind, but even so I still hope the next Smash gets good rollback netcode and speeds up the movement just a little bit more.

 

[GhostRoy]

Crazy to see this thread having no posts since Friday. Maybe this site really did lose that much traffic.

I can't speak for all but I've been non stop playing him daily online and against roomates/friends since release not really much to say now that smash is done just a happy guy now that I can enjoy smash with the only character I wanted now in the game. Also this was a support thread for his inclusion so most people have moved over to other threads/sites to talk about other things now that he has earned the included title.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

• Disney fans: to a lesser extent, but I mean, you got something in Smash boys and girls. Who thought THAT was gonna happen.
• People who's character seems difficult to get in: Sora is Mr. Red Tape Incarnate, and he almost didn't happen, but Disney got their **** together and here we are. If Sakurai can make SORA of all characters happen, your character can happen too. Remember that Sora was #1 on the Smash Ballot, so if your character gets a ton of vocal and public support it's an inevitable thing that will happen...unless you want an MK character. Then you get hype for that Warner Bros. Smash clone.
• People who think their character is difficult due to representation issues: Sakurai was down to clown with the only Disney thing from Sora being the Kingdom Key and his original design, something I thought would cause issues as Sakurai is a stickler for proper representation in Smash which would require Donald and Goofy at his side. This proves that Sakurai is willing to bend a bit on big requests if it means making it a reality.
• People who think their character's company won't play ball: Disney actually changed their damn minds last minute. If a titan like Disney realizes that they can't miss this Smash opportunity, I'm sure your will more than happily play ball...unless your company is NetherRealm Studios, in which WB has a game in the works for you.
• Haters: So I've had seen very little hate for the spikey-haired boy with yellow clown shoes and his oversized plot device, but I know that it is there. Two ways to look at this: 1. He's already in and barring something like a Definitive Edition it's hard to tell if he would ever be able to return and 2. Everything I already mentioned above applies to you guys too, whether you are being ridiculous on the internet or not.

Now watch as this is all an excuse for folks that wants Goku in Smash 6 even though despite Disney content that Sora originated as a video game character, the one and only true rule when it comes to Smash.

Why don't folks just ask Goku for NASB instead in that case?

 

[GhostRoy]

Why don't folks just ask Goku for NASB instead in that case?

too busy asking for characters already missing from the current roster that should be there

 

[Michael the Spikester]

too busy asking for characters already missing from the current roster that should be there

The fact Sora didn't come with any Disney content with the most being the mickey keychain should be an indication to those folks that Smash is for video game characters only.

 

[GhostRoy]

The fact Sora didn't come with any Disney content with the most being the mickey keychain should be an indication to those folks that Smash is for video game characters only.

in my opinion it could confirm one of 3 things, 1 - Nintendo/Sakurai did not want it included or saw the need due to not being video game originated. 2 - Nintendo wanted/pushed for it but Disney said no or was too expensive. 3 - Both parties said no.

 

[Megadoomer]

In my playthrough of Kingdom Hearts 2, I just reached the point where three particularly random clips happened:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Some parts of the combat haven't aged well (it's unclear when you'll launch towards an opponent or flail around wildly; having to use AP for things like guarding or being able to see the enemy's health bar seems like a bizarre choice), but I'm enjoying it so far. I think I'm in the second half of the game, since new missions have popped up in all of the Disney worlds. I haven't played Kingdom Hearts 2 before, but I'm guessing that most of them properly introduce the remaining members of Organization XIII before the final battle. (the levels based on the Little Mermaid and the Lion King seem like exceptions; I can't see Saix lurking around and trying to ruin the song Under The Sea, or Xemnas turned into a lion and delivering serious monologues about darkness even though he looks like a big cat)

Also, they aren't trying very hard to hide the identity of DiZ - Christopher Lee's voice is unmistakable.

I'm looking forward to Birth By Sleep - by my understanding, Leonard Nimoy voices Xehanort, while Mark Hamill voices a mentor figure for the heroes, so that will be entertaining. (I don't know anything about the plot, or which Disney worlds they visit)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The fact Sora didn't come with any Disney content with the most being the mickey keychain should be an indication to those folks that Smash is for video game characters only.

To add to this, Nintendo likely only had permission to use the characters whom were original to Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Bowser D.X]

Really like playing so far. Definitely going to have a go at maining him at least for a little while.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Planet-Neptune]

Any notable placements with Sora? I've only seen Day 1 tournament friendlies and some twitter combo vids. How's he doing competitively?

 

[Double0Groove]

in my opinion it could confirm one of 3 things, 1 - Nintendo/Sakurai did not want it included or saw the need due to not being video game originated. 2 - Nintendo wanted/pushed for it but Disney said no or was too expensive. 3 - Both parties said no.

I'd put my money on either 1 or 3.

Any notable placements with Sora? I've only seen Day 1 tournament friendlies and some twitter combo vids. How's he doing competitively?

Idk, most people dropped him almost immediately due to him being floaty. I've seen Tweek do a locals tournament using Sora almost exclusively, so if you want to see that in action:

I don't follow him often, but Pinkfresh has also put his current main on the bleachers in order to focus on improving his Sora. I've heard Wadi consider it, but nothing really concrete as far as he's concerned. That's all I know from the tourney scene.

• People who think their character is difficult due to representation issues: Sakurai was down to clown with the only Disney thing from Sora being the Kingdom Key and his original design, something I thought would cause issues as Sakurai is a stickler for proper representation in Smash which would require Donald and Goofy at his side. This proves that Sakurai is willing to bend a bit on big requests if it means making it a reality.

I still think it's wild that people thought this would be a legitimate reason as to why Sakurai wouldn't want Sora to join. Out of the listing, I'd just like to correct this specific point by saying that this was, and continues to be, a 100% bogus argument. This was never a reason to be concerned with as a KH fan OR as a fan of a character with a similar background. It was completely irrelevant since Joker's inclusion and the final nail to that coffin was Mai Shiranui's exclusion from the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

As far as I can tell, Sora does have one problem that should be kept in mind. His f-air has a hard time landing all three hits if his opponent is a fast-faller with high gravity (such as Fox). And while this isn't a problem under normal circumstances, Sora's neutral attack and 3-hit f-tilt can both be blocked in-between hits (even if you do land the first hit) if his target takes less knockback than normal (usually thanks to the Super Mushroom).

 

[ForsakenM]

I still think it's wild that people thought this would be a legitimate reason as to why Sakurai wouldn't want Sora to join. Out of the listing, I'd just like to correct this specific point by saying that this was, and continues to be, a 100% bogus argument. This was never a reason to be concerned with as a KH fan OR as a fan of a character with a similar background. It was completely irrelevant since Joker's inclusion and the final nail to that coffin was Mai Shiranui's exclusion from the game.

Not really. Joker is a character that can swap Personas and has a massive list of things he can do that don't require his team.

Contrast this with Sora who has had many abilities tied to his party members. It's actually smart of them to use KH1 Sora as he is the least-tied to his party members in terms of abilities. It seems they would have had to have gone with a versions that is the most independent of any of his partners throughout the series, and for that the best examples are KH1 Sora, DDD Sora (who looks like KH1 Sora), and KH3 Sora. For nostalgia and likely a number of design factors, they chose KH1 Sora.

I will agree that both characters heavily utilize teamwork and yet can function without them, but with Disney being such a big part of KH it always depended on whether or not Disney would allow many Disney elements to be involved and whether or not Sakurai would find a Disney-less Sora to be a good representation of the series. Clearly Disney wouldn't budge and I think Sakurai made sacrifices to what he would normally consider to be proper representation so as to grant the biggest request he's ever had.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Not really. Joker is a character that can swap Personas and has a massive list of things he can do that don't require his team.

Contrast this with Sora who has had many abilities tied to his party members. It's actually smart of them to use KH1 Sora as he is the least-tied to his party members in terms of abilities. It seems they would have had to have gone with a versions that is the most independent of any of his partners throughout the series, and for that the best examples are KH1 Sora, DDD Sora (who looks like KH1 Sora), and KH3 Sora. For nostalgia and likely a number of design factors, they chose KH1 Sora.

I will agree that both characters heavily utilize teamwork and yet can function without them, but with Disney being such a big part of KH it always depended on whether or not Disney would allow many Disney elements to be involved and whether or not Sakurai would find a Disney-less Sora to be a good representation of the series. Clearly Disney wouldn't budge and I think Sakurai made sacrifices to what he would normally consider to be proper representation so as to grant the biggest request he's ever had.

Also if he included KH3 Sora he would be more broken than Smash 4 Bayonetta

 

[ForsakenM]

Also if he included KH3 Sora he would be more broken than Smash 4 Bayonetta

His moveset would have had to include the Disney Attractions, which is probably a big fat not happening and that's one thing we can be happy for Disney's stinginess.

 

[Double0Groove]

Not really. Joker is a character that can swap Personas and has a massive list of things he can do that don't require his team.

Contrast this with Sora who has had many abilities tied to his party members. It's actually smart of them to use KH1 Sora as he is the least-tied to his party members in terms of abilities. It seems they would have had to have gone with a versions that is the most independent of any of his partners throughout the series, and for that the best examples are KH1 Sora, DDD Sora (who looks like KH1 Sora), and KH3 Sora. For nostalgia and likely a number of design factors, they chose KH1 Sora.

I will agree that both characters heavily utilize teamwork and yet can function without them, but with Disney being such a big part of KH it always depended on whether or not Disney would allow many Disney elements to be involved and whether or not Sakurai would find a Disney-less Sora to be a good representation of the series. Clearly Disney wouldn't budge and I think Sakurai made sacrifices to what he would normally consider to be proper representation so as to grant the biggest request he's ever had.

I disagree on the basis that the SMT demons are actually one of the two most consistent defining aspect of the series. The same arguments used to describe the importance for Donald and Goofy as representation can easily apply to the SMT demons. Especially in the case of Persona 5, where it's actively impossible to avoid any form of acquisition or confrontation with them.

With all that being said, If Joker didn't need to reference his series most notable aspect with his inclusion, choosing instead to draw reference from Persona's original content exclusively, then it only stood to reason that the Animated Disney content wouldn't be needed either. That's not even considering the fact that Sakurai went on record to state that he only wanted to include Video game original characters in Smash, which only ever pointed to Sora coming exclusively with KH original content. Most people assume that Disney prevented Nintendo from freely using those IPs, but there's more than enough evidence that points to Nintendo and Sakurai just not wanting Donald and Goofy. The argument just doesn't hold any weight.

 

[ForsakenM]

I disagree on the basis that the SMT demons are actually one of the two most consistent defining aspect of the series. The same arguments used to describe the importance for Donald and Goofy as representation can easily apply to the SMT demons. Especially in the case of Persona 5, where it's actively impossible to avoid any form of acquisition or confrontation with them.

With all that being said, If Joker didn't need to reference his series most notable aspect with his inclusion, choosing instead to draw reference from Persona's original content exclusively, then it only stood to reason that the Animated Disney content wouldn't be needed either. That's not even considering the fact that Sakurai went on record to state that he only wanted to include Video game original characters in Smash, which only ever pointed to Sora coming exclusively with KH original content. Most people assume that Disney prevented Nintendo from freely using those IPs, but there's more than enough evidence that points to Nintendo and Sakurai just not wanting Donald and Goofy. The argument just doesn't hold any weight.

This doesn't address the fact that the versions of the iconic Disney characters are unique to the video game itself and can be addressed as such, and not doing so means that Disney doesn't want to play ball. The Donald Duck and Goofy on Mickey Mouse Mixed-Up Adventures who are racing cars and teaching morals are very much separated from the Donald Duck and Goofy in KH who rapid-fire black magic and bash skulls in with a shield. I'm pretty sure most persons, especially Sakurai, can tell the difference and separation.

Once again, Sakurai is VERY dedicated to accurately portraying game series that get into Smash. He plays them through to completion or mostly so to make sure he can accurately understand what he wishes to reflect. This would clearly mean that, since the Disney aspects of every KH game are massive and that your two default and mainstay partners are Disney characters, that having them and having Disney content in Smash with Sora would be something he would desire. It's clear that this is something Sakurai would have had to sacrifice to get Sora in, since Disney is the one who can't seem to separate the versions of the characters.

Also, your comparison of Donald and Goofy to SMT demons is exceptionally flawed: One of these is basically equivalent to Pokemon and exists as a collect-a-thon element that also allows you to augment how you fight and are technically representation of a different series entirely and just overlap because Persona is in the same universe as SMT, and the other are two major characters that are your consistent party members who experience and take part in integral moments who were only swappable because of the limits of the games at the time (as shown by KH3) and have major development over the series. Acting as if these two things hold the same amount of pull or importance to properly represent the series in Smash is silly. The ACTUAL equivalent of this would be Joker's teammates like Morgana, and they are included in his stages, taunts, Final Smash and Spirit Board. Properly representing Persona was done by having him summon Arsene and having multiple spells that can only be used via various Persona.

Donald, Goofy and Mickey didn't get any of that: they are completely ripped out of every possible thing, and honestly as good as Sora came out, I'm sure every KH fan looks at this and can feel how hollow it truly is, always knowing a massive bit is missing from Smash. Every time Dive Into The Heart crops up and it's Riku or Sora's, I can see them missing and I can feel how wrong that is. People will be okay with it because Sora got in and will take that over nothing, just like most anyone else would do, but it doesn't change the fact that an essential piece has been removed.

The argument DOES hold weight, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it. Sakurai could very easily have made that a deciding factor and not included Sora if he wanted to stay true to his personal design philosophy, and saying Sakurai didn't want to include them or that Nintendo wasn't about it without any information while we have information that suggests Sakurai WOULD have wanted them to be included via his design philosophy weakens your stance. Also, making unequal comparisons weakens your stance, so try to avoid that in the future.

If Sakurai makes future statement suggesting he never wanted them, I'll accept that I was wrong of course, but that seems unlikely. Very much more likely he gave in to make the #1 request happen because Disney would never back down.

 

[Double0Groove]

This doesn't address the fact that the versions of the iconic Disney characters are unique to the video game itself and can be addressed as such, and not doing so means that Disney doesn't want to play ball. The Donald Duck and Goofy on Mickey Mouse Mixed-Up Adventures who are racing cars and teaching morals are very much separated from the Donald Duck and Goofy in KH who rapid-fire black magic and bash skulls in with a shield. I'm pretty sure most persons, especially Sakurai, can tell the difference and separation.

Once again, Sakurai is VERY dedicated to accurately portraying game series that get into Smash. He plays them through to completion or mostly so to make sure he can accurately understand what he wishes to reflect. This would clearly mean that, since the Disney aspects of every KH game are massive and that your two default and mainstay partners are Disney characters, that having them and having Disney content in Smash with Sora would be something he would desire. It's clear that this is something Sakurai would have had to sacrifice to get Sora in, since Disney is the one who can't seem to separate the versions of the characters.

Also, your comparison of Donald and Goofy to SMT demons is exceptionally flawed: One of these is basically equivalent to Pokemon and exists as a collect-a-thon element that also allows you to augment how you fight and are technically representation of a different series entirely and just overlap because Persona is in the same universe as SMT, and the other are two major characters that are your consistent party members who experience and take part in integral moments who were only swappable because of the limits of the games at the time (as shown by KH3) and have major development over the series. Acting as if these two things hold the same amount of pull or importance to properly represent the series in Smash is silly. The ACTUAL equivalent of this would be Joker's teammates like Morgana, and they are included in his stages, taunts, Final Smash and Spirit Board. Properly representing Persona was done by having him summon Arsene and having multiple spells that can only be used via various Persona.

Donald, Goofy and Mickey didn't get any of that: they are completely ripped out of every possible thing, and honestly as good as Sora came out, I'm sure every KH fan looks at this and can feel how hollow it truly is, always knowing a massive bit is missing from Smash. Every time Dive Into The Heart crops up and it's Riku or Sora's, I can see them missing and I can feel how wrong that is. People will be okay with it because Sora got in and will take that over nothing, just like most anyone else would do, but it doesn't change the fact that an essential piece has been removed.

The argument DOES hold weight, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it. Sakurai could very easily have made that a deciding factor and not included Sora if he wanted to stay true to his personal design philosophy, and saying Sakurai didn't want to include them or that Nintendo wasn't about it without any information while we have information that suggests Sakurai WOULD have wanted them to be included via his design philosophy weakens your stance. Also, making unequal comparisons weakens your stance, so try to avoid that in the future.

If Sakurai makes future statement suggesting he never wanted them, I'll accept that I was wrong of course, but that seems unlikely. Very much more likely he gave in to make the #1 request happen because Disney would never back down.

Underplaying the importance of the SMT demons doesn't change the fact that they, very much like the Disney animated characters, are still an important part of the series identity, arguably more so than the main characters we ended up with in regards to the Mii costumes and Spirit Board (Igor being the sole exception). Ignoring that is basically the same as trying to swipe an inconvenient truth under the rug, especially in an argument focusing on the importance of representation as opposed to what role they play in their respective games. What makes them an accurate example is the fact that they are one of the two most consistent aspects to the series that make up its identity. Not having that represented at all was a clear indicator for what you could expect in a KH inclusion.

In regards to Sakurai's personal design philosophy, you're making too many assumptions in the face of his statement towards wanting to keep Smash purely about video game characters. No matter how anybody tries to spin it, Mickey, Donald and Goofy aren't video game characters (Or more specifically, their background in gaming is overshadowed by their origins). Those three in the KH series are about as different from the initial Mouse trio as the Three Musketeers are; they're the same characters in a different setting. You can't remove their history from their character. I'm positive that Sakurai sees it this way as well considering the context surrounding his statement, which again, was a clear indicator for what would've been excluded if KH was included.

Again, the argument doesn't hold any weight.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It almost feels like you're beating up a dead horse when people still don't understand why only the contents that are original to Kingdom Hearts were used. People need to keep in mind that Nintendo had to remove all the Disney related contents, due to copyright reasons.

 

[Double0Groove]

It almost feels like you're beating up a dead horse when people still don't understand why only the contents that are original to Kingdom Hearts were used. People need to keep in mind that Nintendo had to remove all the Disney related contents, due to copyright reasons.

I wouldn't even consider it that simple with the way Disney's been behaving with their IPs lately. Besides, Disney owns Kingdom Hearts, so even the stuff we got is technically Disney content.

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

I don’t understand blaming Sakurai’s video game rule, a rule that only applies to PLAYABLE characters, as the cause of no Donald, Goofy, and Mickey.

Dracula did not, at all, originate in video games. Heck, video games didn’t even exist when Dracula was created. But since Dracula is an important part of Castlevania, he got in as a boss. I’m not sure about Alucard, but I believe the concept originated in either a novel or movie, so I think the same can be said about him too.

So the fact that D, G, and M didn’t get in is clearly Disney’s fault. I mean, maybe they allowed it, but were going to charge more than Nintendo was willing to pay, but the point is, is that this isn’t the video game rule’s fault, at all.

EDIT NOTES: Changed a word because of the no cursing rule. I don’t think it is actually a curse word, but I do remember some people don’t like it for religious reasons, and thus treat it as a curse word.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Dracula did not, at all, originate in video games. Hell, video games didn’t even exist when Dracula was created. But since Dracula is an important part of Castlevania, he got in as a boss. I’m not sure about Alucard, but I believe the concept originated in either a novel or movie, so I think the same can be said about him too.

Correction.

The original Dracula which the Castlevania is based on like many versions and incarnations of the character didn't originate as a video game character.

Castlevania's incarnation however had.

"But Dr. Kawashiwa"

A digital polygon head based on the the real life person.

"Lugia! Lucario!"

Doesn't count. The movies they debuted in are based on the games themselves.

"R.O.B.!"

He's a video game accessory.

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

Correction.

The original Dracula which the Castlevania is based on like many versions and incarnations of the character didn't originate as a video game character.

Castlevania's incarnation however had.

And the Donald, Goofy, and Mickey in KH are not, at all, the same as the original ones. These ones originated in KH, and thus are video game characters. Sorry, but you can’t have it both ways.

 

[Double0Groove]

And the Donald, Goofy, and Mickey in KH are not, at all, the same as the original ones. These ones originated in KH, and thus are video game characters. Sorry, but you can’t have it both ways.

That's not the same thing. Heck, Nomura has gone on record to state that he's had to deal with loads of restrictions and guidelines when it came to working with those characters. They are very much the same characters as far as Disney's concerned.

I don’t understand blaming Sakurai’s video game rule, a rule that only applies to PLAYABLE characters, as the cause of no Donald, Goofy, and Mickey.

Dracula did not, at all, originate in video games. Heck, video games didn’t even exist when Dracula was created. But since Dracula is an important part of Castlevania, he got in as a boss. I’m not sure about Alucard, but I believe the concept originated in either a novel or movie, so I think the same can be said about him too.

As for Dracula, that's a very interesting point... Scratch that, that's a REALLY good point. The fact that Sakurai doesn't even mention Dracula in interviews puts too much into perspective. I can come to several conclusions as to why that's the case, but that'd all be baseless assumption at that point.

However, the fact remains that Sakurai still reiterated that rule after Ultimate's release. using these exact words: "basically (Smash) will only have content from video games in it. "
This was long after Dracula's inclusion... I dunno man. At the very least I can't confidently claim that Sakurai and Nintendo didn't want Donald and Goofy in their game. Good catch.

 

[Megadoomer]

SnakeFighter mentioning in the social thread how annoying it was that Gaston wasn't a boss got me thinking - what are some Disney characters that you think would make for good bosses in a Kingdom Hearts game? (whether they have their own levels, or are just bonus bosses)

Two that come to mind for me are:

The Rhino from James and the Giant Peach. While I'm not sure if it would run into similar legal issues as Tarzan, since James And The Giant Peach is a book by Roald Dahl, it seems like the Rhino would make for a visually spectacular fight, since it's a massive storm cloud shaped like a rhinoceros. (in the movie, it's an embodiment of James's fears and can't actually be fought, but when has that ever stopped video games?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00kEcGh4j8 (can't embed the video, but it's Friends On The Other Side)

Dr. Facilier from the Princess and the Frog. Admittedly, I haven't seen this movie (it was a little after my time), but even going by the song alone, there's a lot that could be done, between the living shadow that Facilier possesses, Heartless that resemble voodoo dolls, Facilier being a dance battler for physical moves, maybe the giant masks (his "friends" on the other side) taking a more direct role as the battle goes on.

 

[Lyncario]

SnakeFighter mentioning in the social thread how annoying it was that Gaston wasn't a boss got me thinking - what are some Disney characters that you think would make for good bosses in a Kingdom Hearts game? (whether they have their own levels, or are just bonus bosses)

Two that come to mind for me are:

The Rhino from James and the Giant Peach. While I'm not sure if it would run into similar legal issues as Tarzan, since James And The Giant Peach is a book by Roald Dahl, it seems like the Rhino would make for a visually spectacular fight, since it's a massive storm cloud shaped like a rhinoceros. (in the movie, it's an embodiment of James's fears and can't actually be fought, but when has that ever stopped video games?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00kEcGh4j8 (can't embed the video, but it's Friends On The Other Side)

Dr. Facilier from the Princess and the Frog. Admittedly, I haven't seen this movie (it was a little after my time), but even going by the song alone, there's a lot that could be done, between the living shadow that Facilier possesses, Heartless that resemble voodoo dolls, Facilier being a dance battler for physical moves, maybe the giant masks (his "friends" on the other side) taking a more direct role as the battle goes on.

Both for the shiny and the giant enemy crab memes.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I wouldn't even consider it that simple with the way Disney's been behaving with their IPs lately. Besides, Disney owns Kingdom Hearts, so even the stuff we got is technically Disney content.

It's video game originated content though, which is something that's almost never seen with the Disney universe.

 

[Constantini]

Probably the most wanted smash character of all times since sonic in Brawl, and boy is he boring.
No goofy or donald in moveset, and he just looks so goddamn plain. I don't care about his inclusion at all, but damn I would be pissed if I were a KH fan.

 

[GhostRoy]

Probably the most wanted smash character of all times since sonic in Brawl, and boy is he boring.
No goofy or donald in moveset, and he just looks so goddamn plain. I don't care about his inclusion at all, but damn I would be pissed if I were a KH fan.

As a Kingdom Hearts fan I am more then pleased with what we got and I voted for Sora not Donald and Goofy. I could careless if they were included in the moveset as they do not fight as a triplet pair like ice climbers they fight as a party (like Shulk, Cloud, Hero, Joker etc) who all do not have their perspective party members in their moveset either. As for not being apart of his final smash or at the very least spirits I would have no issues with them being there but Sora feels perfect and very fun and would feel weird/limited in my opinion if you mixed in Donald and Goofy into his moveset. When playing any of the Kingdom Hearts games you are staring at Sora while fighting, Donald and Goofy do their own thing unless activating a cinematic attack (aka final smash)

 

[Double0Groove]

It's video game originated content though, which is something that's almost never seen with the Disney universe.

I don't really see how that matters.

SnakeFighter mentioning in the social thread how annoying it was that Gaston wasn't a boss got me thinking - what are some Disney characters that you think would make for good bosses in a Kingdom Hearts game? (whether they have their own levels, or are just bonus bosses)

Two that come to mind for me are:

The Rhino from James and the Giant Peach. While I'm not sure if it would run into similar legal issues as Tarzan, since James And The Giant Peach is a book by Roald Dahl, it seems like the Rhino would make for a visually spectacular fight, since it's a massive storm cloud shaped like a rhinoceros. (in the movie, it's an embodiment of James's fears and can't actually be fought, but when has that ever stopped video games?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00kEcGh4j8 (can't embed the video, but it's Friends On The Other Side)

Dr. Facilier from the Princess and the Frog. Admittedly, I haven't seen this movie (it was a little after my time), but even going by the song alone, there's a lot that could be done, between the living shadow that Facilier possesses, Heartless that resemble voodoo dolls, Facilier being a dance battler for physical moves, maybe the giant masks (his "friends" on the other side) taking a more direct role as the battle goes on.

Dr. Facilier would've definitely have been cool, But I would've been more into an Emperor Zurg boss battle. Mini-boss or otherwise. While they aren't Disney characters per-say, I would've loved to fight a few of the Final Fantasy summons.