Guide Sonic GUIDE/FAQ: ASK QUESTIONS HERE

[Falco_Phantasm]

At about what range of percent's is Sonic able to kill a character with his up-air?

 

[Kytos]

It's a good set up if they're near the ledge recovering. Last tournament I went to, I dropped a spring on a Falcon at the ledge and he had no choice but to immediately up B again, preventing him from sweet-spotting the ledge and letting me secure the kill with a f-smash. It's definitely good. Does anyone know specific timing/spacing for it?

Not what I had in mind though.

I was talking more around the likes of this.

When you use the spring, and you're high enough to auto-cancel your Dair,
You'll land right where the spring will hit them to. It's definitely a true combo considering how many times I've pulled this off.

 

[VKatana]

At about what range of percent's is Sonic able to kill a character with his up-air?

At the absolute very top of the stage you can kill at around 45-any%. I've gotten this one goofy combo so many times: spindash -> up air -> jump + up air -> up b -> up air. It usually kills even if the first hit gets them at like 25-30% if you have decent rage, maybe like 90%. The up air chain carries them to the top of the screen and finishes them off. Be careful it isn't guaranteed.

If you're not at the top of the screen it won't kill until ludicrous percents.

 

[VKatana]

Not what I had in mind though.

I was talking more around the likes of this.

When you use the spring, and you're high enough to auto-cancel your Dair,
You'll land right where the spring will hit them to. It's definitely a true combo considering how many times I've pulled this off.

Yeah, that's definitely a true combo. Do you know if perhaps this is useful at low percents? Maybe knocking them down with the spring then d-airing back to the stage to get a jab lock and continue the combo from there.
But yeah, super godlike stuff. Any tips on getting the spacing/timing right? I've gotten this but not consistently.

 

[Kytos]

Yeah, that's definitely a true combo. Do you know if perhaps this is useful at low percents? Maybe knocking them down with the spring then d-airing back to the stage to get a jab lock and continue the combo from there.
But yeah, super godlike stuff. Any tips on getting the spacing/timing right? I've gotten this but not consistently.

Well, you have enough time to determine if they'll get hit or not as Sonic goes down. Normally I just FSmash before I jab lock because I don't want to give them a chance to tech, but it does work. Chharizard was about 110% in damage when I pulled this off.

So percentage wise would be:

80-90% on lightweights

90-100% on midweights

100-110% on Heavyweights

And 110 to 125%max for tanks.

It's not particularly useful at low percents though, considering it doesn't knock them back enough. It would take them about 80% or more damage before it knocks them hard enough to connect a hit when Sonic lands.

Edit: Speaking of Jab Locks, it takes a very specific hitbox for Sonic to Jab Lock. The inside of his hitbox in his jab pulls it off. The tip cancels it.

 

[VKatana]

Edit: Speaking of Jab Locks, it takes a very specific hitbox for Sonic to Jab Lock. The inside of his hitbox in his jab pulls it off. The tip cancels it.

Hopefully newer forum members take good note of it, and I'm super glad you mentioned that since I kind of forgot about it! Jab locking is pretty difficult with Sonic's actual jab. Pretty sure down tilt does the trick, but in some cases it has too much knockback to get the maximum capitalization. The video you posted shows the spring having the same effect as a jab lock. Thanks for the info! Glad to see a lot of people here really know their stuff.
New term might be unnecessary, but it could be cool to call this technique 'spring locking'. And y'know, I wonder... maybe there's a way to combine this with Junglechief87's 'Sonic Tower' technique? It might be kind of a stretch, but maybe there are some new techniques similar to spring locking which involve custom moves. Maybe the double spring makes spring locking a lot easier? I'll test it when I get the chance.

 

[Camalange]

What are some true combos with Sonic other than Spin Dash to jump to aerial or uthrow to spring chase to uair? Comboing seems fun and I at least want to know the basics to come up with my own combos.

You can combo uthrow into just uair, sans spring if they DI wrong.
Last hit of nair combos into jab/grab/other things.
Bair can even combo into another bair at some percents, lol.

Honestly, just explore and try things out. Smash isn't as much about memorizing combos like most games. Once you know your bnb's you can just kind of improv after you get a strong sense of how the character's moves work.

I heard that Sonic's approaches suck. Why? What's his best approach?

Forced to approach, low priority, subpar frame data, etc.

Best approach is honestly shield. Everything else is in our meta is mostly fake-outs and baiting with proper conditioning with the aid of our cancels and other mix-up tools.

How good is Sonic's neutral game? Is it decent? Or is neutral the same as approaching (TBH, not fully sure of the difference, even though I know what each one is). Does Sonic thrive off of stage control, or is resetting to neutral throughout a set a good option?

Neutral game is different from approaching.

It's decent. I think Sonic is better at resetting neutral than he is trying to control. Again, he's a bait and punish character, so he can't dominate the stage outside of his ability to punish moves from across the stage, but that requires your opponent pressing buttons like an idiot so it still thrives on a player-by-player basis. Like, Sonic can't really challenge most characters like Fox, Diddy, ZSS, etc. in neutral because they have better frame data and confirms from close range hits. Sonic's best option is grab... Maybe jab, which really leads to nothing. Meanwhile, Fox can confirm jab into usmash.

I know in theory how to do ISDJ, but I can't execute it at all. Are there any visual cues to help me or is it just really hard? Also, is a lyric roll just a roll that's slowed down to a circle animation instead of an oval? Is there any use for it other than being ablee to acting out of it quickly?

It's very frame specific. Don't give SDR a chance to come out. It'll come with practice as it's much more strict than Spinshot.

Correct. It's our stupid name for it. Slow Spin Roll or something is probably better.
You can't really act out of it quickly, but it gives you a mix-up on shield if they don't expect it. I think it's best use is that it can cross-up shield if you do it right, which is dope. Also, from a slow hit, you can go into a short hop (almost vertical?) spin jump which is great for shield pressure.

BTW, you seem to know your ****. Thanks dude for all this insight throughout the forums.

Thank you. Glad I could help.

At about what range of percent's is Sonic able to kill a character with his up-air?

In addition to what was already said, don't forget to factor in things like rage, low ceilings, etc... Uair can kill stupid early if all the right stars are aligned.

Not what I had in mind though.

I was talking more around the likes of this.

When you use the spring, and you're high enough to auto-cancel your Dair,
You'll land right where the spring will hit them to. It's definitely a true combo considering how many times I've pulled this off.

lol, smooth.

Guys, spring has had a jab lock effect since Brawl. You can initiate a jab lock set-up by hitting with the side-b hop, confirming into a FSJ, spring, dair to land, jab, jab... etc.

It was guaranteed on ROB because of his giant hurtbox. All they can do is DI and pray we mess up or guess which direction to land with dair incorrectly.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

you could always at low % short hop fair and dtilt to cover the option if they don't tech/don't jump

 

[VKatana]

So following up on my thing about using the short height of the double spring custom to follow up spring locking more effectively, I only had about half an hour to mess around with it tonight (sadly) but I was able to get good set ups using a single spring. If you're right in front of your opponent (basically grab range) you can use one spring which will knock them some. At 0%, you can follow this up with a n-air or f-air, as well as soft n-air into a variety of followups (tilts, dash attack, etc). Maybe I'm dumb but I think it has some potential.

Quick edit: since the double spring gives Sonic weak recovery and off stage game, this is probably one of those customs that doesn't give him a totally worse or better strategy, just a... different one.

 

[Camalange]

Sonic Boards in a nutshell (mostly this thread).

Sonic;Boards

 

[VKatana]

Sonic Boards in a nutshell (mostly this thread).

View attachment 44988

Sonic;Boards

tfw shots fired at spring locking

I never played Brawl. Whoopsy

 

[Camalange]

tfw shots fired at spring locking

I never played Brawl. Whoopsy

Looks like Ace is shooting upvotes...

Never played Brawl?

tch.

Also, it was more of a shots fired at Sonic mains since forever, lol. We're so guilty of coming up with names for everything.

I basically finished my Spring Warp video btw, but I'm waiting to post it until after the Nintendo Direct and April Fools shenanigans... Not trynna compete with all that.

 

[Yunior597]

Hello, is there any setup for landing up smash? and also it is invincible?

 

[Camalange]

Hello, is there any setup for landing up smash? and also it is invincible?

Not really anything guaranteed, but it's best used when catching landings or as platform pressure (it can even shield poke sometimes). You can catch D-throw tech chases with it too, but that's more of a commitment.

Probably the most effective use of Usmash is by the ledge, punishing a get-up option as it covers jump, standard wake-up, and sometimes even roll from the ledge due to its hitboxes staying out, pulling you in, and the final hit having crazy knockback for early kills.

It's invincible, yes, but only right as it rises and reaches peak height, iirc. Something like that.

 

[VKatana]

So just as a little thing I found out today for all the BSD users: BSD actually has really useful applications for your down-B too. Spinshot is so close to the ground that if you hit someone while doing it and get the free nair off the initial hit, you can get a down smash too. Also BSD allows down-b to combo into back air at all percents. And you can do flaming spinshot, but its incredibly hard to pull off since doing a spinshot out of side b is pretty difficult (at least for me, maybe I'm just doing it an unnecessarily complicated way..) but BSD spinshot does more damage and you can still get the nair. Haven't been able to accomplish as much with the double spring as I thought I might....

 

[Camalange]

I'm pretty positive BSD doesn't affect Spinshot...

 

[VKatana]

I'm pretty positive BSD doesn't affect Spinshot...

Here's how I get it to do a very low spinshot: with BSD equipped, I charge down-b for just a bit then roll the analog stick left or right and tap A. It performs a spinshot thats much lower to the ground, allowing you to chain nair and downsmash out of it if it connects.

 

[Camalange]

Here's how I get it to do a very low spinshot: with BSD equipped, I charge down-b for just a bit then roll the analog stick left or right and tap A. It performs a spinshot thats much lower to the ground, allowing you to chain nair and downsmash out of it if it connects.

You can't do Spinshot from a grounded Down-B.

Are you talking about just a SDJ? Because yes, BSD affect's Down-B's jump.
If you flick up on the C-stick from a grounded Down-B, you can do an "instant" SCJ of sorts, but that is not a Spinshot. Please understand.

 

[VKatana]

You can't do Spinshot from a grounded Down-B.

Are you talking about just a SDJ? Because yes, BSD affect's Down-B's jump.
If you flick up on the C-stick from a grounded Down-B, you can do an "instant" SCJ of sorts, but that is not a Spinshot. Please understand.

My bad, guess I'm confusing spinshot and SDJ. Apologies.

 

[Camalange]

My bad, guess I'm confusing spinshot and SDJ. Apologies.

It's an alarmingly common misconception.

 

[VKatana]

It's an alarmingly common misconception.

Well at least now I know for future reference! Oh and for those who were curious, I used BSD (a 1311 loadout) at a recent customs tournament hosted by Static Manny. Got 4th place and definitely caught some good attention from the top Tampa players. Manny was pretty surprised at how good BSD actually is so I'm hoping he starts using it at other tournaments as well. Manny also offered to teach me some Sonic stuff, so I'll take notes and share tech in a thread on here soon!

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Now you just gotta discover how useful 1331 is and how well BSD and springing headbutt work especially vs fox.

 

[VKatana]

Now you just gotta discover how useful 1331 is and how well BSD and springing headbutt work especially vs fox.

Is springing headbutt any good against Sheik? And if so, why?

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

only thing i can see going for you in the sheik MU with springign headbutt is being able to disrupt her bouncing fish recovery for a potential free setup into bair. I've done this vs ZSS as well as vs fox where i go below them predicting ZSS down B or fox's side B and i use springing headbutt to intercept them at the right height where i can followup with a bair. That or i use it just to throw off their recovery attempt.

The move combo's out of BSD > FF > Uair so you can rack up some pretty nice % early on each stock. Many site the moves reduced height and increased cooldown time before being able to use another move as reasons why it's inferior to normal spring into aerial but i find the fact that it provides us with a free potential setup into one of our kill moves as a big plus in specific MUs

 

[VKatana]

Could the springing headbutt also potentially protect me from run-off back air stage spikes by Sheik?

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

no as springing headbutt loses all invincibility. So you'd trade with sheik's bair. Unless of course you hit sheik before bair comes out. Basically it turns sonic's up-b into more of an offensive tool and a "Get off me" move rather than an escape option.

 

[kj22]

Any advice on the ROB mu? Man that mu seems worse than brawl (if gyro hits your shield he can immediately throughout another since it disappears, no ASC shield cancelling to approach, he has a kill setup and kill throw now)
Apparently fought the best player in Austin (Sassy, mained ROB) and it was projectile city...I couldve done a better job shielding his projectile but holy crap I spent more time shielding in that mu then anything else.
I didn't try homing attacking, though maybe his laser aimed upwards would hit me before I got there, and if he rolled away=free punish.
Also I believe gyro beat out side b, but not sure about down b since multihit
Mu was annoying as heck, especially considering ROB can kill off a grab ;/

 

[Locuan]

Any advice on the ROB mu? Man that mu seems worse than brawl (if gyro hits your shield he can immediately throughout another since it disappears, no ASC shield cancelling to approach, he has a kill setup and kill throw now)
Apparently fought the best player in Austin (Sassy, mained ROB) and it was projectile city...I couldve done a better job shielding his projectile but holy crap I spent more time shielding in that mu then anything else.
I didn't try homing attacking, though maybe his laser aimed upwards would hit me before I got there, and if he rolled away=free punish.
Also I believe gyro beat out side b, but not sure about down b since multihit
Mu was annoying as heck, especially considering ROB can kill off a grab ;/

I consider SaSSy my rival since we usually face off against each other all the time. I also play Sonic against him quite frequently and it is a painful match-up for me as well. I have yet to find a reliable way of beating him. That being said, I have been able to get closer to taking matches away from him with Sonic every tournament. Sonic, like Marth, is able to autocancel his airdodges from a short hop. This gives you a tool to deal with ROB's projectiles.

Instead of speaking about ROB in general, I will speak about what to do against SaSSy's ROB. His game plan revolves around great use of Gyro and grabs. Therefore, if you are able to grab the gyro, you are already limiting his game. ROB can't throw out another gyro. His options are now limited and he likes to use side-b after you pick it up to reflect it back at you. I just maintain it and try to play around the match while maintaining the gyro in my control. This means Z-dropping the gyro, attacking, etc. then picking it up once more. You can also throw it at ROB, and if it connects, grab it while it's still in the air.

The other thing is don't get grabbed. Down Throw to Up-air is a reliable combo/string which at higher percents can kill if he baits out the air-dodge or one performs incorrect DI. At really high percents, ROB's U-throw will kill. In other words, spacing is critical, if you fall into his grab that means your damage will sky rocket if not careful. SaSSy also likes to set-up for grabs with his Gyro a lot so keep that in mind.

Homing attack is good, but it's predictable, you have no idea how much he has punished me for it when he found out it was an option. Just, try to use it sparingly. I think that's the best option, OoS U-airs from ROB hurt.

I might be missing a lot of stuff but that's what comes out of my mind at this point. The key points is grab the gyro, short hop airdodge is a great tool to have, and don't get grabbed.

 

[kj22]

I consider SaSSy my rival since we usually face off against each other all the time. I also play Sonic against him quite frequently and it is a painful match-up for me as well. I have yet to find a reliable way of beating him. That being said, I have been able to get closer to taking matches away from him with Sonic every tournament. Sonic, like Marth, is able to autocancel his airdodges from a short hop. This gives you a tool to deal with ROB's projectiles.

Instead of speaking about ROB in general, I will speak about what to do against SaSSy's ROB. His game plan revolves around great use of Gyro and grabs. Therefore, if you are able to grab the gyro, you are already limiting his game. ROB can't throw out another gyro. His options are now limited and he likes to use side-b after you pick it up to reflect it back at you. I just maintain it and try to play around the match while maintaining the gyro in my control. This means Z-dropping the gyro, attacking, etc. then picking it up once more. You can also throw it at ROB, and if it connects, grab it while it's still in the air.

The other thing is don't get grabbed. Down Throw to Up-air is a reliable combo/string which at higher percents can kill if he baits out the air-dodge or one performs incorrect DI. At really high percents, ROB's U-throw will kill. In other words, spacing is critical, if you fall into his grab that means your damage will sky rocket if not careful. SaSSy also likes to set-up for grabs with his Gyro a lot so keep that in mind.

Homing attack is good, but it's predictable, you have no idea how much he has punished me for it when he found out it was an option. Just, try to use it sparingly. I think that's the best option, OoS U-airs from ROB hurt.

I might be missing a lot of stuff but that's what comes out of my mind at this point. The key points is grab the gyro, short hop airdodge is a great tool to have, and don't get grabbed.

glad someone else knows the frustration of that mu. Forgot about using sh airdodge to approach, usually I use sh airdodge to side b.

I see how you're describing to play that mu, and god damn that sounds realllly annoying. I'll prolly z-catch the gyro and throw it up and use that brief window of time to go in. Or maybe just roll past it and fight him.

I just need to change my mindset, I still feel like I can be aggressive like I like to be as long as I get that gyro out of the way. He got so much free damage+follow ups out of it it was truly irritating.

 

[Locuan]

glad someone else knows the frustration of that mu. Forgot about using sh airdodge to approach, usually I use sh airdodge to side b.

I see how you're describing to play that mu, and god damn that sounds realllly annoying. I'll prolly z-catch the gyro and throw it up and use that brief window of time to go in. Or maybe just roll past it and fight him.

I just need to change my mindset, I still feel like I can be aggressive like I like to be as long as I get that gyro out of the way. He got so much free damage+follow ups out of it it was truly irritating.

I should have watched the match. I was so tired by that point in the day that I was stuck in my own little world. Regardless, it is a match-up we have to learn here in Austin not just because of SaSSy, but BlueNinjaKoopa as well. I'm still trying to nitpick the match-up but I have only been able to take one set off him and that was 3 months ago already.

 

[kj22]

I should have watched the match. I was so tired by that point in the day that I was stuck in my own little world. Regardless, it is a match-up we have to learn here in Austin not just because of SaSSy, but BlueNinjaKoopa as well. I'm still trying to nitpick the match-up but I have only been able to take one set off him and that was 3 months ago already.

We'll figure it out together ;P

Going to TGC 2/any tournaments before then?

 

[Camalange]

ROB's not so bad.

http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-4-sonic.392455/#post-18668888

Also, disgusting Locuan, is that SAO stop.

 

[Locuan]

Going to TGC 2/any tournaments before then?

Hopefully I can get to TGC2 but driving to and back from Houston in one day is not something I want to do again so I'll see what I can do. Also, we have our monthly on the 18th I believe so I'll be going to that as well.

Also, disgusting Locuan, is that SAO stop.

It is, and Asuna is awesome.

 

[VKatana]

I'm going to a biweekly this Friday, and there's a ZSS main who's there every time. Last time I went, he bopped me and it was only a 2-1 set because he SD'd. On top of that, sometimes I feel like my Sonic has been getting a little predictable/downloadable lately even in spite of some good tournament results. Can anyone give me some advice on navigating the neutral without getting predictable as Sonic, and maybe a little wisdom on the vs. ZSS MU?

 

[Camalange]

Once you accept that Sonic's neutral game is really reliant on resets and respecting that everyone else (like ZSS) has a better neutral than you (frame 1 jab) you'll start to really make strides with this character.

 

[VKatana]

Once you accept that Sonic's neutral game is really reliant on resets and respecting that everyone else (like ZSS) has a better neutral than you (frame 1 jab) you'll start to really make strides with this character.

Seems like my best options are to shield cancel side B's and respect my opponent's moves while waiting for an opportunity to strike as well as focus on not getting punished if a spindash collides with my opponent's shield. I've found the best way to do this is by hitting R to do an SDJ once you hit their shield, or mix it up by continuing to roll along the ground. Would I be correct in saying this? Static Manny does a great job of mixing up his post-shield hit options in this set against MVD's Diddy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2CrwBHoXVE
It seems like he does decently well with not getting punished while still eventually getting spindash combos. Will this work against ZSS?

 

[New Age Retro Hippie]

My experience with the matchup is somewhat limited but I'm having better luck against Diddy with Sonic lately. Does SD/SC ignore/destroy banana? I have a feeling it doesn't, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

My experience with the matchup is somewhat limited but I'm having better luck against Diddy with Sonic lately. Does SD/SC ignore/destroy banana? I have a feeling it doesn't, but I'm not 100% sure.

It clashes into it and your SD/SC stops while the banana disappears. So it's more or less an even trade off since you don't trip.

Question of my own: Watching 6WX, I see him using SD as an approach before cancelling into an aerial. Any idea how to do that? I'm really confused about all these AT's, especially with all these terms and abbrevations thrown around. >.<

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Uh.. what do you mean "cancelling an SD approach into an aerial"?

SD to SDJ to aerial? How's that an AT?

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Uh.. what do you mean "cancelling an SD approach into an aerial"?

SD to SDJ to aerial? How's that an AT?

The one where he jumps during the spin charge but cancels? I might be mistaking this for something else. -.-