Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
TBH, I think that the speedsters having overly fast, powerful finishers is more disingenuous to balance than this is.It's cause it means a lot of options are cut off till higher percentages.
There are arguments to make that it forces players to not just play 1 way throughout the game. However there are also arguments to make that it limits the amount of ways you can play at low percent.
Among the top tiers sheik vs spacies is probably a good example. below 30% sheiks options against spaceys are grab or needle. (or fair if their opponent overextend) Sheik isn't really known atm for her insane mixups or whatever but it still says something a character as good as sheik is forced to ignore her other great tools until a later percentage.
That being said it's not gonna be patched out of melee (and 99% sure it's not getting patched out of pm either) so whilst both sides can bring up fair points it doesn't matter.
This is predominately what I find I dislike about the mechanic is that it can be used accidentally. Otherwise, it certainly adds depth to the game at a somewhat fair cost I would say. CC'ing is always effective, but its usefulness declines as percentage goes up except on many moves. If you want to try hitting someone you might try making the call to CC an incoming attack, but if it is not a move you can retaliate against you take percentage and no means to punish someone. At this rate you have limited chances per stock to use CC effectively and the more you get hit the fewer moves you can properly use it as a method against.Lastly, for the most uncommon argument against Melee – Crouch canceling (CC’ing). To define the mechanic quickly, CC’ing(or its partner, ASDI down), works by punishing someone for hitting you. Essentially, if you CC then your character does not get knocked back as far and is much more likely to not leave the ground or go into stun at all when attacked. The mechanic varies by percent and whether your character was in crouch animation or not, but consider the effect on gameplay this mechanic has. Hitting someone when they make a mistake suddenly becomes a guessing game instead of a free opportunity for outplaying someone at times. How can I know if someone is holding down when they mess up? This creates strategy in avoiding CC punishes, but it arguably reduces depth by having to space around CC punishes or using moves (such as small-range grabs) to punish opponents instead of combo-starters. Ultimately, CC’ing attempts to violate a fundamental fighting game principle of punishing the opponent when they are outplayed and converting that opening into an advantage.
I call that good, convenient inputs rather than "accident".Unfortunately, you can accidentally CC by simply trying to input moves for other things such as wavedash or dtilt and end up CC'ing something because you were too slow to make the input and were caught holding the stick down. That aspect is not very good.
D-smash is an anti-CC move, right?What's people's problem with CC? I'd say Peach.
I guess it again depends upon what you value.I call that good, convenient inputs rather than "accident".
I think you are looking into it too deep.I think this is because before your moves become crouch canceled and punished because of it or like Epsilon said you don't get the payoff you expect, you have the belief that it should work. So when that starts to happen, you feel almost betrayed because you were convinced this should work and now it doesn't. Since most people are emotionally invested in the game, they will be frustrated and project that anger and frustration onto either themselves or their opponent, depending on what kind of person you are. Pair that with the fact that they, in their minds, had established things working that now don't, they feel may feel cheated and come out and say things like that's lame. I think it is the same way with edgehogging.
However as time progresses everyone will implement edgehogs and CCs into their game - these people who find these techniques 'gay' or 'lame' require some sort of excuse or reasoning to do it which is a flawed mindset as it slows down your progression.
Instead, you need to acknowledge your previously false understanding of the game and work on changing your spacing, watching out for percent or doing your aerials later and appreciate every opportunity to do so.
http://www.cpgaming.gg/guest-blog/esports-blog/negative-aspects-of-ssbm/Lastly, for the most uncommon argument against Melee – Crouch canceling (CC’ing). To define the mechanic quickly, CC’ing(or its partner, ASDI down), works by punishing someone for hitting you. Essentially, if you CC then your character does not get knocked back as far and is much more likely to not leave the ground or go into stun at all when attacked. The mechanic varies by percent and whether your character was in crouch animation or not, but consider the effect on gameplay this mechanic has. Hitting someone when they make a mistake suddenly becomes a guessing game instead of a free opportunity for outplaying someone at times. How can I know if someone is holding down when they mess up? This creates strategy in avoiding CC punishes, but it arguably reduces depth by having to space around CC punishes or using moves (such as small-range grabs) to punish opponents instead of combo-starters. Ultimately, CC’ing attempts to violate a fundamental fighting game principle of punishing the opponent when they are outplayed and converting that opening into an advantage.
Do more spikes/meteors. It counters CCingsSo since so many people agree that crouch cancelling is a blemish on Melee's high-risk-high-reward play, how can it be improved?
yea this is the conventional wisdom. definitely it's mixing up grabs, overheads, and spacing tricks like cross-through aerials or spaced pokes.Do more spikes/meteors. It counters CCings
I wouldn't. Melee is fine just how it is and altering mechanics may have some unforeseeable side effects.I meant, if you were to change the mechanic at all, how would you do that?
If CC was removed, certain characters such as peach and samus would become worse than they already are. Samus v sheik, and samus v marth would be pretty much unwinnable since it is one of the only ways for her to fight an aerial approach without being risky. I am biased because of my main, but still.I'd remove it entirely because it removes more depth than adds while adding toxic gameplay.
Rewarding the person being hit for being hit, and punishes the person with getting the hit.
Peach Dsmash does counter CC, that's no reason for it to do 50%+ in damage.
Edit: I'd accept it more or it were not the best thing to do almost 100% of the time.
Because they're bad and instead of blaming themselves for not taking into account one of the opponent's options, they'd rather blame the game.I can kind of see why people see L-canceling as a pointless middleman to having less landing lag, but why do some people hate crouch canceling?
LOOOOL. Chaingrab percentages? When you should jc grab vs pivot grab or dash grab? Percentages where characters land on platforms off throws? Percentages that allow throw combos or other combos to work? Looking to see if you are over 100% or not when you grab ledge? A large chunk of intelligent defensive/combo DI is based on your own%. Good players base lots of decisions off damage percent.This is legitimately the only scenario where paying attention to your percentage matters at all in this game (except running out of time). Otherwise, your opponent cares what percentage you are at far more than you would ever care.
Yes you do have to be crouching. Otherwise you're only getting ASDI down (same as holding c-down). Crouching itself reduces hitstun by 50% as well as kb in general, making a true CC much different. But ASDI down alone is often the better choice (as with the true CC) depending on what move you're hit with and %.My only problem with it is you don't have to actually be crouching to do it unlike in 64.
I accept it for what it is, that does not mean I blindly say I think it is a good tech.Because they're bad and instead of blaming themselves for not taking into account one of the opponent's options, they'd rather blame the game.
I was referring to your own percentage and not your paying attention to other character's combo DI. Along with the idea that you often do not pay attention to your own percentage with much concern most of the time. I should have reedited that part to be more obvious about my intentions.LOOOOL. Chaingrab percentages? When you should jc grab vs pivot grab or dash grab? Percentages where characters land on platforms off throws? Percentages that allow throw combos or other combos to work? Looking to see if you are over 100% or not when you grab ledge? A large chunk of intelligent defensive/combo DI is based on your own%. Good players base lots of decisions off damage percent.
You didn't really understand what I said. You are also a bit lost when it comes to understanding high level melee player's decision making. It's all good, you're in the vast majority, lol.I was referring to your own percentage and not your paying attention to other character's combo DI. Along with the idea that you often do not pay attention to your own percentage with much concern most of the time. I should have reedited that part to be more obvious about my intentions.
Defensive actions in a combo are the biggest applications so far in the game. However, I am not certain to what extent people care specifically about their percentage. I know of a few percentage thresholds as Marth against say Sheik and Fox. For example, Shiek's Dthrow on Marth can be DI'd in such a way to place him on a platform of BF/YS/PS even as low as 0%. Or the fact that Fox would try no DI shine to force marth to pivot grab at a certain percentage range else Fox escapes.
Other than a few specific, common situations I am not aware of a person studying percentage ranges to avoid X action or follow-ups. Combo's are incredibly varied and complex and do not lend itself well to studying your own percentage to closely beyond some very common scenarios. Or, knowing approximate flag points. "Oh, I am at >120% or something Marth might try SideB -> Utilt on me." ">100% ledge options suck now". Otherwise, its match-up dependent and seemingly rare to care about your percentage.
From my discussions with other players and my own experiences most often they never care about percentage except in the situations as I mentioned which are extremely common. Otherwise, the natural reaction is to focus mainly on the situation at hand. If you are hit by Falco's Dair you do not have to worry about your percentage at all. Your concern is the type of follow-ups created from being hit by Dair. Your reaction to a situation is therefore based on placement and moves used rather than percentage you are at. You do not need feedback on your percentage to know how high you will go as the height you go is all the feedback you need to make decisions.
The idea to a bigger argument in all of this is I am thinking that crouch canceling being regulate by a button would more universally expand the notion that knowing your own percentage is important. You consciously press a button to CC rather than it occurring as a result of you trying to Shine or wavedash. Therefore, when is CC actually effective? When my percentage range is in a good zone. So, people would pay attention to their own % more often as an open option to certain situation. Plus, its more universal as you can CC anytime you are not in a combo. Its brings a certain amount of commonality and familiarity with the situation to better promote that idea. Thus, giving you more incentive to care about your percentage.
This does not really convince anyone of any argument. Its very easily a cope out from the subject originally presented. If there is something you understand better than me, then I implore you to teach me better. Otherwise, there is not need for such remarks and all we can we really do now is admire our +1 post count.You didn't really understand what I said. You are also a bit lost when it comes to understanding high level melee player's decision making. It's all good, you're in the vast majority, lol.
I respect this and find it more in line with my thoughts on this.People dislike crouch cancelling because it limits aggressive play at lower percents. Would the game be better without the ability to ASDI down into the ground? Maybe, but there's definitely a lot of situations where the ability to land cancel and immediately counterattack seems appropriate. People like to complain about Fox's jab -> usmash combo, but guess what, one of the best counter strats to this is to CC grab jabs. CCing also puts a higher demand on approaching characters to be precise. You can't just throw out an aerial with any particular timing/spacing because it's liable to get CCed.
Personally, if I were put in charge of changing this aspect of the game, I think I would leave CCing as is and take the route of making sure all the characters have answers to it. The idea that offensive options are more limited vs. low-% opponents makes sense and seems in line with the rest of the game's mechanics. CCing only really becomes a problem when characters like Roy legitimately HAVE to grab CCing opponents in order to attack. For what it's worth, I don't think any of the top 10 or so characters need any help dealing with CCing. They all have plenty of ways to deal with it as well as abuse it themselves, and it obviously hasn't lead to Melee becoming super defensive at low %s so I don't see the problem. People really just like to complain that it's harder to approach someone at lower %s the same way they will complain about not being able to KO heavy characters or combo floaties. Whether these traits of the game are positive or negative is highly debatable and totally subjective.
You seem to miss the point of what I am talking about.Just grab and quit complaining. CC's help some characters a lot more than others, but I believe (as cc'ing is now) the result is a more balanced game. Some characters can't approach at low% really (or must do so with similar caution to someone approaching a master of CC'ing) but instead of dwelling on the problem, people who main those characters find a way around it. I don't think being forced to approach more intelligently at first as anywhere near a bad aspect of this game.