Some people actually resent crouch canceling?

[Quillion]

I can kind of see why people see L-canceling as a pointless middleman to having less landing lag, but why do some people hate crouch canceling?

 

[EPsilon933]

Because when you hit someone, you expect them to get sent flying. But then they don't and hit you back and you're on the losing side of the trade

 

[Pauer]

I think this is because before your moves become crouch canceled and punished because of it or like Epsilon said you don't get the payoff you expect, you have the belief that it should work. So when that starts to happen, you feel almost betrayed because you were convinced this should work and now it doesn't. Since most people are emotionally invested in the game, they will be frustrated and project that anger and frustration onto either themselves or their opponent, depending on what kind of person you are. Pair that with the fact that they, in their minds, had established things working that now don't, they feel may feel cheated and come out and say things like that's lame. I think it is the same way with edgehogging.
However as time progresses everyone will implement edgehogs and CCs into their game - these people who find these techniques 'gay' or 'lame' require some sort of excuse or reasoning to do it which is a flawed mindset as it slows down your progression.
Instead, you need to acknowledge your previously false understanding of the game and work on changing your spacing, watching out for percent or doing your aerials later and appreciate every opportunity to do so.

 

[Quillion]

I'm under the impression that people hate it because it feels like what shielding should be but you take damage.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

It's cause it means a lot of options are cut off till higher percentages.
There are arguments to make that it forces players to not just play 1 way throughout the game. However there are also arguments to make that it limits the amount of ways you can play at low percent.

Among the top tiers sheik vs spacies is probably a good example. below 30% sheiks options against spaceys are grab or needle. (or fair if their opponent overextend) Sheik isn't really known atm for her insane mixups or whatever but it still says something a character as good as sheik is forced to ignore her other great tools until a later percentage.

That being said it's not gonna be patched out of melee (and 99% sure it's not getting patched out of pm either) so whilst both sides can bring up fair points it doesn't matter.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This is more or less my answer,

Lastly, for the most uncommon argument against Melee – Crouch canceling (CC’ing). To define the mechanic quickly, CC’ing(or its partner, ASDI down), works by punishing someone for hitting you. Essentially, if you CC then your character does not get knocked back as far and is much more likely to not leave the ground or go into stun at all when attacked. The mechanic varies by percent and whether your character was in crouch animation or not, but consider the effect on gameplay this mechanic has. Hitting someone when they make a mistake suddenly becomes a guessing game instead of a free opportunity for outplaying someone at times. How can I know if someone is holding down when they mess up? This creates strategy in avoiding CC punishes, but it arguably reduces depth by having to space around CC punishes or using moves (such as small-range grabs) to punish opponents instead of combo-starters. Ultimately, CC’ing attempts to violate a fundamental fighting game principle of punishing the opponent when they are outplayed and converting that opening into an advantage.

Source: http://www.cpgaming.gg/guest-blog/esports-blog/negative-aspects-of-ssbm/

In addition to how stupidly effective in the times you want to CC.

 

[Kimimaru]

My only problem with it is you don't have to actually be crouching to do it unlike in 64.

 

[Quillion]

It's cause it means a lot of options are cut off till higher percentages.
There are arguments to make that it forces players to not just play 1 way throughout the game. However there are also arguments to make that it limits the amount of ways you can play at low percent.

Among the top tiers sheik vs spacies is probably a good example. below 30% sheiks options against spaceys are grab or needle. (or fair if their opponent overextend) Sheik isn't really known atm for her insane mixups or whatever but it still says something a character as good as sheik is forced to ignore her other great tools until a later percentage.

That being said it's not gonna be patched out of melee (and 99% sure it's not getting patched out of pm either) so whilst both sides can bring up fair points it doesn't matter.

TBH, I think that the speedsters having overly fast, powerful finishers is more disingenuous to balance than this is.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Lastly, for the most uncommon argument against Melee – Crouch canceling (CC’ing). To define the mechanic quickly, CC’ing(or its partner, ASDI down), works by punishing someone for hitting you. Essentially, if you CC then your character does not get knocked back as far and is much more likely to not leave the ground or go into stun at all when attacked. The mechanic varies by percent and whether your character was in crouch animation or not, but consider the effect on gameplay this mechanic has. Hitting someone when they make a mistake suddenly becomes a guessing game instead of a free opportunity for outplaying someone at times. How can I know if someone is holding down when they mess up? This creates strategy in avoiding CC punishes, but it arguably reduces depth by having to space around CC punishes or using moves (such as small-range grabs) to punish opponents instead of combo-starters. Ultimately, CC’ing attempts to violate a fundamental fighting game principle of punishing the opponent when they are outplayed and converting that opening into an advantage.

This is predominately what I find I dislike about the mechanic is that it can be used accidentally. Otherwise, it certainly adds depth to the game at a somewhat fair cost I would say. CC'ing is always effective, but its usefulness declines as percentage goes up except on many moves. If you want to try hitting someone you might try making the call to CC an incoming attack, but if it is not a move you can retaliate against you take percentage and no means to punish someone. At this rate you have limited chances per stock to use CC effectively and the more you get hit the fewer moves you can properly use it as a method against.

This is legitimately the only scenario where paying attention to your percentage matters at all in this game (except running out of time). Otherwise, your opponent cares what percentage you are at far more than you would ever care. Not to mention that I think it adds to the strategy of the game to more carefully pick your moves. When choosing what attacks to throw at someone you can consider certain moves better at lower percents like Grab because its not effected by shield or CC. While other moves open up and become more useful when the threat of CC is gone.

Unfortunately, you can accidentally CC by simply trying to input moves for other things such as wavedash or dtilt and end up CC'ing something because you were too slow to make the input and were caught holding the stick down. That aspect is not very good.

 

[Spak]

What's people's problem with CC? I'd say Peach.

 

[Quillion]

Unfortunately, you can accidentally CC by simply trying to input moves for other things such as wavedash or dtilt and end up CC'ing something because you were too slow to make the input and were caught holding the stick down. That aspect is not very good.

I call that good, convenient inputs rather than "accident".

What's people's problem with CC? I'd say Peach.

D-smash is an anti-CC move, right?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I call that good, convenient inputs rather than "accident".

I guess it again depends upon what you value.

There was game that I was playing competitively for a year ended up having patch where a character was able to heal up to 15% health from any debuff that was placed on them and completely remove the debuff. This effect was automatic. They additionally had the only ability in the entire game out of any character to break out of combos. Not only to break out of combos, but be able to inflict a large chunk of damage each time ~10% of another player's health bar.

So, this character had mechanics that rewarded a person for making mistakes and screwing up. While the opposing player who was playing well by hitting them was punished for ever trying to combo them. This is an incredibly annoying game design. Its gives the worse player the ability to be rewarded for doing nothing. While its hard for the good player to get around this.

This was clearly an overpowered character that got appropriately nerfed in the past, but it sort of embodies what CC'ing does in smash. However, its not as powerful as what I previously mentioned. I am simply saying I wish CC was implemented in deliberate manner.

I never crouch cancel intentionally. Its merely the result of me using certain moves which cause CC to happen such as wavedash or Dtilt or Shine. It is certainly convenient to have this occur, but it always feels like an accident when I never do it intentionally and get to punish someone anyway for it.

 

[JipC]

let me just hold down to opt out of every move in the game while at low% (and it doesnt get much better at mid%s), kthx

I think this is because before your moves become crouch canceled and punished because of it or like Epsilon said you don't get the payoff you expect, you have the belief that it should work. So when that starts to happen, you feel almost betrayed because you were convinced this should work and now it doesn't. Since most people are emotionally invested in the game, they will be frustrated and project that anger and frustration onto either themselves or their opponent, depending on what kind of person you are. Pair that with the fact that they, in their minds, had established things working that now don't, they feel may feel cheated and come out and say things like that's lame. I think it is the same way with edgehogging.
However as time progresses everyone will implement edgehogs and CCs into their game - these people who find these techniques 'gay' or 'lame' require some sort of excuse or reasoning to do it which is a flawed mindset as it slows down your progression.
Instead, you need to acknowledge your previously false understanding of the game and work on changing your spacing, watching out for percent or doing your aerials later and appreciate every opportunity to do so.

I think you are looking into it too deep.
PPMD talked about this before, and I fully agree with him:

Lastly, for the most uncommon argument against Melee – Crouch canceling (CC’ing). To define the mechanic quickly, CC’ing(or its partner, ASDI down), works by punishing someone for hitting you. Essentially, if you CC then your character does not get knocked back as far and is much more likely to not leave the ground or go into stun at all when attacked. The mechanic varies by percent and whether your character was in crouch animation or not, but consider the effect on gameplay this mechanic has. Hitting someone when they make a mistake suddenly becomes a guessing game instead of a free opportunity for outplaying someone at times. How can I know if someone is holding down when they mess up? This creates strategy in avoiding CC punishes, but it arguably reduces depth by having to space around CC punishes or using moves (such as small-range grabs) to punish opponents instead of combo-starters. Ultimately, CC’ing attempts to violate a fundamental fighting game principle of punishing the opponent when they are outplayed and converting that opening into an advantage.

http://www.cpgaming.gg/guest-blog/esports-blog/negative-aspects-of-ssbm/

 

[Quillion]

So since so many people agree that crouch cancelling is a blemish on Melee's high-risk-high-reward play, how can it be improved?

 

[Spak]

I actually like CC, but I can understand why people wouldn't. Melee naturally tends towards offensive play, so I feel like removing a defensive technique wouldn't really balance out any mechanics.

 

[EPsilon933]

So since so many people agree that crouch cancelling is a blemish on Melee's high-risk-high-reward play, how can it be improved?

Do more spikes/meteors. It counters CCings

 

[TobiasXK]

Do more spikes/meteors. It counters CCings

yea this is the conventional wisdom. definitely it's mixing up grabs, overheads, and spacing tricks like cross-through aerials or spaced pokes.

personally, the way the hitboxes are on stuff like stomps i think they require kind of a read—since you need to get pretty deep into their space before even getting a hitbox out, which can be reacted to—so it's not an ideal "solution". but it's what we've got.

 

[Comet7]

(some) electric attacks, meteors, and grabs all beat crouch cancel. it's just something else to keep in mind so i don't see what's wrong with it.

 

[Quillion]

I meant, if you were to change the mechanic at all, how would you do that?

 

[Spak]

I meant, if you were to change the mechanic at all, how would you do that?

I wouldn't. Melee is fine just how it is and altering mechanics may have some unforeseeable side effects.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd remove it entirely because it removes more depth than adds while adding toxic gameplay.

Rewarding the person being hit for being hit, and punishes the person with getting the hit.

Peach Dsmash does counter CC, that's no reason for it to do 50%+ in damage.

Edit: I'd accept it more or it were not the best thing to do almost 100% of the time.

 

[Beach]

CC is great when it's in your favor (Fox and Falco seem to have it easier thanks to shine but still) but it's annoying when it's against you. I don't really mind it but I could understand someone who dislikes it a lot.

 

[Agni Shine]

I'd remove it entirely because it removes more depth than adds while adding toxic gameplay.

Rewarding the person being hit for being hit, and punishes the person with getting the hit.

Peach Dsmash does counter CC, that's no reason for it to do 50%+ in damage.

Edit: I'd accept it more or it were not the best thing to do almost 100% of the time.

If CC was removed, certain characters such as peach and samus would become worse than they already are. Samus v sheik, and samus v marth would be pretty much unwinnable since it is one of the only ways for her to fight an aerial approach without being risky. I am biased because of my main, but still.

 

[pagedMov]

I can kind of see why people see L-canceling as a pointless middleman to having less landing lag, but why do some people hate crouch canceling?

Because they're bad and instead of blaming themselves for not taking into account one of the opponent's options, they'd rather blame the game.

 

[Manaconda]

I don't mind crouch cancelling, though I understand why people dislike it. I see it as more of a 'trap' that only works at lower percents in which you accept whatever damage you take for a conversion. If it worked at incredibly high percents or had no counterplay, then yes, I would hate it.

I see why it breaks a 'fundamental rule of fighting games', but Smash is very different from other fighting games. To the rest of the FGC, neutral is two characters facing each other going for pokes to convert into combos, while in Smash they see characters running back and forth like idiots trying to get in stray hits why may end up as combos.

 

[-ACE-]

This is legitimately the only scenario where paying attention to your percentage matters at all in this game (except running out of time). Otherwise, your opponent cares what percentage you are at far more than you would ever care.

LOOOOL. Chaingrab percentages? When you should jc grab vs pivot grab or dash grab? Percentages where characters land on platforms off throws? Percentages that allow throw combos or other combos to work? Looking to see if you are over 100% or not when you grab ledge? A large chunk of intelligent defensive/combo DI is based on your own%. Good players base lots of decisions off damage percent.

My only problem with it is you don't have to actually be crouching to do it unlike in 64.

Yes you do have to be crouching. Otherwise you're only getting ASDI down (same as holding c-down). Crouching itself reduces hitstun by 50% as well as kb in general, making a true CC much different. But ASDI down alone is often the better choice (as with the true CC) depending on what move you're hit with and %.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Because they're bad and instead of blaming themselves for not taking into account one of the opponent's options, they'd rather blame the game.

I accept it for what it is, that does not mean I blindly say I think it is a good tech.

This also misses the point of game design discussion. Telling someone to shut up an learn means nothing in terms of debate and discussion over game design.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

LOOOOL. Chaingrab percentages? When you should jc grab vs pivot grab or dash grab? Percentages where characters land on platforms off throws? Percentages that allow throw combos or other combos to work? Looking to see if you are over 100% or not when you grab ledge? A large chunk of intelligent defensive/combo DI is based on your own%. Good players base lots of decisions off damage percent.

I was referring to your own percentage and not your paying attention to other character's combo DI. Along with the idea that you often do not pay attention to your own percentage with much concern most of the time. I should have reedited that part to be more obvious about my intentions.

Defensive actions in a combo are the biggest applications so far in the game. However, I am not certain to what extent people care specifically about their percentage. I know of a few percentage thresholds as Marth against say Sheik and Fox. For example, Shiek's Dthrow on Marth can be DI'd in such a way to place him on a platform of BF/YS/PS even as low as 0%. Or the fact that Fox would try no DI shine to force marth to pivot grab at a certain percentage range else Fox escapes.

Other than a few specific, common situations I am not aware of a person studying percentage ranges to avoid X action or follow-ups. Combo's are incredibly varied and complex and do not lend itself well to studying your own percentage to closely beyond some very common scenarios. Or, knowing approximate flag points. "Oh, I am at >120% or something Marth might try SideB -> Utilt on me." ">100% ledge options suck now". Otherwise, its match-up dependent and seemingly rare to care about your percentage.

From my discussions with other players and my own experiences most often they never care about percentage except in the situations as I mentioned which are extremely common. Otherwise, the natural reaction is to focus mainly on the situation at hand. If you are hit by Falco's Dair you do not have to worry about your percentage at all. Your concern is the type of follow-ups created from being hit by Dair. Your reaction to a situation is therefore based on placement and moves used rather than percentage you are at. You do not need feedback on your percentage to know how high you will go as the height you go is all the feedback you need to make decisions.

The idea to a bigger argument in all of this is I am thinking that crouch canceling being regulate by a button would more universally expand the notion that knowing your own percentage is important. You consciously press a button to CC rather than it occurring as a result of you trying to Shine or wavedash. Therefore, when is CC actually effective? When my percentage range is in a good zone. So, people would pay attention to their own % more often as an open option to certain situation. Plus, its more universal as you can CC anytime you are not in a combo. Its brings a certain amount of commonality and familiarity with the situation to better promote that idea. Thus, giving you more incentive to care about your percentage.

 

[Bones0]

People dislike crouch cancelling because it limits aggressive play at lower percents. Would the game be better without the ability to ASDI down into the ground? Maybe, but there's definitely a lot of situations where the ability to land cancel and immediately counterattack seems appropriate. People like to complain about Fox's jab -> usmash combo, but guess what, one of the best counter strats to this is to CC grab jabs. CCing also puts a higher demand on approaching characters to be precise. You can't just throw out an aerial with any particular timing/spacing because it's liable to get CCed.

Personally, if I were put in charge of changing this aspect of the game, I think I would leave CCing as is and take the route of making sure all the characters have answers to it. The idea that offensive options are more limited vs. low-% opponents makes sense and seems in line with the rest of the game's mechanics. CCing only really becomes a problem when characters like Roy legitimately HAVE to grab CCing opponents in order to attack. For what it's worth, I don't think any of the top 10 or so characters need any help dealing with CCing. They all have plenty of ways to deal with it as well as abuse it themselves, and it obviously hasn't lead to Melee becoming super defensive at low %s so I don't see the problem. People really just like to complain that it's harder to approach someone at lower %s the same way they will complain about not being able to KO heavy characters or combo floaties. Whether these traits of the game are positive or negative is highly debatable and totally subjective.

 

[-ACE-]

I was referring to your own percentage and not your paying attention to other character's combo DI. Along with the idea that you often do not pay attention to your own percentage with much concern most of the time. I should have reedited that part to be more obvious about my intentions.

Defensive actions in a combo are the biggest applications so far in the game. However, I am not certain to what extent people care specifically about their percentage. I know of a few percentage thresholds as Marth against say Sheik and Fox. For example, Shiek's Dthrow on Marth can be DI'd in such a way to place him on a platform of BF/YS/PS even as low as 0%. Or the fact that Fox would try no DI shine to force marth to pivot grab at a certain percentage range else Fox escapes.

Other than a few specific, common situations I am not aware of a person studying percentage ranges to avoid X action or follow-ups. Combo's are incredibly varied and complex and do not lend itself well to studying your own percentage to closely beyond some very common scenarios. Or, knowing approximate flag points. "Oh, I am at >120% or something Marth might try SideB -> Utilt on me." ">100% ledge options suck now". Otherwise, its match-up dependent and seemingly rare to care about your percentage.

From my discussions with other players and my own experiences most often they never care about percentage except in the situations as I mentioned which are extremely common. Otherwise, the natural reaction is to focus mainly on the situation at hand. If you are hit by Falco's Dair you do not have to worry about your percentage at all. Your concern is the type of follow-ups created from being hit by Dair. Your reaction to a situation is therefore based on placement and moves used rather than percentage you are at. You do not need feedback on your percentage to know how high you will go as the height you go is all the feedback you need to make decisions.

The idea to a bigger argument in all of this is I am thinking that crouch canceling being regulate by a button would more universally expand the notion that knowing your own percentage is important. You consciously press a button to CC rather than it occurring as a result of you trying to Shine or wavedash. Therefore, when is CC actually effective? When my percentage range is in a good zone. So, people would pay attention to their own % more often as an open option to certain situation. Plus, its more universal as you can CC anytime you are not in a combo. Its brings a certain amount of commonality and familiarity with the situation to better promote that idea. Thus, giving you more incentive to care about your percentage.

You didn't really understand what I said. You are also a bit lost when it comes to understanding high level melee player's decision making. It's all good, you're in the vast majority, lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You didn't really understand what I said. You are also a bit lost when it comes to understanding high level melee player's decision making. It's all good, you're in the vast majority, lol.

This does not really convince anyone of any argument. Its very easily a cope out from the subject originally presented. If there is something you understand better than me, then I implore you to teach me better. Otherwise, there is not need for such remarks and all we can we really do now is admire our +1 post count.

What a way to kill what could have been a good learning experience for myself or others. But, I suppose this is not really the place unless its directed at crouch canceling in some larger scheme of things due to off-topic. Since you would like to end it so be it.

Onto other threads!

 

[-ACE-]

I'm not going to counter argue when you add 4 extra paragraphs riddled with irrelevancy to your post. I am also on my phone so cherry-picking quotes from that mess would take all day. No need to get childish when someone calls you on your misinformation.

Take another look at combo DI and the 2 things that govern your decision making: your location on stage relative to platforms/ledge, and your percent. One's own combo DI is one of the most important aspects of melee in the latter years of the metagame's progression.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People dislike crouch cancelling because it limits aggressive play at lower percents. Would the game be better without the ability to ASDI down into the ground? Maybe, but there's definitely a lot of situations where the ability to land cancel and immediately counterattack seems appropriate. People like to complain about Fox's jab -> usmash combo, but guess what, one of the best counter strats to this is to CC grab jabs. CCing also puts a higher demand on approaching characters to be precise. You can't just throw out an aerial with any particular timing/spacing because it's liable to get CCed.

Personally, if I were put in charge of changing this aspect of the game, I think I would leave CCing as is and take the route of making sure all the characters have answers to it. The idea that offensive options are more limited vs. low-% opponents makes sense and seems in line with the rest of the game's mechanics. CCing only really becomes a problem when characters like Roy legitimately HAVE to grab CCing opponents in order to attack. For what it's worth, I don't think any of the top 10 or so characters need any help dealing with CCing. They all have plenty of ways to deal with it as well as abuse it themselves, and it obviously hasn't lead to Melee becoming super defensive at low %s so I don't see the problem. People really just like to complain that it's harder to approach someone at lower %s the same way they will complain about not being able to KO heavy characters or combo floaties. Whether these traits of the game are positive or negative is highly debatable and totally subjective.

I respect this and find it more in line with my thoughts on this.

I can see this tech working and viable for some deeper player.

Not so much when it is so effective and some characters are extremely limited in what they can do. I'd be a lot more ok with it if it weren't so effective as is.

 

[-ACE-]

Just grab and quit complaining. CC's help some characters a lot more than others, but I believe (as cc'ing is now) the result is a more balanced game. Some characters can't approach at low% really (or must do so with similar caution to someone approaching a master of CC'ing) but instead of dwelling on the problem, people who main those characters find a way around it. I don't think being forced to approach more intelligently at first as anywhere near a bad aspect of this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just grab and quit complaining. CC's help some characters a lot more than others, but I believe (as cc'ing is now) the result is a more balanced game. Some characters can't approach at low% really (or must do so with similar caution to someone approaching a master of CC'ing) but instead of dwelling on the problem, people who main those characters find a way around it. I don't think being forced to approach more intelligently at first as anywhere near a bad aspect of this game.

You seem to miss the point of what I am talking about.

I am not discussing to man up and deal with it, I am discussing things that if someone were to introduce this what could be refined. Yes some get more reward out of a CC, but some characters have large issues with it or it reduces depth if it becomes too efficient.

And sometimes it is.

I'll find anyways I can to get around it, that is what I do with Melee. That is not what my main point of discussion is though,

 

[Bones0]

As a general guideline for combatting CCing, I recommend these tools (separated into general and specific sections):

- Movement: just moving in and out of their range with dashes/WDs/jumps/dodges can often bait CC counters and allow you to punish their lag
- Spacing: hit them in such a way that you aren't spending lag time within range of their CC counters; this can include rising aerials, aerial shine DJ away, or just play horizontal spacing
- Approach with shield: if Samus is trying to CC dsmash a SHFFL'd aerial, just empty hop or run up shield to bait the attack
- Late aerial into shield: depending on the strength of the move, timing, character's weight, and percent, you can often do an aerial and get your shield up before they are able to CC punish

- Grab
- Projectiles
- Spikes: moves that do not pop the opponent into the air can still be CCed, but cannot be ASDI'd down in order to land cancel, which is the aspect of CCing that usually leads to quick counterattacks
- Multihit attacks: Fox's drill, Peach dsmash, Sheik dsmash, Samus fair; some are safer than others, but even if they are able to land cancel all of the hits of an attack, you are better able to drift away or shield after