Some fox questions

[Orancube]

Hi guys, I got some questions I need answered :3.
Hopefully someone can help me. I'll cut right to the chase.

1. Upthrow -> Upair fox
At low percentages it's impossible to hit certain characters with it right? (Cpt Falcon for example).
What's the best alternative out of a grab?
On levels with platforms I up-throw and they fall on a platform, if they roll in one direction, is it possible to hit them with an up-air? Because I find it hard to connect the up-air, or they shield it. (Or is backair the better option?)
(is there a thread with roll invincibility frame data?)

2. What exactly is the use of shine into backair?
Most of the time I find it way easier to stand near the edge and backair, or ledgehang -> backair.
When do you use it?

3. I play PAL, so marth for example falls over from shines.
What are good follow ups when you hit a shinedrill? Thunders combo?Can cpt falcon stop a shine into upsmash with a jab?

4. DI
How do I train this?
I'm not sure when exactly to press a direction to get out of a combo?
When I run do a nair, but I get hit instead of hitting my opponent, I basically have no time left to DI am I right?
I feel like I'm ''too slow'' to respond with DI. If you have to use the c-stick too I'd have even less time because my thumbs are usually near A and Y.

5. Is there a good thread on matchups?

Thanks ^^.

 

[HarnessedSea]

I'm still kinda a newbie, so I can't help with all of them, but I'll try and let other people agree or disagree with me.

1. U-throw still works, as most characters topple over and have to tech when they hit the ground, you can chase them then (although maybe d-throw would work better in that case). And yes, you can hit them with an u-air if you're confident of their tech. Otherwise, bair or nair stays out for longer, so I think they have a larger chance to hit. And about that frame data, here: http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-fox-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285177/

2. I think it's just for style, as bair by itself seems to be easier. Correct me if I'm wrong, though; I wanna be surprised.

3. If you time it quickly, falcon can't get out of a shine into upsmash. If you're too slow, then yeah, he can. Also, I guess either continuing it with another shine drill (character-dependent) or maybe into a smash (down or up) could work. Either case, you can get something more out of it.

4. I'm not exactly too sure how to train it... I just played alot of games against a friend to get the hang of it, and after a while, I did. Combo DI is a completely different thing though: in survival DI, you want to smash the control stick in a perpendicular angle to the direction you've been sent flying in. The angle should send you towards one of the top corners of the stage. Combo DI, on the other hand, is when you smash it in a direction that makes you fly farther rather than shorter so your opponent has a harder time hitting you again. So the moment you get hit in the start of a combo, you should smash your control stick in an outwards direction.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the nair, you always can DI any hit. Also, one of your thumbs should always be on the control stick, so you can always DI in time.

5. Here: http://smashboards.com/threads/cunn...loud-version-5-00-2009-update-complete.35050/

Hope that helps.

 

[fennel69]

After Uthrow you can Utilt or Usmash if your opponent has enough % for it but not for AUA.

In PAL you can Ftilt, Dtilt, Dsmash or (harder, and I think it depends of your opponent's DI) Usmash. Maybe Utilt.

 

[ERayz]

1. It's true that some characters cannot be up-throw --> up-aired at low percent.

Falcon can jump after your up-throw before touching the ground, which makes it harder to follow-up. If he doesn' jump AND does not DI or DI poorly, you can up-smash. If they don't jump, I like to techchase them and regrab, or up-smash them out of their tech, depending on where they are on stage. At higher %, up-tilt or nair is preferable of course.

Against Falco/Fox, around the 20-40% range, you can up-throw, SH up-air, which sets up an easy combo (either grab or up-smash)

Sheik you can up-throw to SH up-air. Maybe not at 0%, can't remember

And, despite what people say, do not up-throw --> up-air Ganon, because Ganon has time to jump ---> Dair before you reach him most of the time. If you want to up-air him after an up-throw, you gotta delay your double jump to mess up his timing.

2. Shine backair looks nice, but it's not very useful. 99% of the time, you have a better option. I sometimes use it when I hang on the ledge when I try to shinespike, I bair immediately in case the shine misses. But even then, sometimes the shine hits and I save them because the bair cancels the shine's knockback. Do not shine-bair outside of friendlies

3. Since I don't play PAL, I don't know what's good against Marth (I don't know what distance he's travelling when falling from shine.
Waveshine --> upsmash on Falcon is reliable enough to use it, but beware of two things:
- If he CC the shine, he might have time to grab you before you hit him with the up-smash
- If he SDI the shine away from you, the timing will be very tight for you to up-smash without him being too far away from you, I believe it's still possible with a perfect, full-length waveshine.

4.
-To practice DI, play with people who destroy you, and try your best to survive. You'll probably be too slow to DI in time against them, since they'll most likely hit you at unexpected timings, but when you'll get to play against players at your level, you'll have crazy DI, since they are slower, and you can predict when they'll hit you easier.

-To DI out of a combo, it always depends on the match-up and the moves used. It's always situational, just experiment with different DI when you are getting comboe'd and see what works best.

-I don't know the frame data at all, but when you are getting hit, you have time to DI on reaction ( I don't think it's right to say "on reaction", cause the timing may be too tight for human reaction, IDK), but once you get more experienced, you'll DI instantly when you'll get hit, out of pure reflexes, even if you weren't expecting a hit. That's how I do, at least.

-C-stick DI, ASDI or whatever, you don't need them. Where I'm from (Eastern Canada) nobody uses this ****, and our players have some crazy DI (Vwins, Kage, Bam, PKMVodka)

5. Threads on match-ups, I don't know.

 

[Stijn]

Bijna alles is hierboven al uitgelegd, maarja.

1. Dit vind ik ook interessant, op Fox/Falco is het slim om direct Up-Smash te doen. Of, als je kan, chaingrabben tot een bepaald % dat comfortabel voelt om van te comboën. En op Falcon doe ik tegenwoordig ShineUpsmash op 0%, want als je (in PAL) Falcon Upthrowt, valt hij niet om als je in een keer UpSmashed. Op Marth/Peach/Puff is het gewoon altijd te doen. Sheik is soms wat lastig op lagere %, maar latere % is peanut. Als je iemand op een platform gooit missen ze vaak de tech, dus maak een mid-jump Uair. (Hierbij heb ik het over de linker/rechterplatforms, niet de middelste, gewoon ff voor de zekerheid ) Die raakt altijd als je het goed doet. Als de tegenstander wel wegteched ren ik er altijd achteraan met een JC-Grab na de Uair.

2. Dit is gewoon volledig voor de stijlpunten, voor mij heeft het een positieve invloed op mijn zelfvertouwen/eigendunk om een beetje technisch te zijn though. Maar echt nodig is het nooit.

3. Ik doe op Marth bijna nooit Thunders. Ik probeer te readen waar hij heen gaat, en ga als ik hem heb voor U-ThrowUair. Soms kan dit ook op reactie, maar het is beter om te readen. Als je het goed doet kan Falcon er niet uit jabben nee. Oefen thuis tech skill op een CPU, level 1 tot 6. En ga waveshines oefenen, dan komt die UpSmash vanzelf.

4. Als er een ding is in Melee dat ik niet goed kan, dan is het DI. Dit kost mij ook letterlijk toernooimatches. Ik begin nu ongeveer twee maanden een beetje reactievermogen hiervoor op te bouwen. Ik denk dat de manier om dit te oefenen gewoon heel veel spelen is, maar zoals ERayz zegt is het denk ik slim om dit te oefenen op mensen die je kapot maken. Maar dat kan ik niet bevestigen, mijn DI is echt iets waar ik aan moet werken.

Ik weet alleen niet precies wie je bent Orancube, haha kan je mij je nederlandse naam geven?

Hoop dat dit een beetje helpt

 

[Orancube]

Hey stijn, Ik ben Krul haha, foto zonder bril en korter haar!
Thanks voor de tips . op een lv 1 cpu lukken die combo's wel, op lv 5 ofzo is het super irritant omdat ze je de heel tijd overal uit jabben.

And thanks for all the answers guys ^^, Playing again tonight with some friends so I'm going to try some stuff out.

 

[SAUS]

I think you may misunderstand DI or something. You only need to be holding the direction you want to DI after the hit lag of the attack ends. The hit lag is the short time you are stunned right after someone hits you - some moves have more hit lag, like ganon's down-air or samus's charged up cannon. However, you have even more time than this short duration during hit lag. If you see an attack coming, and you know it will hit you (you are in the afterswing of some move you used for example or maybe using up-b to recover and expect to get hit out of it), you can get your input for DI ready and DI it like a champ.

The coolest thing about DI, to me, is that you have to know you're going to get hit. It takes a lot of practice and training and you can only really practice it during real matches against people.

As for getting out of combos with it, picture this example:
Captain falcon uses his down-air and it pops you up. You didn't DI it at all because he was too quick, and so you just go straight up. Then he has some options. For now, lets simplify it and say he can either hit you with an up-air, or a knee.
A) He knees you. You want what's called survival DI. You want to angle your joy stick in a perpendicular direction from the way the knee will send you. It's okay if you don't know the exact angle, you can just DI up and towards the stage (up-left if the knee is going to send you to the right for example). This will cause you to go up towards the corner of the kill box and you have increased likelihood of surviving.
B) He up-airs you and is planning to combo you. You want to DI "with" the attack. what I mean by this is you want the attack to send you too far or towards an awkward place. Down and away from Falcon is close enough to the correct angle you want for your DI. You will appear to move farther away from the up-air and he will be unable to follow up with another attack.

That's a rather specific example, but I hope it helps clarify what you want to be doing with DI. There are a lot more factors that can come into this:
- if you're at low damage, and he knees you, you actually want to do something similar to how you DI'd the up-air in the previous example. Otherwise he can follow up with a grab since you will be close and in the air after he hits you.
- If there is a wall behind you and he knees you, you want to DI just like the above point because it will be more likely to make you hit the wall where you can tech/survive. If you DI up and inwards, you may go over the wall and die.
- Sometimes you want to just land on a platform or something. DIing so that you move up higher to a platform after an up-air for example can give you an option to get out of the combo (note: this is not always good since it lets him tech chase).

There are just a lot of options for DI and if you do it right, combos and kills on you become a hell of a lot harder.