Solution to the Overly Defensive No-Lcancel Delema

[Blue sHell]

For those that might not know what I'm talking about:

Overly Defensive L-cancel Delema:
If there is no L-canceling and the land lag that brawl has reduced isn't significantly reduced ENOUGH, the game will be overly defensive because aerialing a ground opponent would be absolutely stupid do to the fact that shieldgrabbing would always be the best choice to do. Therefore the game would be extremely ground based and defensive and the only reason to do aerials is if you wanted to attack a person already in the air.

*Disclaimer* Don't think I just pulled this out of my as$$, this has been deducted by tons of people on smashboards that actually know what would be the serious side-effect of not having L-canceling or at least not having that much lag upon landing



Solution?:
In this latest video
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=BIYQTuHCKQs - Ikki(Kirby) vs T2(Kirby)
It shows Kirby, a character we're all familiar with from Melee doing alot of backairs close to the ground. Here we could see in clarity(unlike other vids) of how much land lag there is compared to Melee.

Now this is where I need effort from you guys, or at least SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT I MEAN. Could somone crank on Melee and see how many frames of lag Kirby's Backair has upon landing with an L-cancel with Action Replay or something and then compare it to this video. It would debunk all our fears of brawl being overly defensive and ease us a bit.



If somehow this turns into a flame thread I might just kill myself because this truly will be a breakthrough for alot of people whether you like it or not.

Mookierah I'm hoping you have Action Replay.

PS: Please, if you don't understand what I'm asking for exactly here, don't post your opinion on the matter. Honestly, please, from the bottom of my heart I don't mean any offense by saying this.

 

[The Bino]

~ subscribe ~

to see how things turn out

 

[Blue sHell]

Once, Mookierah, Sliq, and a couple of other people log on we'll heopfully get some answers. I wish I could get some myself but I'm not at home at the moment.


Mooooooookkkkkkkkkkieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeraaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!111

 

[gnuf]

i wouldnt say it would be overly defensive. it will just give more oppurtunity for defensive character to play a better defense than other character. even though shield grabbing will probably be used the most in the game.

 

[ArgentStew]

I thought fast falling aerials l-canceled when they hit the ground (that's what Gimpy said anyway in his E 4 All impressions thread)... Is that false or did they take that out or something?

 

[Blue sHell]

i wouldnt say it would be overly defensive. it will just give more oppurtunity for defensive character to play a better defense than other character. even though shield grabbing will probably be used the most in the game.

In Melee try playing a serious match with no L-canceling and see how it turns out. No kidding, it's not just "defensive characts play better defensively" its 'defence is the only strategy'. Every character could shieldgrab, and every character could space ground attacks, defensiveness of characters really doesn't play into this.

The only thing people would ever do is poke at their opponents shields from a far and a crap-ton of grabbing. Characters with an airgrab would be overused and aerial approaches would be something noobs do.

Go on the Advanced Search and type in L-cancel and find the thread on here explaining more about it. It's the thread that confirms that the L-cancel in E4All was taken out.

Again, this isn't a thing I just made up. This is the TRUTH of what would happen if there will be too much landing lag/or no L-canceling.

I thought fast falling aerials l-canceled when they hit the ground (that's what Gimpy said anyway in his E 4 All impressions thread)... Is that false or did they take that out or something?

Confirmed to be taken out.

 

[blooagga]

I saw a fastfall in there I think at 1:06, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ArgentStew]

Thanks... I still have to be optimistic and say it will work out though... If lag is going to be a real issue, I have to believe that someone will discover a new way to l-cancel or counter shield grabbing or something of the like...particularly when we all have the game... :/

 

[Blue sHell]

I saw a fastfall in there I think at 1:06, correct me if I'm wrong.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Eggm]

You could always space your ariels. But I hope L-canceling returns.

 

[EatChildren]

I think people need to get over mission Melee techniques, which were likely unintentional by developers, and focus on exploring new gameplay mechanics for new techniques.

Brawl plays differently to Melee in the same way Melee plays differently to Smash64. Play, learn, adapt.

 

[Blue sHell]

You could always space your ariels. But I hope L-canceling returns.

Even if aerials were spaced, lag time on the floor would still be long enough to run up and grab.

I think people need to get over mission Melee techniques, which were likely unintentional by developers, and focus on exploring new gameplay mechanics for new techniques.

Brawl plays differently to Melee in the same way Melee plays differently to Smash64. Play, learn, adapt.

Did you read the part where I said NOT to start crap like this? Seriously, don't start this on my thread. Don't.

The things that I'm talking about ARE IN BRAWL. THEY ARE. THE THINGS IM SPEAKING ABOUT are the same as melee. I'm not talking about the game overall. I'm talking about land lag. And if there is too much of it in ANY game like super smash bros it'd be an overly campy game. I'm sorry but it doesn't seem like you understand what I'm putting forth here, please don't comment back.

 

[EatChildren]

Did you read the part where I said NOT to start crap like this? Seriously, don't start this on my thread. Don't.

The things that I'm talking about ARE IN BRAWL. THEY ARE. THE THINGS IM SPEAKING ABOUT are the same as melee. I'm not talking about the game overall. I'm talking about land lag. And if there is too much of it in ANY game like super smash bros it'd be an overly campy game. I'm sorry but it doesn't seem like you understand what I'm putting forth here, please don't comment back.

Wow, chill the **** out and dont be a ****, ok mate? I didn't mean any harm.

 

[Fox Machine]

Even if aerials were spaced, lag time on the floor would still be long enough to run up and grab.

Now how are you gonna do that when you can't wavedash out of shield?

 

[SteveTV]

I think people need to get over mission Melee techniques, which were likely unintentional by developers, and focus on exploring new gameplay mechanics for new techniques.

Brawl plays differently to Melee in the same way Melee plays differently to Smash64. Play, learn, adapt.

Correct me if I'm wrong, bu wasn't L-canceling in 64 and melee? Do you think they would "miss" it twice?

I think it will be in. I would imagine either it's not in the demo, or it's really hard to hit with a wii remote (that is what they're using right?)

Either way, I'm curious to see what comes of this.

 

[Heliosmash]

Did you read the part where I said NOT to start crap like this? Seriously, don't start this on my thread. Don't.

/pitches tent
/starts a campfire
/takes a dump in a corner of the thread

 

[Lightning Ice]

Hopefully this topic will get somewhere...

 

[Chexr]

All I can say is learn to space better.

 

[yoshi_fan]

This is interesting

~Suscribe~

(Goes to clean e-mail from SWF spam -.-U)

 

[Coselm]

No l-cancelling is not that big of a deal.

For one, Gimpyfish said in his Brawl Impressions that you could l-cancel by doing an aerial fter you fast fall. If they have changed this in the final copy of the game, then:

You can just make sure you land behind the person!

That is an excellent tactic to avoid geting shield-grabbed.

Or better yet:

Don't constantly come in with an aerial attack if you know the opponent will shield grab you!

You act like shield grabbing is broken and will ruin the game. If you don't remember, people were meant to be able to shield grab in Melee...

 

[WastingPenguins]

No l-cancelling is not that big of a deal.

For one, Gimpyfish said in his Brawl Impressions that you could l-cancel by doing an aerial fter you fast fall. If they have changed this in the final copy of the game, then:

You can just make sure you land behind the person!

That is an excellent tactic to avoid geting shield-grabbed.

Or better yet:

Don't constantly come in with an aerial attack if you know the opponent will shield grab you!

You act like shield grabbing is broken and will ruin the game. If you don't remember, people were meant to be able to shield grab in Melee...

Of course you were meant to be able to shieldgrab in Melee-- however, this ability was balanced by the ability to pull off quick aerials with little land lag. Without l-cancelling, it's possible that shieldgrabbing could become a bit overpowered.

As for your second suggestion: that's exactly what people are afraid of!-- that they WON'T be able to come in with aerial attacks now, thus turning the game into a ground-based campfest.

 

[greeneggsnsam]

ground-based campfest.

Jigglypuff will become absolutely awful

 

[WastingPenguins]

Jigglypuff will become absolutely awful

Ha, actually I think just the opposite would happen. Jigg's floatiness and aerial mobility would make her one of the few characters who can shield pressure with aerials without jumping right into her opponent's shield grab.

Of course this is all speculative at this point. It's difficult to say just exactly where the offense/defense balance will lie without playing the game (of course) but right now it certainly does look like it might shift toward defense. Can't wait for detailed impressions from pro players after the Japanese release.

 

[greeneggsnsam]

it certainly does look like it might shift toward defense.

Unfortunately I play an aggressive game, especially with Jiggs.

Now I think about it, I agree with your point about the floatiness- even in Melee I never get shield grabbed because Jiggs can float away and land out of range. It looks like characters like C.Falcon will lose out (he has to be played offensively, pretty much). Still, if you go for the knee, you will end up going past them and not getting grabbed anyway.