So, why don't I ever see people doing this?

[KillerqueenxTusk]

I've looked through every competitive guide for smash bros, and everywhere online, but nobody seems to know that this technique even exists. It's dead simple too.

I discovered this technique about half a year ago, and nobody else seems to know about it. I've only seen one or two people doing it online, and even then, that's just in the past month... and I've been doing it online the whole time.

I haven't found an official name for it. I call it a running back-smash. Literally all you do is run in one direction, then instantly turn around and smash in the opposite direction. You can do it the way I do, by running (full run, not short sprint) in one direction, then instantly turning around and hitting the C-stick (smash) at the exact same time. It can also be done manually with only the stick and the A button, but requires precise timing.

All I ever see online is people jumping towards me and mashing f-airs. It seems to be an overly-used FOO strategy, so I'm hoping that by making this information more available, we can change that by countering with this. It works especially well with characters that have long-reaching F-smash hitboxes, like Cloud or Megaman

Basically, when they try to approach you from the air with f-air, you run backwards to get out of the way, then instantly turn around and f-smash to punish. Can ALSO be used to punish people who always sidestep when you run towards them, as you can actually run PAST them, then turn around and smash *just* as their sidestep ends.

 

[Duplighost]

Do you mean just a basic turnaround smash attack?

Run...let go of joystick temporarily...and smash attack the other direction?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

That's known as a 'perfect pivot' and falls under that category. Pivot grabs, pivot smashes, etc. They're all grouped together under pivot moves. It's not that it's not there it's just lumped in with something different.

 

[KillerqueenxTusk]

Ummm... aren't pivots based on actually pivoting, which is where you tilt the stick forward and then backwards really fast so that you move back just a tad without actually going into the running animation?

That's not what I'm talking about.

Also no, you don't have to let go of the stick at all to do it.

Literally just run (not dash, not sprint, full run) (you can run across the entire platform if you want to. If they sit on the edge you can literally run all the way behind them from the other side of the level and immediately turn around and smash them.... Look, you know how to run in one direction and turn around and immediately do a tilt, right? You can do the exact same thing with smash attacks. All I'm sayin

 

[UpsettedFizz]

Maybe post a video of you performing this technique?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Ummm... aren't pivots based on actually pivoting, which is where you tilt the stick forward and then backwards really fast so that you move back just a tad without actually going into the running animation?

That's not what I'm talking about.

Also no, you don't have to let go of the stick at all to do it.

Literally just run (not dash, not sprint, full run) (you can run across the entire platform if you want to. If they sit on the edge you can literally run all the way behind them from the other side of the level and immediately turn around and smash them.... Look, you know how to run in one direction and turn around and immediately do a tilt, right? You can do the exact same thing with smash attacks. All I'm sayin

Actually what you're mixing up with pivoting is called 'wave dashing' or 'dash dancing'
What you're talking about is a pivot.
What you think is a pivot is a wave dash or dash dance.
look up smash definitions and that'll tell you.

Edit: I looked up the smash dictionary describing advanced techniques. What you're describing sounds like a variation on this: "Stutter Step"/"Kara Smash"- Cancelling the initial frames of a Dash with a F-smash. This can be used in combination with Foxtrotting to do what seems like an F-smash immediately after a Dash (which some people have come to call an "S Smash"/"S-Smash").

 

[KillerqueenxTusk]

Actually what you're mixing up with pivoting is called 'wave dashing' or 'dash dancing'
What you're talking about is a pivot.
What you think is a pivot is a wave dash or dash dance.
look up smash definitions and that'll tell you.

Edit: I looked up the smash dictionary describing advanced techniques. What you're describing sounds like a variation on this: "Stutter Step"/"Kara Smash"- Cancelling the initial frames of a Dash with a F-smash. This can be used in combination with Foxtrotting to do what seems like an F-smash immediately after a Dash (which some people have come to call an "S Smash"/"S-Smash").

I'm not talking about any of those things though. I've looked all of those up and none of them describe what I'm talking about. It's not stutter stepping, kara smashing, foxtrotting, pivoting, or wave/dash dancing. All of those involve taking short dashes and cancelling the initial frames/stopping before you build up momentum.

You can do this from a full run, with full momentum, even with characters like Sonic.


I'm talking, you can play as (eg) Sonic, full run across the entire platform (never letting the stick return to neutral) and then immediately cancel into a smash in the opposite direction.

This doesn't really cancel your running animation, so much as it immediately stops a run and does an f-smash in the opposite direction, with no frames inbetween (except for the f-smash startup). What it ACTUALLY does is cancel out the turning around animation that comes from having too much momentum/running too far. You can do the exact same thing with f-tilt, but everybody knows that. Nobody knows they can do it with f-smash

 

[Dig Dug]

Yes, I've known about this for awhile, and I'm certain other people do too... It's very simple, as you said, but all the confusion here is making me... well, confused.

Literally just run in one direction, and at any point input a smash in the opposite direction (I find a+b smash works best for this). You'll do a turnaround fsmash without even needing to stop your dash. This is what you're talking about, right?

 

[KillerqueenxTusk]

^ Yes, exactly, and yet nobody knows about it or does it. Lots of people will do it with tilts, but nobody uses it with smashes, and it's absolutely essential for playing characters like Megaman and Olimar. Hell, I fought someone who could do it the other day, and his Olimar was downright scary. He mastered it and now his spacing game is insane.

I think it's best used for fake-outs or punishing approaches. Probably works best with characters like Sonic, Megaman, Olimar, Falcon, Little Mac, and anyone else who is fast on land and/or has a good f-smash.

I can't believe that nobody has ever really named it or talked about it before though.

It's nice though. Anybody who learns how to play from youtube, or wiki articles won't ever hear about it, so it's like a secret technique

 

[Dig Dug]

Looking through the smash dictionary, I found this:

"Turnaround Cancel"- Running in one direction, then instantly turning to use a move such as a F-tilt or F-smash back in the other direction, in some cases resulting in you using the move while retaining some momentum causing you to slide in the original direction you were running in.

Sounds right.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Ah ok I didn't get what you were saying before. The guy above me says it right.
Sorry though how do you put your joystick in the exact opposite direction and fsmash without accidentally pivoting? I did something similar with special moves (b-reverse) but this is obviously not that.

edit: Now as for why people don't use it? If you're sliding in the direction you're dashing initially there's a good chance you'll misspace especially if the fsmash is short-range.
If you're sliding in the opposite direction that you're smashing and you don't have a smash that has both good range and speed like Olimar and Megaman? You're going to seriously get whiff punished.
On the plus side it's a good tactic for surprising people and spacing but it's incredibly difficult and in the case of some characters situational if not impossible to do entirely due to how long or short a characters fsmash is.
It's different character to character.

 

[Thinkaman]

F-smash and f-tilt are legal actions out of the normal running turnaround animation. This is not so much a technique, as simply a move you are allowed to do--just like a pivot grab, which has a unique substate/animation.

It's been widely known since the 3DS demo, and sees modest use in top level play as a defensive pivot option.

 

[KillerqueenxTusk]

^ It's not a pivot though. We've already covered this, if you pivot, you can't do this. They're different techniques even if they seem similar, mine takes far less skill to use lol

Ah ok I didn't get what you were saying before. The guy above me says it right.
Sorry though how do you put your joystick in the exact opposite direction and fsmash without accidentally pivoting? I did something similar with special moves (b-reverse) but this is obviously not that.

edit: Now as for why people don't use it? If you're sliding in the direction you're dashing initially there's a good chance you'll misspace especially if the fsmash is short-range.
If you're sliding in the opposite direction that you're smashing and you don't have a smash that has both good range and speed like Olimar and Megaman? You're going to seriously get whiff punished.
On the plus side it's a good tactic for surprising people and spacing but it's incredibly difficult and in the case of some characters situational if not impossible to do entirely due to how long or short a characters fsmash is.
It's different character to character.

Doing this, you actually hold the direction to go into a full run, so it's impossible to pivot

Well, I did say it works best for characters like that. Cloud, Megaman, Olimar, Little Mac. A fast character with a shorter range smash attack can still use it for sidestep or roll punishes too though. Instead of running right at the enemy and attacking with Little Mac, you can run past them and F-smash them. I've also done the same thing to punish and KO someone who rolls up from the ledge

Also, it's really hard to whiff with this if you time it to hit right when they land.

 

[MarioManTAW]

^ It's not a pivot though. We've already covered this, if you pivot, you can't do this. They're different techniques even if they seem similar, mine takes far less skill to use lol

Pivot = turn around.
I think you're confusing normal pivots with perfect pivots. You say pivots take a lot of skill. Perfect pivots do, but normal pivots don't. I think you may be the only one here who doesn't realize there are two different kinds of pivots.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

tbf I didn't realize there were two different kinds of pivots either.....wait a minute! Are you saying I was right this whole time?!? On a side note whenever a moderator says something is a certain way they're always right. They're moderators for a reason. They should've come in here sooner honestly.

 

[RonNewcomb]

The reason you don't see pivot f-smash much is for the same reason you don't see smash attacks of any kind at high level: they're super punishable on whiff & block.

Even pivot f-tilts you'd normally only see much coming from some swordies: Pit, Marth, Link. Shulk & Cloud don't use it as much because they keep sliding in the direction of the run, and Metaknight & Toon Link have very short swords close to the ground so it's hard to anti-air with it.

Occasionally I'll see a randy pivot f-smash from Roy players. It's still way unsafe but darn near guaranteed to kill if it lands. Oh, and maybe Metaknight since his f-smash is about as safe as they come.

I can see pivot f-smash being useful for Megaman since you brought it up. I don't know what pivot f-tilt means in the context of Megaman though. Is there a "pivot lemon"?

 

[KillerqueenxTusk]

Megaman's neutral, neutral air and f-tilt are all lemons, so yes. It's especially useful for him because he can move and jump while shooting them

The smash works best when you need that little bit of extra spacing, or for punishing specific things. Like I said, if they already used both of their jumps, you can use it for punishing on landings. It is also punishable, of course, so you need to know when to do it

I've stood by the ledge while they tried to roll up and followed the DI of their roll to turn around and smash them right back off the side too

 

[Masonomace]

I will never do this with the character I play, being . The only reason I would, is if I do a cross-up run to get behind said person shielding or whatever, & running pivot Fsmash in 疾, because that can be somehow safe or at least safer than any other way to Fsmash with the character.

The move is too punishable on-hit or on-whiff, unless you charge the baby up & hit their shield with 斬 active.

EDIT: I forgot about friction being a factor. So yeah if the character's friction is garbage, I'll consider using Fsmash more out of a cross-up running pivot in 疾 or 斬 on slippery characters. Otherwise, them running towards me & holding shield also warrants charged Fsmash on-block with said arts using said movement.

 

[KillerqueenxTusk]

It can be useful in situations where you need a little bit more speed than short dashing can provide. Does 's defense form move faster running than jumping? If so, it could always help there. I think it's still important to learn these little things though, because even if they come in handy only one time, they still came in handy.

 

[A Scrub]

Pivot smashes.

Harder to do with A-sticking, so probably less common of a sight.

They also can be punished on a wiff if you spam them too much. Ok for a mixup if your opponent is being too aggressive, but don't use it too much or you'll eat a hard punish.

EDIT:

You're poll doesn't have an option for "knew it and use it."