So that Ness matchup ...holy christ

[abit_rusty]

I don't consider myself amazing at this game. I know I've got plenty to work on, but I have the experience from past smash games to know a straight up character matchup struggle when I see one.

I never have been so baffled in my smash4 conquests since I fought a VERY good Ness. I played him until he decided to quit so that I could learn everything about the matchup. I was close, but I never won, and it always felt like an uphill battle. Everything Ness has in his repertoire seems to hard counter falcon. Here is what I observed:
- His PK-side-b is horizontal and neutralizes the bread and butter dash grab/dash attack game. You get caught in it just once and that's an instant grab > dthrow > followup or punish air-dodge. I feel like PK-fire also neglects knockback via percent damage so it's another option for him to score an easy throw kill at high percents where everyone is all fidgety and you're doing your best to exploit an opening.
- I couldn't for the life of me find any of his aerials easily punishable especially when he DI's backwards even after I shield them.
- His up+b edgeguard is especially effective against falcon's one-dimensional recovery. You can air dodge it coming from above, but then it brings you below stage and vulnerable to a ledge get up read. If you dodge it and land onto the stage, he either redirects it in a loop to hit you, or hits himself and knocks you off again.
- Recover from above and you're bound to eat a nair or uair, and you simply have nothing you can do but air dodge, upon which he can throw out another nair.
- He can easily force you to come to him, but none of your aerials are safe enough because Ness is so short that nair or uair are much more difficult to land.
- He is floaty enough that after the initial grab to uair chains you do, it's nowhere near as effective to attempt combos (and by now your uair is stale since it's really the best option you have to rack up damage)

Maybe it is a patience matchup. But as patient as you can be, he still wins that game since he can force you to approach.

Any advice/thoughts on this matchup?

As an aside, I honestly wish I could get more experience outside of for glory mode. I feel like stages with platforms can help falcon's game immensely, against Ness in particular.

 

[ConeZ]

I think the comment on stages is nice, as FD/ Omega stages are not REALLY that balanced when all is said and done.
Honestly, if you are having trouble, I'd say work on shielding more. PK Fire doesn't proc on shield in this game, so if you shield it, it dies, and you can act accordingly. Granted, he might grab you in this scenario, but it IS better than taking the free damage, and you shield grab, or use other OoS options (most of which I have not yet explored).

Though I do disagree with one thing. I think Uairs aren't that hard to hit on Ness from my experience so far, but I guess only time will tell.

 

[victra♥]

Dash grab to close the distance.

Rolls are really good in this game don't be scared to use them when you know they won't or they can't punish them.

You can poke with cross up and pivot ftilts.

Don't let ness get back on the ground. Uair beats everything.

Edgeguard ness by jumping out with a bair

 

[abit_rusty]

Thanks. I haven't been able to put in more practice lately having not faced any Ness players nearly as troublesome as that one.

 

[Weeman]

I get you man, same thing happened with me today, i fought like 20 pretty good lagless marches against a really good Ness. And pretty much everything he does neutralizes Falcon.
Literally the best strategy that i found and the only one that gave me a victory was to do absolutely nothing. I didn't event try to approach him and just played the waiting game until he decided to leave the ledge and come form me, and it was boring and frustrating as hell.
Seriously that Nair of his has insane priority so it's really hard to approach with SH Nairs or Uairs, and PK fire leaves your dashes useless unless you're relatively close and his floatiness makes comboing him hard; Not to mention that trying to edgeguard him is pretty much suicide since all of his aerials beat yours. I wish i could offer you good advice, bit i'm just as baffled as you mate.
I did learn ONE useful technique, pretty much do what he does with your nairs, that is, bait them, just throw nairs and DI backwards or even empty shorthops, that will force them to try to intercept you as well with aerials and get landing lag, even if minimal, wich you can use to your advantage thanks to Falcon's amazing speed and dash grab range.

 

[victra♥]

You can beat pk fire by dash -> shield and punish his lag.

You may not be able to combo him but you can definitely juggle him. One thing I've started to notice is that a lot of players will begin to drift offstage to recover to the edge rather than trying to land on the stage and getting hit over and over in the process.

I would be really weary of approaching with moves like side/down b or using high risk moves like fsmash etc. Once Ness gets you with a grab at ~120% it's going to be a guaranteed kill, even less if his back is to the ledge.

 

[Pazzo.]

As a Ness main, I'd say try to punish the lag on our PK Fire. Don't engage for long, as a well placed N-Air gives us a great foothold. Oh, and stay out of close range. B-Throw is a killer, and D-Throw into F-Air is almost guaranteed from 0%-70%.

 

[victra♥]

yeah ness's throws are so god like. guaranteed follow ups off of dthrow and guaranteed kills of bthrow.

 

[abit_rusty]

"Stay out of close range"

Got it--oh wait falcon has no mid-range/long-range game to speak of.

 

[BigLord]

Take to the skies then! Uair strings all day long. Surprise dairs are your friends, too.

 

[rahsosprout]

the timing is strict but ness's pk fire is definitely punishable with a dash grab. it has much shorter range than you think.

 

[EpixAura]

Incorporate short hop spaced aerials and empty jumps into your game more. You either want to be right on top off him or right outside the PK Fire range. In the neutral game, I just short hop around constantly, either in place or back and forth. Just spending more time in the air makes it harder for hit his PK Fire, and with Falcon's fast falling speed he won't be able to really punish it. Always be facing away from him so you can Bair him away if he attempts to approach.
If Ness still attempts to use PK Fire, you can try to predict them and jump towards him as it happens, going over it and being in the perfect position to punish. Once Ness realizes what's happening, he'll probably switch things up, using his disjointed Fair to try and outspace you. Continue short hopping back and forth, sometimes out of a dash, sometimes standing (think of it like a Melee dash dance. It's not quite as effective, but there are fewer options to deal with it in this game). The game will basically turn into a battle of patience, but since he should still be reluctant to use PK Fire, things will be a lot more manageable.

On a side note, learning to tech Ness's PKT2 is useful, since getting hit by it halves the distance Ness travels, therefore making it an effective edgeguarding tool. It's fairly easy once you learn the timing, but getting the timing down in the first place can be incredibly hard.
In regards to him using PKT to edgeguard, I'm actually not sure what to do. Does Uair outprioritize it? If so, conserving you jump and using Uair to beat it should help a lot.