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So let's talk about 3.6 Lucas...

Kipcom

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Oh wait, he's been pretty much unchanged! :chuckle:

So basically we got an uptilt buff and they removed Perfect DJC PK Freeze, which I'm actually a little upset about.
But they also called it a glitch in the patchnotes, so obviously it was something that was never meant to be. :(

Anyways, what do you guys think? Have the nerfs to other characters indirectly made Lucas even more of a threat? Are you just glad that they didn't go trigger happy with nerfs? Upset something didn't get buffed?
 

D e l t a

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Perfect PKF was one of the only things going for him in neutral. It was only safe at the range of max aerial distance to grounded max distance, which made it predictable and easily avoided. Up close still has punishable frames that most people don't understand. It's safe to shield against Lucas now that his shield pressure isn't broken like 3.0 and buffered rolls / OoS options are viable to counter him.
Guess we'll have to see how this affects his meta.

==

Fair still needs 3.0 range (can keep same priority)
Grab should have the extra 2 active frames back or decrease some end lag to mirror other tether grabs
I wish they would take my idea for OU charge and make it similar to Samus / DK charges with a cancel frame. I guess we'll have to settle for it being like Ivy
Decrease land lag on Ztether by 3 frames & add 1 more use in air
Lower some of the hit lag on magnet

==

Luckily other chars have been slightly nerfed and easier to deal with. Especially Link's boomerang being delayed a few frames among other things.
 

Kipcom

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tbh, I wanted literally everything that you said to return for Lucas in 3.6.

We got none of that, but at the same time, I'm just glad they didn't feel like he needed many nerfs. Gets kind of annoying playing a characters who gets nerfed in virtually every patch he's been in.

I guess we can keep the dream alive for 3.7/4.0.
 

D e l t a

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Well he was broken in early versions of 2. His Fair/Bair took 2 hits to break a full shield and had little end lag. There were some interesting changes to his charges over the course of updates like having only 3 uses. His magnet nerfs should've only been to shield stun, not hitlag.

I only want proper balance for him and with the above mentioned additions, Lucas would be close to perfect balance IMO
 

Scraket

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I'm actually fine with Lucas being kept virtually the same. Not being able to Perfect Pkf kinda sucks but Lucas's neutral is still pretty freaking good without it lmao. Uptilt change doesnt mean much to me seeing as how I never use uptilt.
 

Jamwa

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the decreased aerial stall on b feels like it decreases the endlag a bit, but im not sure.. anyone can confirm if its better in this patch for SH combos/how safe it is on shield?

zair needs the endlag imo. 15 frames -> 12 frames is a bit dumb considering normal landing lag from airdodges is 10 anyway, so there's be basically no reason to not zair. hard to punish as it is imo, being able to put out a hitbox after airdodge is very silly (read: very good) and the characters that do have it should have equal to or greater than 15 frames imo.

perfect pkf was fun, thats the only thing i'll miss about it. it makes sense to remove it so i cant really complain other than it was fun

magnet with 1 frame hitlag sooo much fun. it was a bit too good frame data wise overall, but i think they could've nerfed the magnet without changing the hitlag.

the buff to utilt feels like compensation for the KB increase on uair in 3.5, and it is welcome.

what i want is zap jumping (im half joking) and the re-introduction of bair's sweetspot because i swear it doesnt exist i barely ever hit it lmao.
seriously though dtilt makes me cry why cant they either make it like brawls (jab dtilt trip fsmash hype) or give it some actual KB so it cant just be CCd for 500% or give it some better frames like a poor-mans rapid jab or something.
PKT1 needs better KB lower SDI valyou because its too easy to SDI into the tail and just get hit nowhere and punish lucas. it was a unique edge-guard tool in brawl, and now it's mostly useless. not that lucas needs the extra tool, but it would be mad. increasing the KB could change what happens when you are hit into the head though; if it sent you up too high it'd be too good as a recovery tool.
i think SDI values on nair could be changed too, its very easy to asdi down and shield.
 
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D e l t a

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the decreased aerial stall on b feels like it decreases the endlag a bit, but im not sure.. anyone can confirm if its better in this patch for SH combos/how safe it is on shield?

the buff to utilt feels like compensation for the KB increase on uair in 3.5, and it is welcome.
I'll test this when I get 3.6 downloaded & working. I had a few issues with it last night. I used OU burst/charge a lot in 3.5 so I should be able to recognize the changes.

Buffs on a move I already thought was really good? Awesome. Utilt was my favorite against midweights that never stayed in hitstun from Uair below 50%.

zair needs the endlag imo. 15 frames -> 12 frames is a bit dumb considering normal landing lag from airdodges is 10 anyway, so there's be basically no reason to not zair. hard to punish as it is imo, being able to put out a hitbox after airdodge is very silly (read: very good) and the characters that do have it should have equal to or greater than 15 frames imo.
Yeah I know... :/ the hitbox is actually easy to punish if you CC it at literally any % or get hit under 30% or something like that.

perfect pkf was fun, thats the only thing i'll miss about it. it makes sense to remove it so i cant really complain other than it was fun
It wasn't just fun, it was a zoning tool. Read above how I say it was only safe when you were at the max aerial distance to the max grounded distance (now deemed a 'bug') #salt At the least, they should give him the 1 frame AC window back that he had in 3.0.....

magnet with 1 frame hitlag sooo much fun. it was a bit too good frame data wise overall, but i think they could've nerfed the magnet without changing the hitlag.
I've had so many ideas about nerfing magnet that didn't result in new / super skewed timings. Such as reducing shield damage and adding extra angles. In Melee, the top players have to anticipate a Falco shine with a 1 frame hitbox and are expected to SDI it to not get easily combo'd. Same should go for PM with everybody crying about something they can't deal with that was released less than a few months ago.

what i want is zap jumping (im half joking) and the re-introduction of bair's sweetspot because i swear it doesnt exist i barely ever hit it lmao.
Magnet pulling got hit super hard. I'm sill pissed about that. Zap jumping was silly and prob won't ever see its way to PM bc of DJC properties

seriously though dtilt makes me cry why cant they either make it like brawls (jab dtilt trip fsmash hype) or give it some actual KB so it cant just be CCd for 500% or give it some better frames like a poor-mans rapid jab or something.
It's already got good KB at the tip of the hitbox. Read my guide for approaches. I believe I mention Nair -> Dtilt. It can almost never be CCd against most characters and if they do, use a 2nd Dtilt right after the first to get the strong KB hit. I've grown to like new Dtilt and think it's a reasonable, fair move.

PKT1 needs better KB because its too easy to SDI into the tail and just get hit nowhere and punish lucas. it was a unique edge-guard tool in brawl, and now it's mostly useless. not that lucas needs the extra tool, but it would be mad. increasing the KB could change what happens when you are hit into the head though; if it sent you up too high it'd be too good as a recovery tool.
No. You're thinking too much over an issue that isn't even present. His initial hitbox of PKT1 is good and knocks people away when going to ledge guard him. Unlike Ness, it doesn't go away from making contact with the head. Goes thru shields & players tacking on anywhere from 10-30 damage. Useful when they are recovering low - use the tail hit to knock them down just slightly without hitting them up. After Uair chains & u can't hit them with a finisher, use UpB. I've gotten a few kills off the top with UpB, all in tournament.

i think SDI values on nair could be changed too, its very easy to asdi down and shield.
Then start pressuring their shield or push them back with Dtilts right after. I can still pull off Nair -> grab at low-mid %'s despite 3.0 -> 3.5 making the hits normalized. Nair leads in to so much more than people give credit for. It starts up Fair chains to carry people across the stage horizontally, the non-knockback hit leads into Dair/magnet/another Nair/grab/Dtilt.
 

Jamwa

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Unlike Ness, it doesn't go away from making contact with the head.
im not ********
everything u said in response is full of assumptions regarding what i said, and you basically just wrote up however many words to tell me stuff i already know. thanks dude
ill address the points later after my dota game, but jesus u really thought i didnt know how PKT1 worked? wow
 

D e l t a

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im not ********
everything u said in response is full of assumptions regarding what i said, and you basically just wrote up however many words to tell me stuff i already know. thanks dude
ill address the points later after my dota game, but jesus u really thought i didnt know how PKT1 worked? wow
I'm providing my insight into why the 'issues' you listed are justified. Everything I wrote was to hopefully give you some clarity in regards to my previous post. I don't know what you do/don't know, so please don't give me an attitude when I'm only trying to be helpful.

As for the note on PKT1, I'm simply comparing Lucas to our Earthbound brother as a standing ground for my point I was making. I'm not trying to insinuate that you lack knowledge on an assumed topic.

When I write up this stuff, I'm not only acknowledging your post and replying, but also giving information that somebody not familiar with the character / all his moves can browse the Lucas boards and easily see.
 

Jamwa

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zzz
i didnt ask for your big knowledge dump, and a lot of it is just general **** that doesn't apply to the contention of my post

i said that pkt1 was too easy to SDI into the tail to STOP the heads knockback, and you respond
His initial hitbox of PKT1 is good and knocks people away
and then you go off about how nair combos and fair combos when i was talking about how easy it is to ASDI down and shield. like what, why even quote me?
its like you're not actually reading what im saying, and thats why this is frustrating. i made a post on a forum, and some dude just said a bunch of irrelevant stuff in reply to my post. just post it somewhere else if your bowels are aching that bad
 

zFrost

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lucas doesn't really need these things, he's fine, i wish he still had perfect pkf tho, and wish it wasn't cc able to like 150%.... but other than that he's fine
 

ForgottenLabRat

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I think he needs a little more time at the end of his UpB where he can reverse ledge grab, and be able to JC mag while still holding the B button to make him a little easier to play.
 

ForgottenLabRat

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tbh, I wanted literally everything that you said to return for Lucas in 3.6.

We got none of that, but at the same time, I'm just glad they didn't feel like he needed many nerfs. Gets kind of annoying playing a characters who gets nerfed in virtually every patch he's been in.

I guess we can keep the dream alive for 3.7/4.0.
Have you seen Lucario? After he was terrible in 3.0 they are nerfing him more and more each update, by the time 4.0 comes around he will be a pile of mush.
 

D e l t a

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Have you seen Lucario? After he was terrible in 3.0 they are nerfing him more and more each update, by the time 4.0 comes around he will be a pile of mush.
Slightly off-topic (although there isn't much to talk about 3.6 Lucas lol)

Basically Lucario had some silly mechanics (not being able to grab him out of certain moves, invincible approach with aura charge). I agree that he was stripped of these mechanics with no compensation or buffer to binder the blow. It's also insult to injury that ASC has increased frames (yet ANOTHER thing PM has made slower....). Basically, Lucario is still the same character with a similar play style and less jank/gimmicks. He still lacks a solid neutral in terms of pokes / safe or long ranged attacks while having a tremendous punish game & street fighter-esque combos.
 
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ForgottenLabRat

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Slightly off-topic (although there isn't much to talk about 3.6 Lucas lol)

Basically Lucario had some silly mechanics (not being able to grab him out of certain moves, invincible approach with aura charge). I agree that he was stripped of these mechanics with no compensation or buffer to binder the blow. It's also insult to injury that ASC has increased frames (yet ANOTHER thing PM has made slower....). Basically, Lucario is still the same character with a similar play style and less jank/gimmicks. He still lacks a solid neutral in terms of pokes / safe or long ranged attacks while having a tremendous punish game & street fighter-esque combos.
Yeah the changes were small to my boy Lucas so that's nice.

I think I am still a little disappointed that one of my favorite characters has been hit with the nerf hammer harshly. I don't know how many times I have said, "This will be the update that will buff Lucario to where he is a decent character," just to see a huge change list of all nerfs. The one thing I am super salty about.
 

D e l t a

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On the bright side, Fox has been nerfed super hard :kappa:
 

D e l t a

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Naw bruh.. He was defo nerfed

People just don't like him cuz they get their *** kicked by him :chuckle:
I like Fox playing as or against him. What I'm saying is that his shine got better IMO. His recovery got the justified end lag it deserved. Not saying he didn't get nerfed at all. Compared to everybody else in the cast thru every update, Fox barely got touched.
 

Tomaster

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I like Fox playing as or against him. What I'm saying is that his shine got better IMO. His recovery got the justified end lag it deserved. Not saying he didn't get nerfed at all. Compared to everybody else in the cast thru every update, Fox barely got touched.
I have to disagree on the shine, only small benefit to the shine change is that it's a little easier to aerial shine into bair. Other than that shine spike got a big nerf, grounded shine lost invincibility which is HUGE. I'd say he was changed more than most of the cast. Still i like the changes and fox is still beast.. But u lucases should have an easier time against him with the changes.
 
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D e l t a

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Invincibility has been removed a LONG time ago LOL.

Fox still has Nair, lasers, uthrow -> Uair, and Upsmash among many other great traits that haven't been touched. Fox is still fox and recovery nerfs aren't going to change that.
 

Tomaster

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Invincibility has been removed a LONG time ago LOL.

Fox still has Nair, lasers, uthrow -> Uair, and Upsmash among many other great traits that haven't been touched. Fox is still fox and recovery nerfs aren't going to change that.
Lol wow, I must be losing it, I thought it was in this update, sorry about that.
Anyway, I still think the loss of one of fox's most powerful techniques (shine spike) outdoes the small combo addition which rarely applies and is still hard to use. Fox is still fox I agree, but the signature shine spike is pretty much gone.
 

D e l t a

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If players like m2k that are good with fox keep playing him in 3.6, they're going to see essentially 0 difference in results. maybe placing slightly higher / lower due to new character specific techs they haven't seen before, but overall, the nerfs will barely alter their gameplay & skill. I doubt that their entire game plan was going for shine spikes
 
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Tomaster

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If players like m2k that are good with fox keep playing him in 3.6, they're going to see essentially 0 difference in results. maybe placing slightly higher / lower due to new character specific techs they haven't seen before, but overall, the nerfs will barely alter their gameplay & skill. I doubt that their entire game plan was going for shine spikes
Actually the shine spike was a very powerful tool, it could end stocks really early and fox players used it pretty often to gain a big advantage in a match. Anyway, this is the lucas forum so im gonna stop talking about fox...
 

HillustratedJ36

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Anyways, what do you guys think? Have the nerfs to other characters indirectly made Lucas even more of a threat? Are you just glad that they didn't go trigger happy with nerfs? Upset something didn't get buffed?
Not really...but with his OHKO Smash Taunt...I was wondering if the PMDT could make players use his regular Down taunt to end the paralysis earlier, as I can find the effects to take a while...
 

D e l t a

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I'm kinda sad it takes forever to use. It will probably never see the light of day from casuals to competitive players alike, save for the end of a game for 1 second or vs a recovering Samus on Dreamland.

Maybe shorten time by 2-3 seconds and make the hitbox smaller / weaker? Something so long as a character like Ike can't punish with a full OHKO of his own
 

Mokujin98

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just a average lucas passing by does any one have any tips on using him more efficiently?
 

D e l t a

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just a average lucas passing by does any one have any tips on using him more efficiently?
I've written on about half the threads in these boards about playing him better. I suggest you start with my guide, browse the Lucas general discussion page (start about 3-5 pages back from the latest post), or look through the threads and pick out ones that are titled "I need help with Lucas, any tips? etc." There's a handful of threads already asking the questions you may have that myself and others have previously answered.
 

IcarusAlpha

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I've written on about half the threads in these boards about playing him better. I suggest you start with my guide, browse the Lucas general discussion page (start about 3-5 pages back from the latest post), or look through the threads and pick out ones that are titled "I need help with Lucas, any tips? etc." There's a handful of threads already asking the questions you may have that myself and others have previously answered.
Thanks! I'll check that out
 

Eisen

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Honestly, I haven't been playing this game very much mainly because Lucas doesn't feel right anymore and they took too long to fix Bowser. Maybe once Smash 4 dies down a little I'll get back into it, but eh. Lucas has some good stuff I'm sure, but he feels really jank unless you have marth-like spacing and generally unfun. His projectile is ass and his pressure is crap. I haven't actually put time into him since 3.6, and barely any since 3.5 so I don't know his nuances in this build, but I can say that overviewing his general design doesn't make me happy. The boy has approach issues, which is kinda bad for a character who was supposed to be good at pressure but also kinda isn't at the same time. I can understand if they didn't want it to be as good as Falco's approach/pressure game, for example, cause Falco is kinda dumb and diversity is one of this game's strong points, but good god PK Freeze takes way too long to come out, gets neutralized by too many moves, doesn't stun long enough for Lucas to directly follow up in any way unless you have lots of practice with him, and is beaten by a lot of dumb tools in PM (I'm looking at you, CCing). I'd be okay with that if, once he got in, he could do some work and reliably start up a combo/string/tech chase/etc, but I don't feel like he's strong enough in that area to negate where other characters excel.

Trying to play Lucas just makes me feel like I have to outplay my opponent in every single aspect of the game now, whereas other characters have exploitable strong points. Don't get me wrong, 3.02 Lucas was dumb and I wanted nerfs to that design out the ass, but 3.5 just put him in a direction that has like, zero merit to me and I hate it.

I still think he needs to be a mix of pressure, combos, and a bit of tech chases with weaknesses in recovery, comboability, ease of approach, his moves' SDI-ability, and range/technicality/need to be precise to be effective--and make his rush down game not prominent, but make him actually have one. Right now, his offensive game gives way too much leniency to the defender. That's literally the opposite of what an offensive character in an offensive game is supposed to do.

Magnet's hitstun is fine at the moment, but shield stun could be a couple frames better than what it is now.

If PK Freeze is going to be one of the worst projectiles in the game, it needs one or more of a few changes:

- range buff
- startup/cooldown buff
- shield stun buff (probably the best option, because it punishes opponents for shielding without thinking about Lucas' options on it)
- change whatever makes it so goddamn easy to CC it
- hitstun buff

I also played with a personal build I created that changed Lucas' back throw that I felt could strengthen him in the right areas while making sure he wasn't too strong overall. Essentially, his back throw was no longer a kill move, but sent at a weak back and down-ish trajectory. What this did was a few things:

- In the middle-ish area of the stage, it gave the opponent an option to tech. It was such that Lucas couldn't follow up insanely easily, but if the opponent did something dumb like tech roll > shield, Lucas could read that and potentially, through mindgames, get in with some pressure. It was basically a "get out of my face, get over there, and I'm coming to kick your ass" kind of throw. At higher %s and proper spacing, it threw opponents onto low platforms. This forced a tech, which, again, is something Lucas can capitalize on. However this time, he can also approach from below with moves like OU Usmash if the opponent mistimes their getup/roll/tech. Make note, though, that it also had significant cooldown, so it was by no means a combo-friendly throw.

- Near ledges (and with back facing the edge of course), it would indeed throw at a low angle, but was still recoverable by Bowser, for example, up to high %s because of its very weak knockback algorithms. This throw also required Lucas to be in a defensive position, which made sure it wasn't overcentralizing. His grab is fairly slow anyway, and Lucas in this design was meant to be offensive. However, I thought about what would happen if I reversed the functions of his forward throw and this back throw-- Make the forward throw as a compliment to his pressure and tech chase (But then, would he be too strong at that?) with his back throw as just a mixup/neutral-reset kinda thing. Both have merits and design applications.

- Finally, on platforms, it behaved similarly to how it does near ledges. When facing backward, it had enough cooldown to where no follow up was guaranteed and smart players could avoid the gimp with a read/reaction, but it was fast enough that it put them in an unfavorable position. It could also throw players onto the main stage platform if Lucas faces the blastzones when throwing.

The last thing I feel like could use some change is his fair. In 3.6 it's so bad for what it's supposed to be good at, and stupidly easy to perform jank follow ups with the weak hit because of its priority over the strong hit. I'd switch the priorities or just make the strong hit slightly bigger and the weak hit slightly smaller.

Overall, I feel like just a few changes could make him both balanced and strong/fun in the proper areas. Right now, he requires so much work that literally all my other characters were better than my Lucas when I played a few friendlies at a recent tournament. The things I suggested would give him some strong points without making him overcentralized and strong in every way like he was in 3.0.

@ Kipcom Kipcom @ D e l t a D e l t a any thoughts?
 
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D e l t a

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^this

I'll try to give a better explanation at a later time on points that you stated, since I'm on my phone late in the AM and I don't want to seem to pretentious with this response. I'll clean it up More bc I'm sure reading thru this later will appear like tons of rambling on and on

==

Honestly, Anther has been my main motivation and proving point when I say this:

Characters in PM do not restrict you, only your personal ability and skill level.

Now yes, Bowser, Peach, and others may lack options and aren't seen as amazing, but people still pull out wins with these characters. They mainly lose in certain MUs, but a number of people have overcome those weaknesses and pulled out incredible wins.
Pikachu isn't considered top tier by any means, yet he consistently beats MI's best and has sat at #1 on our PR for quite a while now. He's done extremely well in absolutely terrible MUs for Pika and has only gotten better. His neutral is fantastic and inspires me to do the same.

==

I personally think Lucas should be looked at like a mix of Fox, Falco, and Pikachu. Low hitstun on projectile, but still leads to combos and has decent damage and hitstun somewhere inbetween Falco lasers and thunder bolt. His Fair approach is like a Fox Nair. Dair is somewhat like Fox & Falco's in that it can't be CC'd, is multi-hit, and leads to combos, but can be ASDI'd down and tech'd.

==

Most of your points end with something around the statement "which require practice / are only useful when you're good."

To touch on PKF quickly before I fall asleep writing this, here's my run down.

I use less PKF and I have been for a few months now. I rely less on the projectile, stay grounded more leading to better stage control and I can choose from options more (dash dance, magnets, WD back, grab, Ftilt/Fsmash/Utilt counter approaches, DJC aerials / fade back Fairs, etc). It's less muscle memory I rely on, which also means I auto-pilot less and focus more on neutral. Yes, I will get outplayed and feel like I suck without PKF. However, I've been focusing more on my opponent's approached and their gameplay, rather than attempting to overwhelm with an average projectile and high pressure.

Speaking of pressure, magnet -> follow up is still safe on shield when spaced. If anything, Fair should get buffs bc sourspot is terrible on shield and the sweetspot is +0. I have learned to chase rolls and punish spot dodge / jump OoS better than ever before now that I'm not focused on breaking their shield.

Lucas' dash dance is also super intimidating and his speed & range can catch rolls and other defensive options. PKF is great to use on roll away and forced them to act defensive again, leading to more pressure from Lucas.

~~

My thoughts to change PKF:

Give the pre3.6 range back. Taking away the "bugged" grounded distance was dumb as ****
Add auto cancel back maybe?
Reduce startup slightly
If done, decrease damage by 1 to compensate, adjust hitstun / KBG accordingly
Idk why they removed the grounded distance. That's about the biggest thing that sucks. It's a fine, balanced move IMO
 

D e l t a

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tl;dr Lucas is fine overall. His toolkit is among one of the best in the game. He has offensive and defensive tools that are only hindered by small range but made up for with a useful projectile. He's got pressure, excellent recovery (not busted but better than most), amazing combos/punish game, and kill throws / multiple kill setups, especially from throw.

If you want to win with Lucas, practice and get good.
 

Kipcom

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uh I think Lucas is top 10 in the game still. idk if that counts as top tier or if only the top 5 would, but you get my point.
So I can't say I agree with you, Eisen.

Are there things I would buff on Lucas? Yeah, but nothing that would make such a huge and obvious difference in his gameplay.

- Bring 3.02 Fair range back. I didn't see the point in the range nerf before and I still don't. It's not like it was a huge disjoint anyway. If they have to make the sweetspot a bit weaker, then so be it. I don't think I'd mind as long as I got the extra range.

- I have a lot of different potential ideas for bair.
- Reduce some of the startup frames, but keep the endlag it has now.
- Reduce 2-4 frames of endlag
- Make the sourspot a bit stronger (Not 3.0 strong), and the spike a bit weaker.

- Bring back the PK Freeze "bug." Yes, if I want a grounded PKF length, I can just use a grounded PKF, but that also removes the option of movement and mobility that the Perfect PKF allowed for with DJC and b-reversing. I wouldn't even care about an auto/land cancel with this as long as I could fire PKF from a safer distance.

- I'd do something about that damn dash grab (and other tether grabs in general). A 79 frame animation that only has 8 active hitboxes (that are on the earlier half of the move rather than later half, at that...) is absolutely ridiculous and there's absolutely no reason or justification for this. It's easily one of the worst grabs in the game, and has no purpose whatsoever other than "Oops, I just messed up my JC grab. Oh, I'm dead now lol"

That's pretty much all I would change. Going any further would probably make Lucas a ridiculous character again. I thought I wanted less startup on magnet for a while, until I discovered that would prevent him from being able to b-reverse and wavebounce with it. I don't think he needs all the crazy SDI modifiers from 3.0 and earlier. I think out of all the projectiles in the game, PK Freeze is probably among the most balanced. It's not too good, and it's not necessarily a bad projectile either. There's clear startup and endlag, it's not safe to throw out in front of shields, it won't kill, but it can lead to potential high damage or death if the player knows what he's doing. It's also linear, so that you don't have to go out of your way to guess where the PKF will go or come from, unlike certain other projectiles. Most importantly, it's not something that you can just over rely on in neutral, because it doesn't go that far and it's less intimidating than certain other projectiles.


I don't mind back throw or up throw, because they're clear DI mixups for the kill, and Up-throw clearly doesn't kill at ridiculously low percents anymore. Lucas' grab is also extremely risky now that they've changed its startup (I think) and completely nerfed the hitboxes from 3.0 to make more sense. JC and pivot grabs are tolerable (except when the snake clearly just goes through people...). Dash grab pretty much has no use. In all honesty, I'd probably advocate for a change to all bad tether grabs and give them something different or something faster.


Lucas is in a pretty damn good spot right now. His pressure is still there, it's just more interactive than what it was in 3.0, and there's nothing wrong with that. His neutral game is better than a lot of the cast. Not only that, but he still has, what I think, to be one of the easier combo games in PM. Most of his attacks can convert into most other attack in his toolkit. You know how many other players would kill for their character to have that kind of potential? Most characters have a hard time comboing certain weights/fallspeeds more than others. Lucas suffers from this a lot less than some characters. At the worst, he has trouble comboing the lightest and floatiest of characters who also have good combo/string breaker tools ala Luigi.

Trust me when I say that the character's really good and that you just haven't pushed him far enough. Maybe not as good as Neon once thought he was (#4 on the tier list in 3.5), but still really damn good.

He's a great character with rather obvious weaknesses, but shouldn't that be how every character in PM works?

Good offense, good pressure, pretty good neutral, pretty good (but not overbearing or polarizing) projectile, good combo game.

Bad at dealing with pressure, bad at dealing with certain other projectiles, relatively predictable recovery, bad grab, bad against certain characters that can camp him or beat him in the neutral.

So yeah, keep all of that in mind and just put more work into the character until you can see what I'm getting at. He's definitely got more potential than you think. I think that Lucas could win a PM national, but I don't think there's any Lucas player out there who's capable of it right now. Not Neon, not Hyperflame, not Pink Fresh, etc. I'm not saying there aren't good Lucas players, as that would be a blatant lie, but my standards have gotten pretty damn high this past year. Either way, I see the potential in the character and I know that a lot of us have more potential then we're putting out right now.

...



And now I'm going to go do something productive while contemplating why I made such a huge post when I was originally only going to post the first three sentences at the beginning and then move on with life.


pls read it all so I don't feel like I just wasted a huge amount of time.
 
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D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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Took the words right out of my mouth, Kipcom lol.

The only thing in that list I would love to see return is magnet pulling. The current version feels terrible. Maybe not so good as 3.0, but a blend between 3.0 and 3.6 Lucas would be all I'd ever want in the character.

If Lucas ever got some balance between 3.0 and 3.5, I would never ask for a buff/nerf for Lucas again. He's one of those ALMOST there characters.
 

trancex

Smash Cadet
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If Lucas were to get a normal (non-tether) grab, how drastically would he improve?

I could see magnetgrabs being broken as hell, for one.
 

D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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Magnet grab would only be broken in 3.0 due to magnet being +7 iirc (into a perfect grab means the opponent can't spot dodge or roll away). 3.5/6 is only +4 so the opponent could escape magnet grab, similar to the space animals shine grab.

I honestly don't know how drastic it would change Lucas. I put this into regards of ZSS where she isn't completely affected as her character archetype (weak to CC, primarily relies on juggles and tech chasing), is still the same. TBH, he would still have chain grabs, but many combos into grab I have found would be way less safe and stuff on shield that could usually be shield grabbed is no longer.

I'm fine with the tether grab, just make the end lag less absurd for all of Lucas' standing/dash/pivot grabs.
 
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