So how fairs the Sheik matchup?

[Venks]

Hello everyone! I'm a Little Mac main who is considering making DK my secondary character. I really enjoy characters that hit hard, but the players in my community are getting really good with Sheik and so I haven't won a tournament in a while.

I decided to give DK a try given the fact he was recently buffed and Sheik technically nerfed. It was working out for a bit, but the more passive my opponent gets the more impossible it feels.

Do you guys think DK can win tournaments against top level Sheiks? How do you approach the matchup?
All advice is appreciated.

Example match:

 

[Big O]

Hello everyone! I'm a Little Mac main who is considering making DK my secondary character. I really enjoy characters that hit hard, but the players in my community are getting really good with Sheik and so I haven't won a tournament in a while.

I decided to give DK a try given the fact he was recently buffed and Sheik technically nerfed. It was working out for a bit, but the more passive my opponent gets the more impossible it feels.

Do you guys think DK can win tournaments against top level Sheiks? How do you approach the matchup?
All advice is appreciated.

Example match:

You played well in the beginning, but once he started playing more carefully you started playing more predictably. He really capitalized on your ledge play to rack up tons of damage and momentum.

On the ledge if they like to wait and react to what you do, you have to pick options that are hard to react to. The hardest options to react to are jumping and attacking. If he stands too far away to get hit, stick with ledge jumping. By varying when you jump and what you do during the jump are how you throw them off. When you got hit out of the Ledge Jump you could have DJ/air dodged or used Up B to counterattack. Ledge Jumps only have 12 frames of commitment and is very difficult to react to passively. DK's Ledge Attack is deceptively small (especially vertically) so you have to save it for when they are close and just waiting or commit to something punishable. If they are close enough, you can hit them with a ledge drop DJ AC Uair instead of the Ledge Attack. Ledge Drop DJ punch can be good too every now and then.

Random tips:
- When you do Cargo Utoss, jump first and it will generally be easier to followup on. It KO's sooner that way too.
- When you grab them at the edge of the stage at high %, go for Cargo Dtoss stage spikes or jump offstage and Cargo Dtoss towards the blastzone (you did Cargo Btoss randomly on at 2:30)
- Punch has less SA in the air, so you can't really armor through and counter hits from below like you did at 1:22
- Ban Duck Hunt stage (pretty much always)
- If you block an Fsmash just Dsmash OoS
- Spacing with SH Bair is good at deterring their SH approaches and dash grabs (mix it up with empty feints too)
- Approaching with Down B is surprisingly good, especially if they dodge or block a lot
- Defending yourself with Jab, backwards Utilt, and grounded Up B helps you deal with rushdown
- Pivot grab/Ftilt/Fsmash are also good on defense

The patch has only made this MU easier, so take advantage of jump Cargo Utoss Uair KO combos and Dash Attacks lower cooldown to really squeeze out extra damage and close out those stocks. You seem to Fsmash more than usual, so you will probably also really like Fsmash's improved size and disjoint properties. I don't think the MU is any worse than 45:55 for DK since his grab KO combo is too legit. Might be even now honestly, but I won't jump the gun and say that it is at this point.

 

[Venks]

You played well in the beginning, but once he started playing more carefully you started playing more predictably. He really capitalized on your ledge play to rack up tons of damage and momentum.

On the ledge if they like to wait and react to what you do, you have to pick options that are hard to react to. The hardest options to react to are jumping and attacking. If he stands too far away to get hit, stick with ledge jumping. By varying when you jump and what you do during the jump are how you throw them off. When you got hit out of the Ledge Jump you could have DJ/air dodged or used Up B to counterattack. Ledge Jumps only have 12 frames of commitment and is very difficult to react to passively. DK's Ledge Attack is deceptively small (especially vertically) so you have to save it for when they are close and just waiting or commit to something punishable. If they are close enough, you can hit them with a ledge drop DJ AC Uair instead of the Ledge Attack. Ledge Drop DJ punch can be good too every now and then.

Random tips:
- When you do Cargo Utoss, jump first and it will generally be easier to followup on. It KO's sooner that way too.
- When you grab them at the edge of the stage at high %, go for Cargo Dtoss stage spikes or jump offstage and Cargo Dtoss towards the blastzone (you did Cargo Btoss randomly on at 2:30)
- Punch has less SA in the air, so you can't really armor through and counter hits from below like you did at 1:22
- Ban Duck Hunt stage (pretty much always)
- If you block an Fsmash just Dsmash OoS
- Spacing with SH Bair is good at deterring their SH approaches and dash grabs (mix it up with empty feints too)
- Approaching with Down B is surprisingly good, especially if they dodge or block a lot
- Defending yourself with Jab, backwards Utilt, and grounded Up B helps you deal with rushdown
- Pivot grab/Ftilt/Fsmash are also good on defense

The patch has only made this MU easier, so take advantage of jump Cargo Utoss Uair KO combos and Dash Attacks lower cooldown to really squeeze out extra damage and close out those stocks. You seem to Fsmash more than usual, so you will probably also really like Fsmash's improved size and disjoint properties. I don't think the MU is any worse than 45:55 for DK since his grab KO combo is too legit. Might be even now honestly, but I won't jump the gun and say that it is at this point.

Thank you so much for this in-depth advice! I can see there's a lot of stuff I wasn't aware of what so ever.

As a Little Mac main I have very little experience choosing jump or ledge drop when hanging from ledge. That's definitely something I need to pick up. I'm so used to standing at ledge because of how safe it is, but my opponent had the timing down on punishing that really well even when I delayed.

So many good tips! I'll be practicing a lot of this stuff in preparation of the next tournament. I definitely didn't know Giant Punch has less super armor in the air. That explains a lot.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

fairs

Tell me that was intentional.

 

[Axel311]

I have to disagree with the comments above, Sheik dominates this matchup on the top skill levels to the point you want to pick a different character than DK. I listened to DKwill talk about the sheik matchup on his twitch several weeks ago. He said he's been forced to ditto top shieks instead of going non-custom DK because the matchup is that bad. That was before the most recent patch, but I haven't seen much difference in sheik from the nerf.

A great shiek can camp, gimp and combo DK to death. Fair chains to bouncing fish for days. Good luck trying to land once a great sheik gets you in the air. Better not get grabbed or faired. Oh and because of needles you're forced to approach.

On the highest skill levels, shiek bodies DK in my opinion. It's something like 65:35 in favor of Shiek. But Shiek's skill cap is insanely high, so if we're talking local scenes and you aren't playing any amazing sheiks you'll probably be fine. The lower the skill level of the two players the better DK does in the matchup.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

if everything about DK and sheik remained the same as they are now, the matchup is in sheiks favor 55:45. I was at smashcon and had some friendly matches vs Tohfoo, mr e, and mr r, ranking them in order of skill from less to most.

I have the most technically saavy DK out there even if my fundamentals still leave something to be desired. This was my first tournament and I was honestly at my best here (don't ask about the tournament itself: I sd'd in both winners and losers....talking about all the mm and friendlies I had). I vs Tohfoo my first day there and we had about 20 matches, 13-14 of which I won. Then I faced mr e. He's known for his Marth but he has a fantastic sheik as well. We had about 16matches, of which I won about 11-12 of them. At one point I had won 5-6 games in a row and he was flabbergasted that he was losing to a DK like that. Then there's mr r. Faced him for about 6-7 games, and I lost them all, although I was ahead a few matches and close to winning and just couldn't finish it. I actually attribute my losses to him as simply not knowing the matchup and especially to the stuff he can do with sheik. He really liked abusing my poor ledge getup options and actually this is primarily why I lost at least half of the games. But I know I can make it close to 50-50 once I learned the matchup, which is why I say 55-45. It could even be 60-40 if I'm underrating sheiks ability to consistently string and combo even the most experienced DK, but that remains to be seen (btw don't forget about DK's cargo upthrow killing sheik early now). Sheik is not dks worst matchup by a long shot. His worst, and I learned this at smashcon, is greninja. There's a guy named kero from Kentucky and his greninja competes with amsas as the best in the world...he's definitely #1 in the U.S. That matchup is simply impossible...so get this...I fought this guy at least 50 different times, and no matter how close I got I simply couldn't win even a single game (almost all the games were on battlefield though). I know when it's me, and when it's the matchup. This matchup was the first time that I had to admit that DK has absolutely zero chance of winning except on stages with a low ceiling. Offstage greninja doesn't like playing there (the best ones anyway) so any kills DK normally has there are nonexistent in this matchup. The problem is that no matter how much damage you rack up, on stages with normal to high ceilings it's impossible to CATCH! greninja in order to kill him if he's constantly looking to evade you and just waiting for his opportunity. I can't tell you how many times I got him to kill % on his last stock but just couldn't catch the mofo.

 

[Venks]

if everything about DK and sheik remained the same as they are now, the matchup is in sheiks favor 55:45. I was at smashcon and had some friendly matches vs Tohfoo, mr e, and mr r, ranking them in order of skill from less to most.

I have the most technically saavy DK out there even if my fundamentals still leave something to be desired. This was my first tournament and I was honestly at my best here (don't ask about the tournament itself: I sd'd in both winners and losers....talking about all the mm and friendlies I had). I vs Tohfoo my first day there and we had about 20 matches, 13-14 of which I won. Then I faced mr e. He's known for his Marth but he has a fantastic sheik as well. We had about 16matches, of which I won about 11-12 of them. At one point I had won 5-6 games in a row and he was flabbergasted that he was losing to a DK like that. Then there's mr r. Faced him for about 6-7 games, and I lost them all, although I was ahead a few matches and close to winning and just couldn't finish it. I actually attribute my losses to him as simply not knowing the matchup and especially to the stuff he can do with sheik. He really liked abusing my poor ledge getup options and actually this is primarily why I lost at least half of the games. But I know I can make it close to 50-50 once I learned the matchup, which is why I say 55-45. It could even be 60-40 if I'm underrating sheiks ability to consistently string and combo even the most experienced DK, but that remains to be seen (btw don't forget about DK's cargo upthrow killing sheik early now). Sheik is not dks worst matchup by a long shot. His worst, and I learned this at smashcon, is greninja. There's a guy named kero from Kentucky and his greninja competes with amsas as the best in the world...he's definitely #1 in the U.S. That matchup is simply impossible...so get this...I fought this guy at least 50 different times, and no matter how close I got I simply couldn't win even a single game (almost all the games were on battlefield though). I know when it's me, and when it's the matchup. This matchup was the first time that I had to admit that DK has absolutely zero chance of winning except on stages with a low ceiling. Offstage greninja doesn't like playing there (the best ones anyway) so any kills DK normally has there are nonexistent in this matchup. The problem is that no matter how much damage you rack up, on stages with normal to high ceilings it's impossible to CATCH! greninja in order to kill him if he's constantly looking to evade you and just waiting for his opportunity. I can't tell you how many times I got him to kill % on his last stock but just couldn't catch the mofo.

I gotta take your words with a grain of salt if this truly was your first tournament. The big thing I learned from Smashcon was that Dkwill beat Mr. R while using DK.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Understandable, but facts are facts when it comes to my w/l ratio vs the 3 players I mentioned, and note that I have the match as more even than everyone else does, and anyway most ppl give their opinions based on having faced ppl at local tournaments and such, I'm speaking on experience from a national vs 3 of some of the best sheiks around. Will beat mr r because he sd'd, btw.