So... Doesn't Ken have the FIRE Hadoken? Seriously??? [READ THE FIRST POST BEFORE YOU REPLY]

[Young Link.]

I’m forming my definition of what an Echo is by making a pattern that allows Doc to not be an Echo while Ken is. You made your own conclusion about what an Echo is, but considering the fact that you believe Ken is more unique than Doc (And presumably think he should be an Echo/Is an Echo), your definition of Echo is wrong because it includes a character who is not an Echo.

If you look at the patterns you always will find some pattern that can be used to justify something you want.

For example: in Smash 4 ironically Dr. Mario is categorized as "Echo fighter" alongside Dark Pit and Lucina.

By the way who can play 99 minutes? ​

But strangely enough in Smash Ultimate he isn't, simply because Sakurai didn't want to (and he can do whatever he wants). The "patterns" can be changed all the time (and for the reasons the creator wants).

What I mean is, the limit that separates an Echo from a No Echo is so so tiny that this term "Echo Fighter" in my opinion really doesn't matter.
The excuses you can use for a character to be an Echo or no Echo are whatever the creator wants, he can modify it, adapt it, literally do whatever he wants, therefore, an addition of a mechanic (the Ken's V-Trigger) is not an excuse to call Ken an Echo or No Echo, because Sakurai can modify the pattern.

Or simply don't call Ken Echo (if this is the "problem"), he could be perfectly an Original Fighter something like Villager/Isabelle. "Problem" solved.

 

[Orlando BCN]

But strangely enough in Smash Ultimate he isn't, simply because Sakurai didn't want to (and he can do whatever he wants). The "patterns" can be changed all the time (and for the reasons the creator wants).

strangely

What's so strange about the fact that Mario and Doc have different down specials? This thread should be closed as we have strayed too far off topic and answered your question already.

 

[Young Link.]

What's so strange about the fact that Mario and Doc have different down specials? This thread should be closed as we have strayed too far off topic and answered your question already.

So?? Even Echoes can have different Specials (Chrom). Your reply doesn't make any sense, and it ignores all the others arguments I've made.

This thread should be closed as we have strayed too far off topic and answered your question already.

The question have been answered, but the talk can continue as long as the participants keep the talk healthy and be nice. If you don't want you can leave, no one is keeping you here.
And this thread is not strayed too far off topic, the talk about the Echos was to try to justify the Ken's V-Trigger or not, but the main subject is in discussion right now.

 

[Orlando BCN]

So?? Even Echos can have different down specials (Chrom). Your reply doesn't make any sense, and ignores all the others argument I made.

At least Chrom fundamentally has the same moves as Roy. Mario and Dr. Mario's down-specials have completely different utilities.

 

[Young Link.]

At least Chrom fundamentally has the same moves as Roy. Mario and Dr. Mario's down-specials have completely different utilities.

Except that Dr. Mario's down special is fundamentally the same move as Luigi's down special (who was the same move as old Mario), it's not a new move. It's exactly like Chrom who borrowed Ike's up special.

 

[Marmotbro]

Holy crap all this semantics and arguing for something so simple. For the dude who doesn't get it:

is more defensive. They gave him a better defensive tool (Hadoken).
is more offensive. They gave him a better offensive tool (Shoryuken).

From a game play perspective it makes sense.

Even if you are right about having a fiery Hadoken (which you aren't btw), it still makes sense in the context of Smash, and the iteration of and they are basing their design on.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Chrom's moves all have the same frame data, hitboxes (minus FTilt), angles, damage and knockback formula, and Chrom himself has the same hurtbox, air speed, ground speed, fall speed, fast fall speed, and weight.

Doc's moves all have different frame data, hitboxes, launch angles, damage, knockback, and he has a different hurtbox, air speed, ground speed, fall speed, and fast fall speed. The ONLY thing Doc has that is 1:1 with Mario is weight.

Also, using the CSS doesn't work because ECHOES WEREN'T A THING IN SMASH 4. They were grouped together because they were all originally added as alts before they were made separate, and as such, for the sake of I'm guessing not having to recode the CSS for unlocks, they were all put together. Also, even back in Smash 4, people were arguing that Doc was infintely more unique than the "True Clones" as we called them at the time.

Also, if the move is taken from a character but the rest of the moveset is from another character, that one move is still fair game unless you want to argue Doc's Dair was actually just cloned from Ganondorf

 

[Young Link.]

Holy crap all this semantics and arguing for something so simple. For the dude who doesn't get it:

is more defensive. They gave him a better defensive tool (Hadoken).
is more offensive. They gave him a better offensive tool (Shoryuken).

From a game play perspective it makes sense.

Even if you are right about having a fiery Hadoken (which you aren't btw), it still makes sense in the context of Smash, and the iteration of and they are basing their design on.

I think you are the one who doesn't get it.
I'm not saying the way they made Ken and Ryu doesn't make sense, of course it makes sense and I like Ken the way he is now.
I'm just saying that in my opinion he would be even better if he had the Fire Hadoken from Street Fighter V, and that it makes sense to him have the Fire Hadoken (by the arguments I've made before), THAT'S ALL!

But it seems you guys don't like to accept different opinions. I already answered all the arguments that everyone here have made and I've explain why also makes sense to Ken have the Fire Hadoken (from SFV) in Smash, If you think I'm wrong about it explain with arguments, if you don't have arguments you can't say I'm wrong.

Chrom's moves all have the same frame data, hitboxes (minus FTilt), angles, damage and knockback formula, and Chrom himself has the same hurtbox, air speed, ground speed, fall speed, fast fall speed, and weight.

Wrong. Chrom's damage is always the same, but Roy's damage is stronger if he hits the opponent with the base of his sword, the tip of Roy's sword is much more weaker, while Chrom is much more consistent, this makes the style between them be very different to play. Also, Roy's knockback is stronger than Chrom's if Roy hits the opponent with the base of his sword.

Also, using the CSS doesn't work because ECHOES WEREN'T A THING IN SMASH 4. They were grouped together because they were all originally added as alts before they were made separate, and as such, for the sake of I'm guessing not having to recode the CSS for unlocks, they were all put together. Also, even back in Smash 4, people were arguing that Doc was infintely more unique than the "True Clones" as we called them at the time.

That's why I've put quotes in the term "Echo Fighter", what I mean is that they put Dr. Mario in the same category of Lucina and Dark Pit as clones in Smash 4, but in Smash Ultimate they considered Dr. Mario a entirely new character, my point is, they changed the pattern, the creator can change the pattern, the way the game categorizes the characters, etc, therefore the term "Echo Fighter" isn't a problem to Ken having the V-Trigger from Street Fighter V.

And even if you still think it is, as I said before:

Or simply don't call Ken Echo (if this is the "problem"), he could be perfectly an Original Fighter something like Villager/Isabelle. "Problem" solved.

Not putting this mechanic (the V-Trigger and consequently the Fire Hadoken) in Smash was an option of Sakurai, not an impossibility. Maybe making this mechanic would demand much time, but we don't know if this is true, I think it was indeed just an option of Sakurai.

He's not wrong, but I'm not wrong either.

Also, if the move is taken from a character but the rest of the moveset is from another character, that one move is still fair game unless you want to argue Doc's Dair was actually just cloned from Ganondorf

Yes, I agree. Just like Chrom's up special, it's a fair move, but still it's not a new move. Even though the Chrom's up special has a new movement, new animation and has even a new up attack with his sword (which Ike doesn't have) before he jumps in the air, which makes the Chrom's up special much more unique than the Dr. Mario's down special. So, a character having a move taken from a second or even a third character isn't a big deal.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

When I say "Damage formula" I'm referring to the difference between them. All of their base damage is the same, but Roy's Sweet Spot multiplies the damage by a certain amount, and his Sour Spot does the opposite. It's not like Doc where the damage isn't always a set formula. I literally play Roy, I know how his sword works.

Anyway, my point was that Doc was NEVER considered not to be his own character. Ken, Lucina, Chrom, Dark Pit, Daisy, Richter, and Dark Samus are all close enough to the base fighters to be Echoes, Doc is not. Decloning Ken further would make him no longer an Echo, which would mess with Sakurai's plans for how he designed the CSS (Post-dlc the stacked will be a perfect rectangle, Ken as a semiclone would mess that up), give him a unique move from a game that wasn't even out yet, would take away development time from a game that already doesn't appear to have gotten to be finished on time (Not that that's a bad thing, but the devs have had to do enough work in 2 years as it is), and would represent something that doesn't fall in line with the character's history outside of one game (Focus Attack was one move, not a mechanic that applies to the entire moveset like VT would be)

Also, Doc's Down B functions very differently from Luigi's. Luigi's cannot rise and has intangibility on startup, neither of which apply to Doc.

 

[Young Link.]

When I say "Damage formula" I'm referring to the difference between them. All of their base damage is the same, but Roy's Sweet Spot multiplies the damage by a certain amount, and his Sour Spot does the opposite. It's not like Doc where the damage isn't always a set formula. I literally play Roy, I know how his sword works.

Anyway, my point was that Doc was NEVER considered not to be his own character. Ken, Lucina, Chrom, Dark Pit, Daisy, Richter, and Dark Samus are all close enough to the base fighters to be Echoes, Doc is not. Decloning Ken further would make him no longer an Echo, which would mess with Sakurai's plans for how he designed the CSS (Post-dlc the stacked will be a perfect rectangle, Ken as a semiclone would mess that up), give him a unique move from a game that wasn't even out yet, would take away development time from a game that already doesn't appear to have gotten to be finished on time (Not that that's a bad thing, but the devs have had to do enough work in 2 years as it is), and would represent something that doesn't fall in line with the character's history outside of one game (Focus Attack was one move, not a mechanic that applies to the entire moveset like VT would be)

Also, Doc's Down B functions very differently from Luigi's. Luigi's cannot rise and has intangibility on startup, neither of which apply to Doc.

Still Chrom and Roy styles are quite different.

This argument about "mess with Sakurai's plans for how he designed the CSS (Post-dlc the stacked will be a perfect rectangle, Ken as a semiclone would mess that up)" was very poor. It will not be everyone who will buy the DLC, there are people who will buy only one, or two, etc... besides there are people who even doesn't make the Mii Fighters (I'm one of these people), so it's impossible to Sakurai set a perfect rectangle, with DLC or not.

Yes, the game was already out, as I said before, Street Fighter V was released in February 2016, the ROSTER was DECIDED in December 2015, but we don't know when exactly they STARTED to make the game, they have 2 years to put this mechanic, they didn't put it because they didn't want to. It was an option. Especially knowing that Sakurai is a big fan of fighting game, I'm sure he play Street Fighter V, or at least took a look at it.

You speak as Street Fighter V wasn't part of the Street Fighter series history... doesn't matter if the Ken's Fire Hadoken and the V-Trigger is from one game, that canonically is part of the Street Fighter history, therefore this DOES fall in line with the character's history.

 

[Marmotbro]

I'm just saying that in my opinion he would be even better if he had the Fire Hadoken from Street Fighter V, and that it makes sense to him have the Fire Hadoken (by the arguments I've made before), THAT'S ALL!

And in my opinion Link would be cooler if he had a lightsaber. Why didn't soccerguy do this? I should make a thread about it.

 

[Young Link.]

And in my opinion Link would be cooler if he had a lightsaber. Why didn't soccerguy do this? I should make a thread about it.

Ok, come back when you have some arguments, if all you have are jokes so... cool. (y)

Besides, I've made this thread because I was unsure if Ken was able to shoot a Shakunetsu Hadoken, not just to talk about my opinion. And so people started getting annoyed with my valid opinion about the Fire Hadoken, and started all this discussion, because people don't accept different opinions.

 

[Marmotbro]

Ok, come back when you have arguments

Ok. The Guardian Sword he uses in BOTW looks like a lightsaber. It basically is one. It would be cool for him to have it. Wasn't a joke. I provided just about as much reasoning you did.

not just to talk about my opinion. And so people started getting annoyed with my valid opinion about the Fire Hadoken, and started all this discussion, because people don't accept different opinions.

You're opinion is perfectly valid and you are allowed to have it. But people are allowed to think it is stupid and call it out as such, and when your point gets debated on a forum and you fall back on "It's just my opinion", that's not a good look.

 

[Young Link.]

You're opinion is perfectly valid and you are allowed to have it. But people are allowed to think it is stupid and call it out as such, and when your point gets debated on a forum and you fall back on "It's just my opinion", that's not a good look.

People are allowed to think it is stupid, but if these people don't give CONSISTENT reasons to why they think that opinion is stupid, the only stupid opinion is from the ones who don't accept different opinions and are unable to say why the opinion is invalid.

and when your point gets debated on a forum and you fall back on "It's just my opinion", that's not a good look

Also, this is a lie. I debated with a LOT of valid arguments in this entire thread (unlike you), when I said it was "just my opinion" I also said WHY MY OPINIONS ARE VALID. All my arguments were well explained in detail.

When I got something wrong, like the Shakunetsu Hadoken, I admitted my mistake. But when someone says something that doesn't make sense, I don't care if it's 1 person or 50, I won't agree with that.

You are trying to justify your lack of arguments and failure to accept different valid opinions, but it is not working.

 

[Marmotbro]

People are allowed to think it is stupid, but if these people don't give CONSISTENT reasons to why they think that opinion is stupid, the only stupid opinion is from the ones who don't accept different opinions and are unable to say why the opinion is invalid.

People before me gave some pretty good reasons its dumb. And I have every right not to accept your opinion, that's just something you are gonna have to live with.

Also, this is a lie. I debated with a LOT of valid arguments in this entire thread (unlike you), when I said it was "just my opinion" I also said WHY MY OPINIONS ARE VALID. All my arguments were well explained in detail.

That's cool and all, it also doesn't really change anything.

You are trying to justify your lack of arguments and failure to accept different valid opinions, but it is not working.

Don't project.

 

[Young Link.]

Dude, all you do is use fallacies, you have no arguments.

I'll just ignore you from now. Bye.

The only one who really has good arguments here is Shieldlesscap .

 

[Marmotbro]

Dude, all you do is use fallacies, you have no arguments.

I don't argue. I just explain why I'm right.

 

[Young Link.]

"Welcome to the internet, where state your opinion is a declaration of war."

To everyone who is thinking in reply from now on, keep this in mind:
1- No one is obliged to accept different opinions, but those who try to understand the other are better human beings, so don't be a jerk who thinks your own opinion is the only one right (many times there are more than one "right"), so try to be open mind.

2- If you disagree with me that's ok, but be nice, be polite, and please use arguments, not fallacies and personal attacks.

3- If you are one more person who will be arrogant, hostile and won't use arguments, I will just ignore you.

4- I'm just a guy who wanted Ken to shoot the Fire Hadoken, this isn't the end of the world guys (and this even makes sense to his character), the Smash community has the fame of being hostile and rude, unfortunately I am seeing that this is indeed very true, try to change it, try to change your behavior, then this community will one day have a better fame.

5- You can't explain why you're right without using arguments. Saying you're right does not make you're right.

A great Ken's FIRE Hadoken to everyone!!! <3

 

[Marmotbro]

That's a lot of words to say nothing in particular.


Also Ken doesn't have V trigger in this game, so he could not use a fiery hadoken.

 

[Young Link.]

My argument is exactly that it would be perfectly possible to give him the V-Trigger though.

 

[Marmotbro]

My argument is exactly that it would be perfectly possible to give him the V-Trigger though.

Anything is possible. But it didn't happen.

 

[Young Link.]

Anything is possible. But it didn't happen.

Yes, I know that. But people here were saying that this was something impossible to happen and that this doesn't fall in line with the Ken's history, which it's not true, the Ken's Fire Hadoken fall in line with the character style and it's something that was perfectly possible to give him in Smash.

People didn't want to accept that (and they were trying to find excuses to explain why that was "impossible"), just because they didn't agree with me.
I was just trying to say that I wasn't wrong about this. That my opinion is valid.

 

[Marmotbro]

Yes, I know that. But people here were saying that this was something impossible to happen and that this doesn't fall in line with the Ken's history, which it's not true, the Ken's Fire Hadoken fall in line with the character style and it's something that was perfectly possible to give him in Smash.

People didn't want to accept that (and they were trying to find excuses to explain why that was "impossible"), just because they didn't agree with me.
I was just trying to say that I wasn't wrong about this. That my opinion is valid.

Ken in smash is based on his classic designs. V-trigger is only a thing in 5. That should be reason enough for you to understand why people won't accept your opinion. You are wrong about this. Your opinion is valid but uninformed. I do not know how I can be more clear.

 

[Young Link.]

Ken in smash is based on his classic designs. V-trigger is only a thing in 5. That should be reason enough for you to understand why people won't accept your opinion. You are wrong about this. Your opinion is valid but uninformed. I do not know how I can be more clear.

No, I'm not wrong.
Ken is based in his classic designs, but he has moves from other Street Fighters, like Street Fighter III and Street Fighter IV. Same as Ryu, he has moves from other games, therefore this IS NOT an excuse to don't give him moves from other Street Fighter games.

I'm right.

 

[Marmotbro]

No, I'm not wrong.
Ken is based in his classic designs, but he has moves from other Street Fighters, like Street Fighter III and Street Fighter IV. Same as Ryu, he has moves from other games, therefore this IS NOT an excuse to don't give him moves from other Street Fighter games.

I'm right.

Are you trying to tell me SF3 isn't a classic? That game is 21 years old. Even Street Fighter 4 has some merit, it is a decade old at this point. Arguably a classic. 5 is relatively new and they obviously didn't pull any inspiration from it. You are grasping at straws here and if you can't see that then I don't really know what to tell you.

 

[Young Link.]

Are you trying to tell me SF3 isn't a classic? That game is 21 years old. Even Street Fighter 4 has some merit, it is a decade old at this point. Arguably a classic. 5 is relatively new and they obviously didn't pull any inspiration from it. You are grasping at straws here and if you can't see that then I don't really know what to tell you.

Ken is based in his classic design from STREET FIGHTER II TURBO (even Sakurai have said that). Not classic in general. I'm not saying Street Fighter III isn't classic, but THIS Ken is from Street Fighter II Turbo. And yet, he has moves from Street Fighter III and even Street Fighter IV (which you can question if SFIV can already be considered a classic).

I think you are the one who's grasping at straws and trying to find an excuse, something to justify that is wrong to put some moves from Street Fighter V.

I'm not saying they were wrong in not putting moves from SFV, I'm just saying that this was an OPTION from Sakurai, not an impossibility at all.

 

[Marmotbro]

Ken is based in his classic design from STREET FIGHTER II TURBO (even Sakurai have said that). Not classic in general. I'm not saying Street Fighter III isn't classic, but THIS Ken is from Street Fighter II Turbo. And yet, he has moves from Street Fighter III and even Street Fighter IV (which you can question if SFIV can already be considered a classic).

I understand the general design is from 2 Turbo. But for the purposes of him having a better moveset the pulled from later games. I understand.

I'm not saying they were wrong in not put moves from SFV, I'm just saying that this was an OPTION from Sakurai, not a impossibility at all.

Of course it was an option. There were a lot of options that soccerguy didn't go with when he created this game. and using SF5 stuff is one of them. But he didn't. he obviously was going for a more classic feel and so that's what he did. Ken having a fire hadoken is not classic Ken. I do not understand why you cannot understand that. You may want a more modern Ken but that isn't what you got.

 

[meleebrawler]

Much like character speculation, arguing in the imaginary world of what could have been is a largely fruitless endeavour.

Yeah, they could have given Ken a fire hadouken, but they didn't. End of story, GG, better luck next game.

 

[Young Link.]

Of course it was an option. There were a lot of options that soccerguy didn't go with when he created this game. and using SF5 stuff is one of them. But he didn't. he obviously was going for a more classic feel and so that's what he did. Ken having a fire hadoken is not classic Ken. I do not understand why you cannot understand that. You may want a more modern Ken but that isn't what you got.

Of course I do understand that Ken having a Fire Hadoken is not classic, but Ken and Ryu having the Focus Attack ins't exactly a feeling of old/classic games either.

Much like character speculation, arguing in the imaginary world of what could have been is a largely fruitless endeavour.

Yeah, they could have given Ken a fire hadouken, but they didn't. End of story, GG, better luck next game.

Yes, this is a speculation of how I would like to have a Ken, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Not that I dislike the Ken we have now, on the contrary, I LOVE the current Ken we have in Smash.

 

[Marmotbro]

Of course I do understand that Ken having a Fire Hadoken is not classic, but Ken and Ryu having the Focus Attack ins't exactly a feeling of old/classic games either.

Once again, it could be argued SF4 is a classic game. And the focus attack is more of a nod to that game and style, and not a fundamental change of one of the fighter's 3 signature moves that didn't happen until way later and only under certain conditions.

 

[Young Link.]

Once again, it could be argued SF4 is a classic game. And the focus attack is more of a nod to that game and style, and not a fundamental change of one of the fighter's 3 signature moves that didn't happen until way later and only under certain conditions.

Once again, even if you or other people (somehow) consider SFIV a "classic", Ken's moveset was based in STREET FIGHTER II TURBO, not classics in general. This argument doesn't work.
And to me Street Fighter IV is not a classic, at all (maybe in another 10 years).

Call the Focus Attack "a nod to that game and style" or whatever, this doesn't change the fact that they gave Ryu and Ken a move that doesn't come from Street Fighter II Turbo.
Besides, the V-Trigger just set the Ken's moves in fire, it's not a fundamental change of those 3 signature moves, it's more like a buff, he still has the Hadoken, the Shoryuken (he already had it) and the Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku but in flame, and it is just for a short period of time.

 

[Marmotbro]

Once again, even if you or other people (somehow) consider SFIV a "classic", Ken's moveset was based in STREET FIGHTER II TURBO, not classics in general. This argument doesn't work.

Ok, how do you explain the focus attack then? Obviously the whole moveset was not based on SSF2T. And if you think it was, why did you want a fire hadoken for Ken in the first place? That logic doesn't fit.

And Street Fighter 4 is a classic, and it looks like Sakurai though it was important enough to base a move around a mechanic in it. That is my opinion. And I hear if you understand that then that makes you a better person somehow.

Besides, the V-Trigger just set the Ken's moves in fire, it's not a fundamental change of those 3 signature moves, it's more like a buff, he still has the Hadoken, the Shoryuken (he already had it) and the Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku but in flame, and it is just for a short period of time.

So his moves being on fire is not a fundamental change? I would argue it is. And even if it isn't, doesn't that mean you keep arguing over something that doesn't matter?

 

[Young Link.]

Ok, how do you explain the focus attack then? Obviously the whole moveset was not based on SSF2T. And if you think it was, why did you want a fire hadoken for Ken in the first place? That logic doesn't fit.

And Street Fighter 4 is a classic, and it looks like Sakurai though it was important enough to base a move around a mechanic in it. That is my opinion. And I hear if you understand that then that makes you a better person somehow.

Obviously the Focus Attack is from SFIV, my point when I've talked about that was to show that doesn't matter from which Street Fighter game a move comes from, if the move is classic or not, this can't be used as an excuse to exclude some move, since it was said that Ken's moveset is from "Street Fighter II Turbo", but he has moves from the other games, so any SF game can be included.

Sakurai didn't put the Ken's Fire Hadoken because he didn't want to, is that simple.
Not because of the arguments you guys are talking about.

So his moves being on fire is not a fundamental change? I would argue it is. And even if it isn't, doesn't that mean you keep arguing over something that doesn't matter?

If it doesn't matter, why are you so worried about it?

 

[Marmotbro]

Sakurai didn't put the Ken's Fire Hadoken because he didn't want, is that simple.
Not because of the arguments you guys are talking about.

We were giving you reasons WHY sakurai might have not put it in. Smashboards tends to be a reasonable and helpful bunch. Would you have preferred a bunch of people just saying you were wrong and the idea is dumb and then not having any reason why?

If it doesn't matter, why are you so worried about it?

Never said I was worried about it. If you think I am having this conversation because I care about that you are wrong.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Once again, even if you or other people (somehow) consider SFIV a "classic", Ken's moveset was based in STREET FIGHTER II TURBO, not classics in general. This argument doesn't work.
And to me Street Fighter IV is not a classic, at all (maybe in another 10 years).

Call the Focus Attack "a nod to that game and style" or whatever, this doesn't change the fact that they gave Ryu and Ken a move that doesn't come from Street Fighter II Turbo.
Besides, the V-Trigger just set the Ken's moves in fire, it's not a fundamental change of those 3 signature moves, it's more like a buff, he still has the Hadoken, the Shoryuken (he already had it) and the Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku but in flame, and it is just for a short period of time.

Ok, but adding a move that affects Ken's entire moveset (All of his kicks, all of his specials, some of his punches iirc) would
A. Represent a move that has never been associated with Ken (Shakunetsu Hadoken)
B. Represent multiple moves that don't exist (Ken's command kicks aren't in SFV and setting them on fire would be out of place)
C. Stick a gimmick onto a character that's literally designed to be a fundamentals character (It's like if you gave Ken limit)
D. Stick a mechanic on Ken that Ryu does not have, which would immediately be enough to make him not an Echo, and would make Ryu seem way less interesting by comparison

Giving him Focus was one move that still very much embodies the character, giving him VT would change up the entire moveset just to give Ken a move that he normally DOES NOT HAVE NOR NEED.

 

[Young Link.]

We were giving you reasons WHY sakurai might have not put it in. Smashboards tends to be a reasonable and helpful bunch. Would you have preferred a bunch of people just saying you were wrong and the idea is dumb and then not having any reason why?

Ok, but to me these reasons doesn't make sense because of the points I've said before.
To me the reason that makes more sense is that Sakurai didn't put V-Trigger by his option. And maybe because the V-Trigger would taken much time from him and his team, but we don't know that.

And yep, some people here acted like the way you've said in your last phrase. Some people here acted like the bad fame that the Smash community unfortunately has.

Ok, but adding a move that affects Ken's entire moveset (All of his kicks, all of his specials, some of his punches iirc) would
A. Represent a move that has never been associated with Ken (Shakunetsu Hadoken)
B. Represent multiple moves that don't exist (Ken's command kicks aren't in SFV and setting them on fire would be out of place)
C. Stick a gimmick onto a character that's literally designed to be a fundamentals character (It's like if you gave Ken limit)
D. Stick a mechanic on Ken that Ryu does not have, which would immediately be enough to make him not an Echo, and would make Ryu seem way less interesting by comparison

Giving him Focus was one move that still very much embodies the character, giving him VT would change up the entire moveset just to give Ken a move that he normally DOES NOT HAVE NOR NEED.

A. Since Street Fighter V the Fire Hadoken is associated with Ken.
B. So as the Focus Attack isn't in Street Fighter II, this by it self is already "out of place".
C. I disagree, it would let him be like the old Ken and the new Ken from SFV with buffs, that would make his gameplay even more dynamic.
D. I have to agree here, about that would make Ryu seem way less interesting by comparison. The fair solution is that Ryu would also have to have the V-Trigger. But we don't know if they would have time to do that.

Indeed normally he doesn't have this move, but Ken with the V-Trigger is even more interesting. And even if this changed his entire moveset, that yet embodies the character style because he has this technique in SFV.

 

[Marmotbro]

Ok, but to me these reasons doesn't make sense because of the points I've said before.

Your reasons boil down to: "I want this thing in smash because it was in the newest Street Fighter". I'm saying that is not the classic look they were going for. Like it or not 5 is a departure from the traditional street fighter feel, and thats not what they based the character off of.

Street Fighter 5 is 2 years old. So for 2 years Ken has had a fire hadoken. For 29 years before that, he did not. Why would they go for modern ken when you yourself said he is based on his older designs? You act like him not having this move is a glaring omission.

 

[Young Link.]

When I said Ken was based on his older designs, I mean that this was mainly for his appearance, but his moves don't necessarily reflect all his moves from Street Fighter II Turbo.

The thing is: what you, me or other person consider to be "classic".

To me, for something to be considered a classic, besides time, it has to be very iconic, something that people remember that marked a generation.
Hadoken, Shoryuken, Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku, all these 3 moves marked several generations until today.
Until today people speak about these 3 moves as classics from fighting games.

Who speaks about the Focus Attack? What references the cartoons, the movies, etc, make to Focus Attack?
Focus Attack is so generic that every character in Street Fighter IV have it, and yet I don't see anyone making a reference to that as something iconic. Maybe in the future the Focus Attack becomes something very iconic (?), but today it's not.
Even in Street Fighter V the Focus Attack was removed, and substituted by the V-Trigger.

 

[Marmotbro]

To me, for something to be considered a classic, besides time, it has to be very iconic, something that people remember that marked a generation.

Street Fighter 4 marked a boom in the modern fighting game genre. Really without it, fighting games would not be as big as they are. It really did expose fighting games to a wider audience. It is most definitely a classic.

Who speaks about the Focus Attack? What references the cartoons, the movies, etc, make to Focus Attack?
Focus Attack is so generic that every character in Street Fighter IV have it, and yet I don't see anyone making a reference to that as something iconic. Maybe in the future the Focus Attack becomes something very iconic (?), but today it's not.

The "Focus Attack" is a direct nod to SF4 art style in edition to being a move from the game. The inky aftereffects are definitely iconic, not the move itself.

Even in Street Fighter V the Focus Attack was removed, and substituted by the V-Trigger.

You act like that is a good thing, or even relevant to the argument at hand.

 

[Young Link.]

Street Fighter 4 marked a boom in the modern fighting game genre. Really without it, fighting games would not be as big as they are. It really did expose fighting games to a wider audience. It is most definitely a classic.

How does a game that marked a boom in the modern fighting game genre can be considered a classic?? If it is a "boom" from the modern games, he is modern, not a classic.

The "Focus Attack" is a direct nod to SF4 art style in edition to being a move from the game. The inky aftereffects are definitely iconic, not the move itself.

If the "inky aftereffects" were "definitely" iconic, this move wouldn't be gone in SFV.

You act like that is a good thing, or even relevant to the argument at hand.

It is relevant to the argument because if the Focus Attack was so iconic and relevant, they wouldn't had removed it on the new game. If they removed it, it is because this move IS NOT so iconic. Did they ever remove the Hadoken? the Shoryuken? the Tatsumaki Sepuu Kyaku?

Nintendo will NEVER remove the FALCON PUNCH from Captain Falcon's moveset, because this move is VERY iconic, it is the most iconic move originated from Smash Bros., this is an example of an iconic move, not the Focus Attack which it was discarded by Capcom itself.