So... Doesn't Ken have the FIRE Hadoken? Seriously??? [READ THE FIRST POST BEFORE YOU REPLY]

[Young Link.]

EDIT: "Welcome to the internet, where stating your opinion is a declaration of war."

1- No one is obliged to accept different opinions, but those who try to understand the other are better human beings, so don't be a jerk who thinks your own opinion is the only one right (many times there are more than one "right"), so try to be open mind.

2- If you disagree with me that's ok, but be nice, be polite, and please use arguments, not fallacies and personal attacks.

3- If you are one more person who will be arrogant, hostile and won't use arguments, I will just ignore you.

4- I'm just a guy who wanted Ken shoot the Fire Hadoken, this isn't the end of the world guys (and this even makes sense to his character), the Smash community has the fame of being hostile and rude, unfortunately I am seeing that this is indeed very true, try to change it, try to change your behavior, then this community will one day have a better fame.



Original comment:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I couldn't use the Shakunetsu Hadoken or the Fire Hadoken playing as Ken. Has anyone been able to do this?
We all know that the Ken's powers are his flames, but he doesn't have the Flame Hadoken?? Wtf...

Even Ryu has the Flame Hadoken, it doesn't make sense to me. Instead Ken has a boring kick...(?) Wtf²...
In Street Fighter II Ken has a "Fire Hadoken" and in Street Fighter V he has a REAL Fire Hadoken and much more powers with flames.

I'm a bit disappointed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. He does not have Shakunetsu. He is based off Super Turbo Ken. His moves are lifted from that game.

 

[Young Link.]

No. He does not have Shakunetsu. He is based off Super Turbo Ken. His moves are lifted from that game.

Oh that's a really shame. :/
It would be cool to see Ken summoning the Fire Hadoken as we've seen in other versions of Street Fighter II/Street Fighter V.
I think they did that to differentiate Ken from Ryu, but in my opinion this was a mistake.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Until you see Ken roundhouse is an intangible poke that lets him swat away people jumping at him. Even sword users.

Utility > Aesthetics.

 

[Young Link.]

Until you see Ken roundhouse is an intangible poke that lets him swat away people jumping at him. Even sword users.

Utility > Aesthetics.

The Shakunetsu Hadoken is not just "aesthetic", it's very useful against any opponent because it is more powerful than Hadoken and it has multi hits causing paralysis on his opponents allowing you to do combos more easily.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are not getting consistent combos with Shakunetsu Hadouken and even if you were it would not matter much.

Ken's damage output is already higher than Ryu's due to his unique command kick special. Quarter circle down+A.

Seems like you are just peeved that Ken can't throw fire. Which is fine. You have the right to feel how you want. But it is good Ken does not have it.

Right now Ken is shaping up to be a much better character than Ryu. If he had Shakunetsu than Ryu might as well not exist.

 

[Dingding123]

Fire Shoryuken tho

 

[link2702]

You are not getting consistent combos with Shakunetsu Hadouken and even if you were it would not matter much.

Ken's damage output is already higher than Ryu's due to his unique command kick special. Quarter circle down+A.

Seems like you are just peeved that Ken can't throw fire. Which is fine. You have the right to feel how you want. But it is good Ken does not have it.

Right now Ken is shaping up to be a much better character than Ryu. If he had Shakunetsu than Ryu might as well not exist.

I’m kinda peeved that ken seems so objectively better than ryu here...

Granted these exact changes make ken more fun to play for me, but it feels like ryu got the short end of the stick here.

 

[Swordmaster102]

I’m kinda peeved that ken seems so objectively better than ryu here...

Granted these exact changes make ken more fun to play for me, but it feels like ryu got the short end of the stick here.

Amen.

 

[Idon]

Eh, you never know. Ryu's shoryu kills earlier so he might get used just for that.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Ken has never been able to perform the Shakunetsu Hadoken. In SFV he could using his VT1 which set all of his moves on fire.

Plus, Ken's command kicks are much better for his actual playstyle, being more rushdown. Giving him Shakunetsu would be out of character and would be a nerf, because he'd lose a kill confirm in exchange for a zoning option he wouldn't even use.

 

[Young Link.]

Ken has never been able to perform the Shakunetsu Hadoken. In SFV he could using his VT1 which set all of his moves on fire.

Plus, Ken's command kicks are much better for his actual playstyle, being more rushdown. Giving him Shakunetsu would be out of character and would be a nerf, because he'd lose a kill confirm in exchange for a zoning option he wouldn't even use.

Excuse me?
https://youtu.be/X8aGH9ctcFM?t=137

The tittle says "glitch" but it's not a glitch, it's a easter egg that randomly appears, I played Street Fighter II a LOT and I clearly remember using the fire hadoken playing as Ken and Ryu, so yeah Ken has the Shakunetsu Hadoken.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Excuse me?
https://youtu.be/X8aGH9ctcFM?t=137

The tittle says "glitch" but it's not a glitch, it's a easter egg that randomly appears, I played Street Fighter II a LOT and I clearly remember using the fire hadoken playing as Ken and Ryu, so yeah Ken has the Shakunetsu Hadoken.

You mean the Easter egg that’s not actually different and it’s just a reskin of the normal Hadoken?

That doesn’t count as a Shakunetsu. It’s a normal Hadoken input that is just a reskin of a normal Hadoken. Is there any example of pre-SFV Ken doing a half circle forward to perform a Shakunetsu Hadoken?

 

[Young Link.]

You mean the Easter egg that’s not actually different and it’s just a reskin of the normal Hadoken?

That doesn’t count as a Shakunetsu. It’s a normal Hadoken input that is just a reskin of a normal Hadoken. Is there any example of pre-SFV Ken doing a half circle forward to perform a Shakunetsu Hadoken?

My point is, Ken has the Fire Hadoken, call as you want skin or not it's the Fire Hadoken. They could do something similar to Ken, that's the whole point of my thread. Shakunetsu Hadoken, Fire Hadoken, Flame Hadoken, I would be fine with either of them. And Ken fits in much better way with the Fire Hadoken than Ryu.

 

[Swordmaster102]

My point is, Ken has the Fire Hadoken, call as you want skin or not it's the Fire Hadoken. They could do something similar to Ken, that's the whole point of my thread. Shakunetsu Hadoken, Fire Hadoken, Flame Hadoken, I would be fine with either of them. And Ken fits in much better way with the Fire Hadoken than Ryu.

Idk dude. Ryu has had shakunetsu in his toolkit in sf for a VERY long time. It’s nothing new or out of character for him. The only sf that I can think of him not having it is in SFV, but ultimate’s version of Ryu is from older street fighters. And since I’m talking about them both being modeled after older streetfighters, ken only got a red hadoken in SFV, and it’s not even a shakunetsu technically. I see how some people who don’t know too much about sf might say “but he has a fire shoryu. He should have a fire hadoken as well,” but if they gave it to him, it would not matchup with the way he is in the games.

 

[Hypa-Link]

My point is, Ken has the Fire Hadoken, call as you want skin or not it's the Fire Hadoken. They could do something similar to Ken, that's the whole point of my thread. Shakunetsu Hadoken, Fire Hadoken, Flame Hadoken, I would be fine with either of them. And Ken fits in much better way with the Fire Hadoken than Ryu.

Um no, that's not a fire hadouken. Stop being a fanboy and stop complaining about something he's not even supposed to have. Ken has always had fire on his Shoryuken, while Ryu had faster and flame Hadoukens. Like Always. And the fact that you posted an easter egg/glitch, that isn't even fire(Doesn't set the opponent on fire like Ryu's, or hit them multiple times like Ryu's confirms that. It's literally just an orange regular Hadouken that clearly isn't canon or meant to be since it doesn't happen in any other game and Ken never had an actual fire hadouken in the history of street) and someone basically corrected you on this and you're still crying about this is kinda creepy.

 

[Luigifan18]

Um no, that's not a fire hadouken. Stop being a fanboy and stop complaining about something he's not even supposed to have. Ken has always had fire on his Shoryuken, while Ryu had faster and flame Hadoukens. Like Always. And the fact that you posted an easter egg/glitch, that isn't even fire(Doesn't set the opponent on fire like Ryu's, or hit them multiple times like Ryu's confirms that. It's literally just an orange regular Hadouken that clearly isn't canon or meant to be since it doesn't happen in any other game and Ken never had an actual fire hadouken in the history of street) and someone basically corrected you on this and you're still crying about this is kinda creepy.

If by "creepy", you meant "pathetic", then, yeah, sure.

 

[Young Link.]

It's literally just an orange regular Hadouken that clearly isn't canon or meant to be since it doesn't happen in any other game and Ken never had an actual fire hadouken in the history of street

I don't think so... Ken HAS Fire Hadoken in the history of Street Fighter.
Correcting you: https://youtu.be/sFzHdD7j8nM?t=217
And I know Ken from Smash Ultimate is based on Ken from Street Fighter II, I just wanted to correct you.

To you and everyone who YET don't get the point of my thread:

I ALREADY UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS KEN FROM STREET FIGHTER II DOESN'T HAVE FIRE ON HIS HADOKEN. OK?

BUT THE KEN'S POWERS IS FIRE (much more than Ryu's), TO ME ANY FIRE POWERS FITS MUCH BETTER IN KEN THAN IN RYU. I DON'T CARE IF IT IS SHAKUNETSU OR WHATEVER.
THIS IS MY OPINION, I ONLY PLAYED STREET FIGHTER II AS A KID AND TO ME THAT WAS FIRE, AND TO ME FITS MUCH BETTER IN KEN.

I just wanted to make it clear to people don't get me wrong.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Ok but where do you get “He’s the guy who uses fire attacks” out of “He has one move that has fire effects”

Like in SFV sure but there is not a single version of Ken who would realistically have a bunch of fire attacks. Ryu gets Fire Hadokens, Ken gets Fire Shoryukens. That’s how it’s always been.

 

[Young Link.]

Ok but where do you get “He’s the guy who uses fire attacks” out of “He has one move that has fire effects”

Like in SFV sure but there is not a single version of Ken who would realistically have a bunch of fire attacks. Ryu gets Fire Hadokens, Ken gets Fire Shoryukens. That’s how it’s always been.

Well, these are the reasons:

1- From the anime Street Fighter Victory he manipulates flames.
2- He wears red (the color of the flames hahaha)
3- From Street Fighter V (as you said), he has a LOT of fire powers, especially with his legs.

Anyways, I still think Ken should have a fire Hadoken in Smash Ultimate.

 

[Orlando BCN]

It's gonna be a long time before Sakurai implements SFV Ken in another Smash game. Only then will he be able to use fire Hadokens.

 

[onehundredhitz]

Ah man, I forgot ignorant the Smash community is to the Street Fighter series

 

[Young Link.]

Ah man, I forgot ignorant the Smash community is to the Street Fighter series

Yeah, I don't know Street Fighter series so well besides Street Fighter II indeed, and the Smash community has no obligation to know it.

But it seems some people here trying to teach me about Street Fighter (and being unnecessarily disrespectful and/or arrogant) don't know Street Fighter so well too (ironically).

My arguments are valid here:

1- Ken's powers are Fire, no one can deny this. That's why it is logical to Ken to use a Fire Hadoken, as it is indeed his power in Street Fighter V.

2-My point in this thread was primary the FIRE Hadoken, not necessarily the Shakunetsu Hadoken, and now I know the Shakunetsu Hadoken isn't a technique that Ken uses I'm not talking about the Shakunetsu anymore, but the Fire Hadoken IS a technique that Ken uses.

3-"But Fire Hadoken isn't from Street Fighter II and Ken from Smash Ultimate is from Street Fighter II TURBO!"

Calm down dude I know that, but so as Ryu is based mostly in Street Fighter II, but he has moves from Street Fighter III, and Street Fighter IV too! So as Ken, Ken has the Focus Attack from Street Fighter IV, therefore this argument about "Ken can not have a Fire Hadoken" does not proceed, because they could perfectly use his Fire Hadoken from Street Fighter V.

Therefore I don't get why people are so upset about my thread...

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Yeah, I don't know Street Fighter series so well besides Street Fighter II indeed, and the Smash community has no obligation to know it.

But it seems some people here trying to teach me about Street Fighter (and being unnecessarily disrespectful and/or arrogant) don't know Street Fighter so well too (ironically).

My arguments are valid here:

1- Ken's powers are Fire, no one can deny this. That's why it is logical to Ken to use a fire Hadoken, as it is indeed his power in Street Fighter V.

2-My point in this thread was primary the FIRE Hadoken, not necessarily the Shakunetsu Hadoken, and now I know the Shakunetsu Hadoken isn't a technique that Ken uses I'm not talking about the Shakunetsu anymore, but the Fire Hadoken IS a technique that Ken uses.

3-"But Fire Hadoken isn't from Street Fighter II and Ken from Smash Ultimate is from Street Fighter II TURBO!" Calm down dude I know that, but so as Ryu is based mostly in Street Fighter II, but he has moves from Street Fighter III, and Street Fighter IV too! So as Ken, Ken has the Focus Attack from Street Fighter IV, therefore this argument about "Ken can not have a Fire Hadoken" does not proceed, because they could perfectly use his Fire Hadoken from Street Fighter V.

Therefore I don't get why people are so upset about my thread...

You asked a question, we were explaining why he doesn't. Anyway:
1. Smash Community doesn't have an obligation to know about other fighting games, sure, but if you're going to talk about how accurate a character is to their games then you do need to educate yourself before making claims about what actually is canon.
2. Ken's powers were not fire until SFV (Notice how I said UNTIL SFV, not that even now he doesn't. Maybe he's associated with fire (mostly because of his outfit, which... really shouldn't define a character tbh), but he's only had one fire attack before SFV). He had Fire Shoryuken and that's it. Ryu had Shakunetsu Hadoken but no one is saying he has fire abilities. In SFV he got Fire stuff as his VT, but that's a special ability that doesn't reflect all of his normal abilities.
3. Fire Hadoken isn't a technique that exists. It's a pallet swap easter egg that appeared in one game and was then clearly replaced by the Shakunetsu, which was given only to Ryu. This is like trying to argue that Weird Mario is a canon ability that Mario has access to. Ken can set his Hadokens on fire in SFV because his VT sets EVERYTHING on fire, and no one is trying to argue for Ken's kicks all having fire. Having said that, hypothetically speaking, let's assume Ken had a "Fire Hadoken". What properties would it have? Would it be multihit, would it replace his roundhouse kicks, would it randomly appear and act identical to Hadoken?
4. Was, uh, was anyone arguing that this made a difference? The version of SF2 isn't what makes a difference here. They couldn't use his VT just for one move because then they'd have to apply it to his entire moveset, and then there's no way he'd still be an Echo.

Also, keep in mind the roster for this game was decided before SFV even came out, so there's no way Sakurai could decide he'd be an Echo and then retroactively add representation for a game that would definitely change his roster plans.

 

[Orlando BCN]

Yeah, I don't know Street Fighter series so well besides Street Fighter II indeed, and the Smash community has no obligation to know it.

But it seems some people here trying to teach me about Street Fighter (and being unnecessarily disrespectful and/or arrogant) don't know Street Fighter so well too (ironically).

My arguments are valid here:

1- Ken's powers are Fire, no one can deny this. That's why it is logical to Ken to use a fire Hadoken, as it is indeed his power in Street Fighter V.

2-My point in this thread was primary the FIRE Hadoken, not necessarily the Shakunetsu Hadoken, and now I know the Shakunetsu Hadoken isn't a technique that Ken uses I'm not talking about the Shakunetsu anymore, but the Fire Hadoken IS a technique that Ken uses.

3-"But Fire Hadoken isn't from Street Fighter II and Ken from Smash Ultimate is from Street Fighter II TURBO!"

Calm down dude I know that, but so as Ryu is based mostly in Street Fighter II, but he has moves from Street Fighter III, and Street Fighter IV too! So as Ken, Ken has the Focus Attack from Street Fighter IV, therefore this argument about "Ken can not have a Fire Hadoken" does not proceed, because they could perfectly use his Fire Hadoken from Street Fighter V.

Therefore I don't get why people are so upset about my thread...

Ken won’t have his flaming Hadokens because he won’t have his V-trigger. Period.

 

[Young Link.]

You asked a question, we were explaining why he doesn't. Anyway:
1. Smash Community doesn't have an obligation to know about other fighting games, sure, but if you're going to talk about how accurate a character is to their games then you do need to educate yourself before making claims about what actually is canon.
2. Ken's powers were not fire until SFV (Notice how I said UNTIL SFV, not that even now he doesn't. Maybe he's associated with fire (mostly because of his outfit, which... really shouldn't define a character tbh), but he's only had one fire attack before SFV). He had Fire Shoryuken and that's it. Ryu had Shakunetsu Hadoken but no one is saying he has fire abilities. In SFV he got Fire stuff as his VT, but that's a special ability that doesn't reflect all of his normal abilities.
3. Fire Hadoken isn't a technique that exists. It's a pallet swap easter egg that appeared in one game and was then clearly replaced by the Shakunetsu, which was given only to Ryu. This is like trying to argue that Weird Mario is a canon ability that Mario has access to. Ken can set his Hadokens on fire in SFV because his VT sets EVERYTHING on fire, and no one is trying to argue for Ken's kicks all having fire. Having said that, hypothetically speaking, let's assume Ken had a "Fire Hadoken". What properties would it have? Would it be multihit, would it replace his roundhouse kicks, would it randomly appear and act identical to Hadoken?
4. Was, uh, was anyone arguing that this made a difference? The version of SF2 isn't what makes a difference here. They couldn't use his VT just for one move because then they'd have to apply it to his entire moveset, and then there's no way he'd still be an Echo.

Also, keep in mind the roster for this game was decided before SFV even came out, so there's no way Sakurai could decide he'd be an Echo and then retroactively add representation for a game that would definitely change his roster plans.

1- Yeah, you guys were explain why he doesn't, but unlike you, some people were unnecessarily disrespectful and/or arrogant. The point of my thread wasn't necessarily to talk about how a character is accurate about their game, it was just about why Ken doesn't have a fire Hadoken... and yes, Ken DOES HAVE the fire Hadoken, so there was nothing wrong with my thread besides the Shakunetsu. And a mistake isn't a reason to people being disrespectful.

2-Normal attacks or VT/Special Attacks or whatever, it is FIRE, so Ken canonically does have fire. Therefore my arguments are valid.

3-The fire Hadoken could be the properties to burn his opponents in one single hit (more like Street Fighter effects), since the Ryu's Shakunetsu has multi hits. The way to summoning this technique is up to Sakurai.

4-They could apply to one move, some moves are different from their original game, the Focus Attack in Smash can change the direction, in the original game this isn't possible.

Also, keep in mind the roster for this game was decided before SFV even came out, so there's no way Sakurai could decide he'd be an Echo and then retroactively add representation for a game that would definitely change his roster plans.

Street Fighter V was released in February 2016, the roster was decided in the end of 2015, the difference is only 2 months, and they had 2 years to add some flames effects after SFV was already out, I think it was perfectly possible, it was just a choice of Sakurai.

 

[Young Link.]

Ken won’t have his flaming Hadokens because he won’t have his V-trigger. Period.

Ryu doesn't have a meter/gauge (to his Specials/"Final Smash") in Smash 4, yet he has two Final Smash by breaking the Smash Ball... changes can be made to suit/fits the game (in the case from Street Fighter to Smash Bros.).

 

[Orlando BCN]

Ryu doesn't have a meter/gauge (to his Specials/"Final Smash") in Smash 4, yet he has two Final Smash by breaking the Smash Ball... changes can be made to suit/fits the game (in the case from Street Fighter to Smash Bros.).

That’s because Ryu doesn’t need to use V-trigger to use super moves. Ken literally needs an Install in order to use flaming Hadokens, and Installs have no presence in Smash.

 

[Young Link.]

That’s because Ryu doesn’t need to use V-trigger to use super moves. Ken literally needs an Install in order to use flaming Hadokens, and Installs have no presence in Smash.

But he does need a Special gauge to use his Specials moves (Shinkuu Hadoken or Shin Shoryuken) in Street Fighter, right? Something that doesn't even exist in Smash 4.
My point is, this were changes that Sakurai made to adapt Ryu to fit in Smash Bros, thus they could adapt the V-trigger or even remove it to make this possible.

 

[Orlando BCN]

But he does need a Special gauge to use his Specials moves (Shinkuu Hadoken or Shin Shoryuken) in Street Fighter, right? Something that doesn't even exist in Smash 4.
My point is, this were changes that Sakurai made to adapt Ryu to fit in Smash Bros, thus they could adapt the V-trigger or even remove it to make this possible.

That’s what Final Smashes are for; to substitute for the special gauges. You can’t have a separate meter that buffs all of Ken’s moves; that’s basically an Install, which used to be the final smash of characters like Lucario and Wario.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

1- Yeah, you guys were explain why he doesn't, but unlike you, some people were unnecessarily disrespectful and/or arrogant. The point of my thread wasn't necessarily to talk about how a character is accurate about their game, it was just about why Ken doesn't have a fire Hadoken... and yes, Ken DOES HAVE the fire Hadoken, so there was nothing wrong with my thread besides the Shakunetsu. And a mistake isn't a reason to people being disrespectful.

2-Normal attacks or VT/Special Attacks or whatever, it is FIRE, so Ken canonically does have fire. Therefore my arguments are valid.

3-The fire Hadoken could be the properties to burn his opponents in one single hit (more like Street Fighter effects), since the Ryu's Shakunetsu has multi hits. The way to summoning this technique is up to Sakurai.

4-They could apply to one move, some moves are different from their original game, the Focus Attack in Smash can change the direction, in the original game this isn't possible.



Street Fighter V was released in February 2016, the roster was decided in the end of 2015, the difference is only 2 months, and they had 2 years to add some flames effects after SFV was already out, I think it was perfectly possible, it was just a choice of Sakurai.

Alright, I agree with some of these points. I hadn’t really been paying enough attention to this thread to see people being overly hostile, so I figured you were partly getting mad at me.

Thing about Ken that I’m pointing out though is that it only happens with VT, which wasn’t a thing until SFV. Before that it wouldn’t have been valid.

That said, now we get to the problem of implementing it into Ken’s moveset. Making a single hit fire Hadoken with its own command input wouldn’t be accurate to anything Ken has, and would come at the cost of moves he actually does have (Roundhouse kicks). That is unless you want to give him Akuma’s Shakunetsu motion, which considering he already has a command input that takes you through that motion, it would be... problematic, to say the least, on top of Ken having no reason to have it.

Using Focus Attack as an example where it literally has its own unique mechanic just to be more accurate to SF (FADC) doesn’t exactly work. Plus, turning it around is still way more accurate than removing the defining characteristic of Shakunetsu (It being multihit).

As for VT, the problem isn’t that they couldn’t implement it, the problem is that Ken with VT would have to have unique properties on nearly his entire moveset, AND have a bunch of the differences from Ryu that he had in SFV (Tatsu change, Quick Step, different normals, etc.), and at that point he wouldn’t be an Echo, and Ken not being an Echo would mess with his planned roster.

 

[Young Link.]

You can’t have a separate meter that buffs all of Ken’s moves; that’s basically an Install

Yeah you can. Look at Little Mac and Cloud, they both have a special gauges that buffs all of their moves (in the case of Cloud). They could do this or something similar to Ken.

As for VT, the problem isn’t that they couldn’t implement it, the problem is that Ken with VT would have to have unique properties on nearly his entire moveset, AND have a bunch of the differences from Ryu that he had in SFV (Tatsu change, Quick Step, different normals, etc.), and at that point he wouldn’t be an Echo, and Ken not being an Echo would mess with his planned roster.

Ken is already way too different from Ryu, many find he practically can't be considered an Echo anymore.
They could give Ken the VT easily and yet call him "Echo", after all this term "Echo Fighter" is totally arbitrary, doesn't make much sense since characters like Dr. Mario is not considered an Echo Fighter but Ken who is WAAAAAYYYY much more different from Ryu than Dr. Mario is from Mario, but yet Ken is considered an Echo, but Dr. Mario doesn't? This doesn't make sense anyway.

 

[Orlando BCN]

Yeah you can. Look at Little Mac and Cloud, they both have a special gauges that buffs all of their moves (in the case of Cloud). They could do this or something similar to Ken.

No, their meters only buff one move at a time. Should they add a V-trigger special move to replace FA, its purpose would be to use either one of Ken’s buffed moves, but not all at will. In FF7, getting full Limit meant you could only use one Limit Break, but not all of them. Know yo facks.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead.

 

[Young Link.]

No, their meters only buff one move at a time. Should they add a V-trigger special move to replace FA, its purpose would be to use either one of Ken’s buffed moves, but not all at will. In FF7, getting full Limit meant you could only use one Limit Break, but not all of them. Know yo facks.

Dude, the gauges (from Little Mac and Cloud) I said before were just examples, what I meant is that they can make any kind of gauges they want, there are the most varied types of gauges in Smash Bros, each of them they made the way they wanted, this is just a question of programming.

Please do not double post. Edit your messages instead.

Ok

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Yeah you can. Look at Little Mac and Cloud, they both have a special gauges that buffs all of their moves (in the case of Cloud). They could do this or something similar to Ken.


Ken is already way too different from Ryu, many find he practically can't be considered an Echo anymore.
They could give Ken the VT easily and yet call him "Echo", after all this term "Echo Fighter" is totally arbitrary, doesn't make much sense since characters like Dr. Mario is not considered an Echo Fighter but Ken who is WAAAAAYYYY much more different from Ryu than Dr. Mario is from Mario, but yet Ken is considered an Echo, but Dr. Mario doesn't? This doesn't make sense anyway.

Ok, this part is just completely false. Ken is still very much an Echo and Doc isn’t. Just to put things in perspective for a moment, here are all of Ken’s differences from Ryu:
- His ground speed is higher
- Heavy Jab is different
- Heavy FTilt is different
- FSmash is different
- Nair is different
- Up Smash is different
- Back Throw is “different” (Identical move but he rolls back before performing it)
- Command Inputs are different
- Shoryuken is different
- Hadoken is different
- Tatsu is different
- Focus is different

12 changes, and the rest of Ken’s moves are 1:1 with Ryu

Doc meanwhile has:
- Jab
- FTilt
- DTilt
- UTilt
- FSmash
- DSmash
- USmash
- Nair
- Fair
- Bair
- Dair
- Uair
- Pummel
- FThrow
- BThrow
- DThrow
- UThrow
- Neutral B
- Side B
- Down B
- Up B
- Ground Speed
- Air Speed
- Hurtbox

Admittedly the changes are less noticeable, but Doc still does not share a single move or attribute that is 1:1 with Mario except for his weight.

Giving Ken VT would make him more of a Doc-style Clone, would make him completely broken, and would take up too much development time.

 

[Young Link.]

Ok, this part is just completely false. Ken is still very much an Echo and Doc isn’t. Just to put things in perspective for a moment, here are all of Ken’s differences from Ryu:
- His ground speed is higher
- Heavy Jab is different
- Heavy FTilt is different
- FSmash is different
- Nair is different
- Up Smash is different
- Back Throw is “different” (Identical move but he rolls back before performing it)
- Command Inputs are different
- Shoryuken is different
- Hadoken is different
- Tatsu is different
- Focus is different

12 changes, and the rest of Ken’s moves are 1:1 with Ryu

Doc meanwhile has:
- Jab
- FTilt
- DTilt
- UTilt
- FSmash
- DSmash
- USmash
- Nair
- Fair
- Bair
- Dair
- Uair
- Pummel
- FThrow
- BThrow
- DThrow
- UThrow
- Neutral B
- Side B
- Down B
- Up B
- Ground Speed
- Air Speed
- Hurtbox

Admittedly the changes are less noticeable, but Doc still does not share a single move or attribute that is 1:1 with Mario except for his weight.

Giving Ken VT would make him more of a Doc-style Clone, would make him completely broken, and would take up too much development time.

Are you realizing that we are comparing an Echo with a "no Echo"? And yet the differences are so slightly that you need to use stuffs like hutbox, or other details that are Echo Fighters things, not from an original fighter... (?)

Plus, your Dr. Mario list is very wrong:
-Jab (has no difference to Mario, BOTH are two punches + one kick)
-FTilt (same as Mario's)
- DTilt (same as Mario's)
- UTilt (same as Mario's)
- FSmash (same as Mario's, but has electric effects, this is ECHO stuff, not an ORIGINAL thing, as Doc is meant to be)
- DSmash (same as Mario's)
- USmash (same as Mario's)
- Nair (same as Mario's)
- Fair (same as Mario's)
- Bair (same as Mario's)
- Dair (FIRST MOVE TOTALLY NEW FROM DR.MARIO, FOR A CHARACTER THAT "IS NOT AN ECHO" IT'S RIDICULOUS)
- Uair (Same as Mario's)
- Pummel (What do you mean by "pummel"? Isn't it the same as "Jab"? If so, it's the same as Mario)
- FThrow (same as Mario's)
- BThrow (The second move of this list totally NEW, congrats Doc.!)
- DThrow (same as Mario's)
- UThrow (same as Mario's)
- Neutral B (same as Mario, except the visual or some minor effects/damage, Echo stuff)
- Side B (same as Mario, except the visual or some minor effects/damage, Echo stuff)
- Down B (same as Luigi, except the visual or some minor effects/damage, Echo stuff like Chrom)
- Up B (same as Mario/Luigi, except the visual or some minor effects/damage, Echo stuff)
- Ground Speed (yep, Dr. Mario is much more slow than Mario)
- Air Speed (yep, Dr. Mario is much more slow than Mario in the air)
- Hurtbox (if you are using hurtbox to differentiate Dr. Mario from Mario, so yeah Doc is indeed an Echo)

So, from your list at the best there are only 4 real differences (in which these 4 only 2 are moves) between Dr. Mario and Mario, the other things are so tiny (or does not exist) that it's Echo stuff. Therefore, as Ken, Dr. Mario should be an Echo Fighter, but he isn't simply because Sakurai don't want.

The term "Echo Fighter" is totally arbitrary.

Giving Ken VT would make him more of a Doc-style Clone, would make him completely broken, and would take up too much development time.

I partially agree here. I agree that giving Ken V-Trigger would take up too much development time, I think this was the reason Sakurai didn't put this mechanic to Ken.
But I disagree that this would make him broken, all depends on how it would work, and how much time/damage/advantages/disadvantages this mechanic would be. With a good balance it would work very well. Smash Bros has already a ton of different mechanics that work very well with their characters, I'm sure Sakurai is very capable to put this feature in Smash without break the game.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Ok, here’s where you’re wrong:

Echoes are defined by how many differences they have, doesn’t matter how small they are. Doc’s differences are small but noticeable and since LITERALLY ALL OF THEM act different, they add up. Different frame data, different damage, different knockback, different sweetspots, Up Smash’s launch angle, Cape not stalling, Down Throw not comboing, Fair not spiking, there is not a single move that Doc has that is 1:1 with Mario’s. Ken (and every single Echo) have some differences, but the rest of the moves are completely 1:1 with the base fighter. Visuals are not what determines an Echo, because visually you could argue that everyone in 64 except DK is a clone of eachother because they share animations.

 

[Young Link.]

Ok, here’s where you’re wrong:

Echoes are defined by how many differences they have, doesn’t matter how small they are. Doc’s differences are small but noticeable and since LITERALLY ALL OF THEM act different, they add up. Different frame data, different damage, different knockback, different sweetspots, Up Smash’s launch angle, Cape not stalling, Down Throw not comboing, Fair not spiking, there is not a single move that Doc has that is 1:1 with Mario’s. Ken (and every single Echo) have some differences, but the rest of the moves are completely 1:1 with the base fighter. Visuals are not what determines an Echo, because visually you could argue that everyone in 64 except DK is a clone of eachother because they share animations.

Ok, where did you get that information about what "define" Echoes and no Echoes? From the game?
Because I can get some information from the game and make my own definition of Echo Fighter based in different data/information/opinion. Other person could do the same and we'll have a 3rd definition of Echo Fighter.

The definition of Echo Fighter isn't written in any part of the game by what I know so far, I've never seen Sakurai set what exactly is Echo Fighter, therefore you can't say what it is that defines Echoes based on your interpretation/opinion of the game's data/info. If this isn't written explicit in the game or Sakurai don't define with his own words, the definition of Echo Fighter will always be open to interpretations/opinions.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Ok, where did you get that information about what "define" Echoes and no Echoes? From the game?
Because I can get some information from the game and make my own definition of Echo Fighter based in different data/information/opinion. Other person could do the same and we'll have a 3rd definition of Echo Fighter.

The definition of Echo Fighter isn't written in any part of the game by what I know so far, I've never seen Sakurai set what exactly is Echo Fighter, therefore you can't say what it is that defines Echoes based on your interpretation/opinion of the game's data/info. If this isn't written explicit in the game or Sakurai don't define with his own words, the definition of Echo Fighter will always be open to interpretations/opinions.

I’m forming my definition of what an Echo is by making a pattern that allows Doc to not be an Echo while Ken is. You made your own conclusion about what an Echo is, but considering the fact that you believe Ken is more unique than Doc (And presumably think he should be an Echo/Is an Echo), your definition of Echo is wrong because it includes a character who is not an Echo.