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So, custom movesets. Who benefits?

Ulevo

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Originally I completely ignored custom moves on characters because I thought no one would have any competitive interest in them and it would wind up being a wash. Turns out many people are interested in their use in tournaments, but I know diddly squat. I know that Palutena is amazing with customs, while Meta Knight basically doesn't benefit at all. So who do you see improving from customized movesets?
 

warriorman222

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Everyone benefits from customs, and everyone has an option better in different MUs. there a two handfuls of characters who benefit so much form customs that they should all share 4th or 5th place, with very minor differences making the top of the tier list.

Plus, Rosalina and Diddy get shot down, and while Shiek gains usable stuff, she too fall to a lesser extent because the amount of really good characters are insane.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Basically everyone except Diddy, his customs are just sort of meh compared to his defaults. Even Meta Knight has some interesting options like High Speed Drill and Dreadful Tornado.

Some standout examples:

  • Palutena (Super Speed)
  • Villager (Timber Counter, Exploding Balloon Trip)
  • Samus (Relentless Missiles)
  • Ganondorf (Wizard's Dropkick)
  • Rosalina (Shooting Star Bit, Luma Warp)
  • Sonic (Hammer Spin Dash)
  • Kirby (Jumping Inhale)
  • Falco (Reflector Void)
  • Shulk (Power Vision)
  • Charizard (Dragon Rush)
  • Lucario (Snaring Aura Sphere)
  • Peach (Light Veggie)
  • Robin (Thunder+)
  • Marth (Dashing Assault)
  • Ike (Tempest, Close Combat, Aether Drive)
  • Greninja (Shifting Shuriken)

And that's just after a few minutes' thought. Basically everyone has a few options that can give a player serious pause and make them think about what they should use.
 
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Teshie U

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A good few threads on this subject, but this does seem to be specific enough to separate from those.

From what I've seen, obviously Miis and Palutena gain the most as they can completely revolutionize their playstyles.

I don't think MK has terrible customs overall. I see some potential in his Cape and Tornado customs.

Alot of pro-custom people will tell you that top tier gain the least from customs, but its up and down across the board. Some great and bad characters gain almost nothing useful (Like Sonic and Jiggs). And likewise there are some characters that can get a good boost (Doc, Ness, Ganon, Rosalina.

Most characters have to make sacrifices to optimize for matchups like Marth Megaman.

Diddy is in there with the "sacrifice" crowd. Side B is too useful to switch out, but the custom bananas, giant peanuts and even the power up b have niche uses if he is willing to sacrifice something he might not need in a certain matchup. For example, the tripping banana can be less useful vs aerial characters like Peach, Jiggs etc.
 
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Duck SMASH!

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DASHING FALCON PUNCH!!!!!
On a more serious note, it adds a lot more depth to matchups. I think that if you do not know what customs your opponent has, you will play more cautiously to bait them out, which can be interesting to see someone save a DASHING FALCON PUNCH for the last stock to end the game. :D
 

Neoleo21

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Everyone Benefits but top tiers tend to have good moves already which is why they benefit less, Jiggs just got boned though she still got pound blitz as a consolation. Rosalina in particular is slightly hurt by custom moves since more characters gain options for her like Speed Thunder for Robin. Some customs increase the potency of styles like Ganon's or they offer different ways to use the character like Toon Link's. Its just good in general really, their implementation causes far more good than bad.
 

Raijinken

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Almost every character gains some mileage from at least one custom. Even those who don't can find SOME niche use in specific matchups.
 
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Villager goes from being decidedly average to being pretty darn great with Timber Counter and Extreme Balloons. Rosalina has great options in Shooting Star Bit, Luma Warp, and Guardian Luma. Palutena's approach gets a good buff with Jump Glide and Lightweight. Then there are more niche customs. Crescent Slash gives Marth and Lucina a guaranteed follow-up in certain situations amd on certain characters, at the expense of a riskier recovery.

There are other customs where its just up to preference. Garden comes to mind. Um, I think Leaf Shield versus Plant Shield would also fall under this.

In general though customs do more good than harm across the roster.
 
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Raijinken

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There are other customs where its just up to preference. Garden comes to mind. Um, I think Leaf Shield versus Plant Shield would also fall under this.
I'd put all three Shields under that. Rare as it is, reflecting a Charge Shot or Thoron with the Skull Barrier gives it some niche applications.
 
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Oh I know. Personally I prefer Skull Barrier, but if its solely between either Leaf Shield or Plant Shield it seems like a toss up to me.
 

Thinkaman

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This is what I said in a PM to someone that asked:

I have the benefit of playing ~2000 games, almost exclusively with customs, and without a main. (I play ~20 characters, which for the record is a terrible idea.)

If I were to rate the extent to which characters benefit from customs 1-10, strictly based on my personal experience and current opinions:

(Keep in mind, this is considering how much the character's overall matchups improve. If a character has a great custom, but an even better default, it doesn't matter. Meanwhile, if the character has a "bad" custom that is still worth taking in certain matchups (WFT and Little Mac come to mind), they do benefit some. Rosalina's placing also factors in that a lot of characters Luma used to faceroll gain access to anti-Luma tools.)

I'm not including :4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword: because I have zero experience without customs when it comes to them, to compare to.

10 - :4palutena:
9 - :4ganondorf::4myfriends:
8 - :4bowserjr::4wiifit::4duckhunt:
7 - :4dk::4shulk::4charizard::4samus:
6 - :4villager::4olimar::4falco::4littlemac::4bowser:
5 - :4mario::4luigi::4lucario::4robinm::4greninja::4tlink::4link::4drmario:
4 - :rosalina::4sonic::4fox::4peach::4megaman::4pacman::4rob::4kirby:
3 - :4pikachu::4falcon::4pit::4darkpit::4wario::4metaknight::4dedede::4marth::4lucina:
2 - :4sheik::4zss::4ness::4yoshi::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
1 - :4diddy:

Filtered for no-customs top 50% only, according to me:

10 -
9 -
8 -
7 - :4dk:
6 - :4villager::4olimar:
5 - :4mario::4luigi::4lucario::4robinm::4greninja:
4 - :rosalina::4sonic::4fox::4peach::4megaman:
3 - :4pikachu::4falcon::4pit::4darkpit::4wario:
2 - :4sheik::4zss::4ness::4yoshi::4jigglypuff:
1 - :4diddy:

Filtered for no-customs bottom 50% only, according to me:

10 - :4palutena:
9 - :4ganondorf::4myfriends:
8 - :4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4wiifit:
7 - :4charizard::4samus::4shulk:
6 - :4falco::4littlemac::4bowser:
5 - :4tlink::4link::4drmario:
4 - :4pacman::4rob::4kirby:
3 - :4metaknight::4dedede::4marth::4lucina:
2 - :4zelda:
1 -

One final tidbit: I ran the numbers, and imo just over 60% of default specials are actually best-in-slot. They seem to have been very conservative in making the customs.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I mostly agree with Thinkaman's analysis on who gets more or less from customs (some disagreements, think he really sleeps on Fox's customs). I would, however, like to drive home an important point.

Almost everyone wins. That doesn't make sense at first since you'd think one side winning would about even out to another side losing, but the overall pool of viability just skyrockets from customs being on. The only character distinctly below the halfway mark of the cast who doesn't get something powerful enough to be game changing is Zelda. Most characters who make an argument to be good but who aren't really top characters get the stuff they need to really challenge the top. Even among top characters, it's amazing how well it works. Rosalina is mostly a "loser" in the sense that tons of characters get stuff to deal with Luma, but she's really a winner in my book since her customs are actually useful in a way that is mostly tailored to help her deal with the other top characters so I'm more comfortable using her in tournament with customs on even as I know a lot more characters can feasibly win against her in that environment.

Honestly I kinda feel like the only characters who legitimately lose are Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Jigglypuff. Zero Suit Samus probably exactly breaks even. The other 47 characters all feel like winners to at least some extent (though Ness only really gets a small net positive due to the increased relative value of PSI Magnet in a customs environment; it's an indirect boon!). Custom moves are that incredible of a system; if I was told before release that they would work this well, I probably wouldn't have believed it.

In terms of playstyles, I would like to highlight one specific style that wins, and that's the heavyweight. By default the heavy characters tend to have bad neutrals and abusable recoveries, downsides that become highlighted at ever increasing levels of play. Customs just fix this up so much for all of them. Ike, Charizard, DK, Bowser, and Ganondorf all get substantial help in both areas with customs to the point that it really, really makes that playstyle a lot more of a thing at a competitive level. I still do believe Charizard is a good character either way, but without you're bucking the grain whereas with the entire playstyle just feels so much more worthwhile.

In terms of what you have to learn, I'd learn specifically how to fight Timber Counter and Hammer Spin Dash. Neither are broken at all or even badly made moves (both are super interesting actually), but you do not want to see either for the first time in tournament since both tend to take a few games to adjust to. Most of the other custom moves on characters you don't main you can probably take a "learn as you go" approach to; those two are the only two I'd take a moment aside to look into how they work and what you need to do to deal with them.
 

HeavyLobster

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This is what I said in a PM to someone that asked:

I have the benefit of playing ~2000 games, almost exclusively with customs, and without a main. (I play ~20 characters, which for the record is a terrible idea.)

If I were to rate the extent to which characters benefit from customs 1-10, strictly based on my personal experience and current opinions:

(Keep in mind, this is considering how much the character's overall matchups improve. If a character has a great custom, but an even better default, it doesn't matter. Meanwhile, if the character has a "bad" custom that is still worth taking in certain matchups (WFT and Little Mac come to mind), they do benefit some. Rosalina's placing also factors in that a lot of characters Luma used to faceroll gain access to anti-Luma tools.)

I'm not including :4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword: because I have zero experience without customs when it comes to them, to compare to.

10 - :4palutena:
9 - :4ganondorf::4myfriends:
8 - :4bowserjr::4wiifit::4duckhunt:
7 - :4dk::4shulk::4charizard::4samus:
6 - :4villager::4olimar::4falco::4littlemac::4bowser:
5 - :4mario::4luigi::4lucario::4robinm::4greninja::4tlink::4link::4drmario:
4 - :rosalina::4sonic::4fox::4peach::4megaman::4pacman::4rob::4kirby:
3 - :4pikachu::4falcon::4pit::4darkpit::4wario::4metaknight::4dedede::4marth::4lucina:
2 - :4sheik::4zss::4ness::4yoshi::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
1 - :4diddy:

Filtered for no-customs top 50% only, according to me:

10 -
9 -
8 -
7 - :4dk:
6 - :4villager::4olimar:
5 - :4mario::4luigi::4lucario::4robinm::4greninja:
4 - :rosalina::4sonic::4fox::4peach::4megaman:
3 - :4pikachu::4falcon::4pit::4darkpit::4wario:
2 - :4sheik::4zss::4ness::4yoshi::4jigglypuff:
1 - :4diddy:

Filtered for no-customs bottom 50% only, according to me:

10 - :4palutena:
9 - :4ganondorf::4myfriends:
8 - :4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4wiifit:
7 - :4charizard::4samus::4shulk:
6 - :4falco::4littlemac::4bowser:
5 - :4tlink::4link::4drmario:
4 - :4pacman::4rob::4kirby:
3 - :4metaknight::4dedede::4marth::4lucina:
2 - :4zelda:
1 -

One final tidbit: I ran the numbers, and imo just over 60% of default specials are actually best-in-slot. They seem to have been very conservative in making the customs.
Poor Zelda. :(
 

Jebus244

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DASHING FALCON PUNCH!!!!!
On a more serious note, it adds a lot more depth to matchups. I think that if you do not know what customs your opponent has, you will play more cautiously to bait them out, which can be interesting to see someone save a DASHING FALCON PUNCH for the last stock to end the game. :D
I want to say when it concerns custom moves in tournaments, this is the mindset I was worried about. I really hope the majority of players do not think this way. If customs are used in tournaments there has to be full disclosure of your moveset before the match, right? We can't include customs so we can hide our strategy. This is called cheese, and it doesn't make you good. This sort of play will result in extreme BS, lesser skilled players taking some cheap wins, and ultimately campy play just to learn your opponent's moveset.

Edit: I don't mean to call you out @ Duck SMASH! Duck SMASH! , I just wanted to address the idea that custom's could be used this way.
 
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Duck SMASH!

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I want to say when it concerns custom moves in tournaments, this is the mindset I was worried about. I really hope the majority of players do not think this way. If customs are used in tournaments there has to be full disclosure of your moveset before the match, right? We can't include customs so we can hide our strategy. This is called cheese, and it doesn't make you good. This sort of play will result in extreme BS, lesser skilled players taking some cheap wins, and ultimately campy play just to learn your opponent's moveset.

Edit: I don't mean to call you out @ Duck SMASH! Duck SMASH! , I just wanted to address the idea that custom's could be used this way.
Hmmm.. true. I did not give it that much thought but in tournaments it's probably better to disclose.
I guess I was thinking with a Pokémon mindset, because this kind of thing happens in Pokémon battles where you surprise opponents with an unexpected set/build.
But in Smash it probably doesn't translate as effectively.
Full disclosure would partly remedy this I guess. If you don't know how to deal with your opponents' customs though that's your problem.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Concerning the OPs question.

Ike/Ganon/Falco ar ethe main three I think benefit the most from them being legal.

Miis entirely depends what the TO forces on them if customs are off.

It also is not a joke when people say Diddy doesn't benefit from customs if at all, his are legit horrid.
 

DunnoBro

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I have no idea why jiggly isn't getting more love, jumping rest is borderline OP. Boss never even really used jiggly and he was gettin me with that **** for free.

Regular rest for fast fallers and jumping for floaties/multi jumpers.

Also zelda has some super complex projectiles so I think it's too soon to say she doesn't benefit from them. The delayed din's fire seems to set up for both grabs and combos.

Marth and Lucina's horizontal crescent slash also enables lots of combos, especially from grabs... The dashing assault also sets up for this. It's an incredible anti-air and punish too.

D3 and MK are the only ones I'm concerned about.
 

MrGame&Rock

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@People saying Diddy "loses" from Custom moves being available: Thats not entirely true. The reason why is twofold: for one, Diddy has a couple custom moves that are good in certain matchups, like electric Banana against air characters like Peach and Puff, and Rocketbarell Attack against characters who prefer vertical KOs. (using Up B as an attack with the explosion is a lot of fun from my experience) But more importantly, Diddy wins because with a more balanced game nobody's going to cry for his nerf or ban any more. If almost everyone else gains relative to Diddy and Diddy becomes comparatively worse, the stigma against Diddy will die off. He's a great character even with everyone else getting better through customs, just not as great (at least, in the public eye) as he is now. It's the same idea as Balanced Brawl's nerfed MK. In that mod, MK fit in more in the cast as a balanced character and was better for it. IDK, something to think about I guess
 

Thinkaman

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I actually have started to really like delayed Din's more and more. No Din's is good in neutral, but it's solid at edgeguarding.

Din's in their path -> air dodge -> toe -> gg

for one, Diddy has a couple custom moves that are good in certain matchups, like electric Banana against air characters like Peach and Puff,
I'm skeptical about this one, but I would use the Battering Banana against Rosalina. (It sends Luma into tumble)
 
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A2ZOMG

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I actually have started to really like delayed Din's more and more. No Din's is good in neutral, but it's solid at edgeguarding.

Din's in their path -> air dodge -> toe -> gg



I'm skeptical about this one, but I would use the Battering Banana against Rosalina. (It sends Luma into tumble)
Din's Blaze also actually has non-trivial utility in the negative state. You can put a fireball behind you as you land, which has some interesting applications.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I have no idea why jiggly isn't getting more love, jumping rest is borderline OP. Boss never even really used jiggly and he was gettin me with that **** for free.

Regular rest for fast fallers and jumping for floaties/multi jumpers.
You weren't able to punish it hard afterward? It didn't seem powerful enough to justify outside of, like Teams, either. When was it killing?
 

Macchiato

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Zelda benefits decently, phantom strike is amazing since it won't miss because of a dead zone.
Din's blaze is great for edgeguarding and setups, yew can do a lot with it.
Farore's windfall kills at 30% and works midair. Yew can control her really well in freefall while in Farore's wind, yew barely move in freefall.
 

Teshie U

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Pokemon has 0 execution and is a pure strategy game. Hiding things away until the right moment can be very important there. While thats not a horrendous thing to have for a fighting game, its not really going to add anything for us and how are you even going to hide your setup on the Wii U version anyway?

Its definitely a bit deceptive to imply that good characters like Rosalina and Diddy Kong are losing something because of other characters becoming more viable. By the same logic, all the characters that gained stronger approach options are made worse by the stronger camping options.

In any case, the main takeaway is that we should be pushing for all characters to be as optimized as they can be, then we can see the big picture instead of just theory.
 

DavemanCozy

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Brawler really wants customs to be the top tier he is. Helicopter Kick is that important.

( personally I feel like they should be allowed for Miis even with the custom button off, but that's another topic )
 

Pazx

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Doesn't helicopter kick reduce Brawler's recovery to Mac-tier?

I'm of the opinion that Miis don't have custom moves, just different options.
 

DavemanCozy

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Doesn't helicopter kick reduce Brawler's recovery to Mac-tier?

I'm of the opinion that Miis don't have custom moves, just different options.
Yeah, but the KO options you gain are just insanely good, and it's not like Brawler's recovery is that surprising vertically anyways, even with Piston Punch or the meh Axe Kick.

Feint Jump and Burning Dropkick can help with horizontal recovery. DaPuffster using Helicopter Kick:
 

Lavani

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Yeah, but the KO options you gain are just insanely good, and it's not like Brawler's recovery is that surprising vertically anyways, even with Piston Punch or the meh Axe Kick.

Feint Jump and Burning Dropkick can help with horizontal recovery. DaPuffster using Helicopter Kick:
Though the gif is demonstrating it against a heavier character, I still feel it needs to be stressed that the kill combos available with Helicopter Kick are really dumb to the point where you aren't going to mind having a piddly vertical recovery. Even then, it still makes Brawler's horizontal recovery amazing.

It's kind of ridiculous how just changing Brawler's upB can turn it into an amazing character.
 

Kofu

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This is what I said in a PM to someone that asked:

I have the benefit of playing ~2000 games, almost exclusively with customs, and without a main. (I play ~20 characters, which for the record is a terrible idea.)

If I were to rate the extent to which characters benefit from customs 1-10, strictly based on my personal experience and current opinions:

(Keep in mind, this is considering how much the character's overall matchups improve. If a character has a great custom, but an even better default, it doesn't matter. Meanwhile, if the character has a "bad" custom that is still worth taking in certain matchups (WFT and Little Mac come to mind), they do benefit some. Rosalina's placing also factors in that a lot of characters Luma used to faceroll gain access to anti-Luma tools.)

I'm not including :4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword: because I have zero experience without customs when it comes to them, to compare to.

10 - :4palutena:
9 - :4ganondorf::4myfriends:
8 - :4bowserjr::4wiifit::4duckhunt:
7 - :4dk::4shulk::4charizard::4samus:
6 - :4villager::4olimar::4falco::4littlemac::4bowser:
5 - :4mario::4luigi::4lucario::4robinm::4greninja::4tlink::4link::4drmario:
4 - :rosalina::4sonic::4fox::4peach::4megaman::4pacman::4rob::4kirby:
3 - :4pikachu::4falcon::4pit::4darkpit::4wario::4metaknight::4dedede::4marth::4lucina:
2 - :4sheik::4zss::4ness::4yoshi::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
1 - :4diddy:

Filtered for no-customs top 50% only, according to me:

10 -
9 -
8 -
7 - :4dk:
6 - :4villager::4olimar:
5 - :4mario::4luigi::4lucario::4robinm::4greninja:
4 - :rosalina::4sonic::4fox::4peach::4megaman:
3 - :4pikachu::4falcon::4pit::4darkpit::4wario:
2 - :4sheik::4zss::4ness::4yoshi::4jigglypuff:
1 - :4diddy:

Filtered for no-customs bottom 50% only, according to me:

10 - :4palutena:
9 - :4ganondorf::4myfriends:
8 - :4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4wiifit:
7 - :4charizard::4samus::4shulk:
6 - :4falco::4littlemac::4bowser:
5 - :4tlink::4link::4drmario:
4 - :4pacman::4rob::4kirby:
3 - :4metaknight::4dedede::4marth::4lucina:
2 - :4zelda:
1 -

One final tidbit: I ran the numbers, and imo just over 60% of default specials are actually best-in-slot. They seem to have been very conservative in making the customs.
Where does :4gaw: fall? Not especially relevant but I noticed he was missing.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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I agree with the position that customs should be fully disclosed before a match. The GUI for using custom moves makes this pretty natural; if the project's movesets are loaded, you can see what build they're using when they pick their character (like if you see me pick Rosalina 2311, you know I'm packing Luma Warp, Shooting Star Bit, Launch Star, and Gravitational Pull assuming you're familiar enough with Rosalina to know what she does!). If you import from a 3ds, the GUI there shows the specific moves on your build. I'd endorse being required to tell your opponent if they don't see and ask. Custom moves are not about sneakily picking a subtly different character; they're about playing as a more dynamic and interesting version of your character with the only surprises being how you choose to use those moves.

I actually do like Leaping Rest and think it's definitely the main thing Jigglypuff gets out of customs. I just think it's not enough to offset how many other characters have an easier time recovering against her and that on balance it adds less to her than most other characters got from their stuff in the first place.

Rocketbarrel Attack is a suicidal pick for Diddy Kong. You're cutting his recovery in half; there's no match-up in which that makes sense especially in light of the offensive uses of Rocketbarrel Attack not even being that impressive (I look at it as an even worse trade-off than Launch Star Attack on Rosalina, and Launch Star Attack is a pretty lousy custom). I main Rosalina and would love for an opposing Diddy to give up his combos off bananas for his incredibly dubious alternatives regardless of what they can or can not do to Luma, but hey, if any Diddy wanted to nerf their banana game voluntarily, I wouldn't object for sure.

That being said, yeah, Diddy running 1111 can still do all Diddy can do with customs on or off. It's just that with them on, more characters are on that stronger power level to challenge him. Even a Diddy main should be able to enjoy customs legal just for being able to use their same awesome character and fight against a more diverse array of interesting and powerful opponents.

As per G&W, I dunno how Thinkaman would rate him, but I'd rate his customs pretty highly. Short Order Chef is an amazing custom, drastically improves G&W's projectile game and lets him win a variety of projectile wars he otherwise would have no chance in (when you begin forcing Villager to approach...). Chain Judge is a great custom itself, trading the 1/9 "instant kill" from Judge for a far more consistently useful move (that still hits stupid hard if you happen to get a 9, just is way more balanced and generally better across all numbers). Both Fire variants are pretty great; I really like up-2 for the raw power (this move hits *way* too hard for an up special with no helpless), but I know a lot of G&W players really like up-3 which is a lot more interesting even if less straightforward powerful. Up-1 is still great of course; it just gives G&W a really interesting option set on his up special. I think down special variants are mostly bad, but I'd definitely take Panic Overload against Bowser and Charizard as it's pretty much specifically built to make the move more useful against fire breath style moves (some G&Ws seem to like Efficient Panic, but IMO it's just worthless in all MUs). I still think G&W is a kinda bad character in this game either way to be real, but with customs he has way more to work with.
 

Jedisupersonic

Eight Leaves One Kame Style
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Ike gains quite a bit with customs, although I prefer his original Aether for combos and understage pressure, when I use custom Ike it's usually 2222 lol.
 

Jigglymaster

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Doesn't helicopter kick reduce Brawler's recovery to Mac-tier?

I'm of the opinion that Miis don't have custom moves, just different options.
Vertically yes, but for a character who has one of the highest air speeds in the game along with a 3rd jump it's kind of hard to gimp him no matter how far horizontally you send him, he can recovery high for free.

Axe Kick isn't even as great for recovering as people say, it doesn't snap to the ledge and doesn't even have range on its hit hitboxes, meaning you can just charge a smash attack and hit Mii Brawler for free when he's recovering with that terrible move.

Though the gif is demonstrating it against a heavier character, I still feel it needs to be stressed that the kill combos available with Helicopter Kick are really dumb to the point where you aren't going to mind having a piddly vertical recovery. Even then, it still makes Brawler's horizontal recovery amazing.

It's kind of ridiculous how just changing Brawler's upB can turn it into an amazing character.
Honestly it doesn't take much to change a bad character into a good character. Mii Brawler is like a puzzle piece that is just missing the last few pieces, and when they're added he becomes complete.

Things like these would not be possible with 1111 Brawler
http://youtu.be/tEbo95PY6NY?t=7m3s
http://youtu.be/NhZBbepHR2w?t=12m47s
 
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