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So, Boss...*cough*

JesseMcCloud

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We've had some similar discussions in the past, but this recent snafu on VGBootCamp's livestream
(see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TMsFB_0rO8 around the 11:35 mark)
has brought a touchy subject back into the light:
What terms are and aren't appropriate for this community?
I think it's safe to say most if not all of us want to attract more players to the community. Does this mean we should at least censor ourselves for the sake of our community? Is it any great badness to cut a couple of possibly-offensive words or phrases from the general vocabulary?
(This thread made with blessing from standardtoaster: mod, PMBR, and all-around good guy.)
 
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Saito

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Well I would think that **** is the most inappropriate one.

Any alluding to that same word is also just as bad.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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Does this mean we should at least censor ourselves for the more sensitive members of our community?
That's a pretty leading question, McCloud.

It's got jack-all to do with sensitivity. Some words are offensive, triggering, or have a lot of history behind them. If you see the logic behind not being allowed to use racial slurs in public fora, you can understand why using words like '****' as part of the community vocabulary is a bad idea.
 

JesseMcCloud

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That's a pretty leading question, McCloud.

It's got jack-all to do with sensitivity. Some words are offensive, triggering, or have a lot of history behind them. If you see the logic behind not being allowed to use racial slurs in public fora, you can understand why using words like '****' as part of the community vocabulary is a bad idea.
I completely agree.
However, there are some who have no issues with the word (and many other, worse words.) These are the insensitive ones.
That said, sorry if the question sounds leading; I'll re-word it.
 
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Linkale

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I understand if people get offended by certain words, but did they really have to make such a big deal about it? They took Boss of the stream, and said apparently "He's out of control"? ( Don't really understand that part ). It just seemed very rude how they treated him for accidentally saying something. As someone who really likes Boss, I'm not sure I feel like supporting VG now. It's one thing to take him aside later and tell him he what he's not allowed to do. It's another thing to treat him like he's something disgusting that has to be disposed of. Overall I found it very rude. Heck, if you look close enough, there are many words that could be taken offensively. Oh my God is technically offensive to Christians, but you don't hear them talking **** to people who say it.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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I understand if people get offended by certain words, but did they really have to make such a big deal about it? They took Boss of the stream, and said apparently "He's out of control"? ( Don't really understand that part ). It just seemed very rude how they treated him for accidentally saying something. As someone who really likes Boss, I'm not sure I feel like supporting VG now. It's one thing to take him aside later and tell him he what he's not allowed to do. It's another thing to treat him like he's something disgusting that has to be disposed of. Overall I found it very rude. Heck, if you look close enough, there are many words that could be taken offensively. Oh my God is technically offensive to Christians, but you don't hear them talking **** to people who say it.
You must have missed the part where GiMR asked Boss to please not say '****' on the stream, and he responded immediately by making that joke. Redd said that Boss loves to troll but he took it too far. They were having an argument off-camera while Chillin and Pink Fresh played; that's what it was all about.
 

Mera Mera

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There are words like ********, which people could be upset by because you're using it in a negative way, and they have someone they care for who has some notable mental handicap. You might argue that they should probably know that you don't mean it that way, and so anyone who gets upset is just being sensitive. But even if that were valid (and I don't think that is) there's more. What if someone with a mental disability came to an event (be it to spectate or participate)? Or if you find that unlikely, what if someone wants to bring someone who has a mental disability? Do you think they'd be comfortable doing that? And don't you think it'd be upsetting to hear your predisposition used as a way to insult someone?

Then there's words like **** or probably any racial slur. These words can bring back bad memories that most people are trying to get away from. It's not really fair to call people not wanting to remember darker parts of their lives as being "too sensitive." And if you're questioning why I included racial slurs here, imagine being treated terribly/unfairly while repeated being called a racial slur. We want a welcoming environment. We don't want people to feel ****ty/uncomfortable just 'cause of the slang we use. In fact you could apply this concept to the term "********," as well, cause even if the person knows you don't mean it, it could remind them of a time someone used the term to upset them or someone they cared for.

Swear words are fine though... I guess little kids might come but it's not like it makes kids feel terrible as a result of hearing curse words... it might get them in trouble with their parents later I guess lol

The concept of having "banned words" seems illogical at first, but that's because the first thought is this is about being politically correct. But it's not. It's about letting people feel comfortable.

That said, I don't think that the public call out of boss on saying **** was fair. It's understandable for someone to be a bit naive about the above things ^ and how it might affect people. Boss should be criticized, but criticism should be done privately, not in front of multiple people. It's hard here because he's on stream. Probably the best thing the other commentator could have done is tern off the audio/not talk into the mic and try to quickly explain why they can't say that word and ask for a quick apology or something. I don't know. It's not easy to deal with because he's in front of a live audience. The irony here is that public criticism is another example of something that might make someone feel less comfortable in an environment. So while Boss made a mistake, he also kind of became a victim. It was probably uncomfortable for the other commentator as well, especially if he likes Boss. The whole thing just sucks.
 
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Linkale

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You must have missed the part where GiMR asked Boss to please not say '****' on the stream, and he responded immediately by making that joke. Redd said that Boss loves to troll but he took it too far. They were having an argument off-camera while Chillin and Pink Fresh played; that's what it was all about.
Oh, ok. I did miss that part, as I skipped to the part of the video linked. In that case, yes, he should have respected the rules.
 

9bit

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It's GIMR's stream so he can set any rules he wants, and he can kick off whomever he wants. I missed this whole event so I don't know how it went down, though.

On to the bigger topic of what we should say in the community... I'm sorta conflicted. I know, in my head, that we shouldn't use words like **** or gay or ********, etc. I know we shouldn't do that because we want to be welcoming and inclusive and maybe get a little respect from outsiders.

On the other hand I have this deep-seeded gut reaction (probably comes from my dad) to tell people to stop being such babies. And on some levels I know that's wrong. Some people have legitimate problems with words. But that just brings me right back to them being a baby. Like, get over it. It's a word. It probably doesn't help that nothing terrible has ever happened to me and I'm an upper-middle-class white male in the United States. My life could hardly get any better / easier.

So on this issue I tend to have to rely on everyone else's opinion and it seems like the better argument comes from the "don't say those words" camp, so I support that. I've been working on cutting back my "offensive" vocabulary around Smash Bros stuff, like here and streams. I'll still say dumb **** in front of my friends, but I at least try to keep a more sensitive projection of myself for Smash Bros.

So, uh I guess that's my thoughts.
 

Linkale

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There are words like ********, which people could be upset by because you're using it in a negative way, and they have someone they care for who has some notable mental handicap. You might argue that they should probably know that you don't mean it that way, and so anyone who gets upset is just being sensitive. But even if that were valid (and I don't think that is) there's more. What if someone with a mental disability came to an event (be it to spectate or participate). Or if you find that unlikely, what if someone wants to bring someone who has a mental disability? Do you think they'd be comfortable doing that? And don't you think it'd be upsetting to hear your predisposition used as a way to insult someone?

Then there's words like **** or probably any racial slur. These words can bring back bad memories that most people are trying to get away from. It's not really fair to call people not wanting to remember darker parts of their lives as being "too sensitive." And if you're questioning why I included racial slurs here, imagine being treated terribly/unfairly while repeated being called a racial slur. We want a welcoming environment. We don't want people to feel ****ty/uncomfortable just 'cause of the slang we use. In fact you could apply this concept to the term "********," as well, cause even if the person knows you don't mean it, it could remind them of a time someone used the term to upset them or someone they cared for.

Swear words are fine though... I guess little kids might come but it's not like it makes kids feel terrible as a result of hearing curse words... it might get them in trouble with their parents later I guess lol

The concept of having "banned words" seems illogical at first, but that's because the first thought is this is about being politically correct. But it's not. It's about letting people feel comfortable.

That said, I don't think that the public call out of boss on saying **** was fair. It's understandable for someone to be a bit naive about the above things ^ and how it might affect people. Boss should be criticized, but criticism should be done privately, not in front of multiple people. It's hard here because he's on stream. Probably the best thing the other commentator could have done is tern off the audio/not talk into the mic and try to quickly explain why they can't say that word and ask for a quick apology or something. I don't know. It's not easy to deal with because he's in front of a live audience. The irony here is that public criticism is another example of something that might make someone feel less comfortable in an environment. So while Boss made a mistake, he also kind of became a victim. It was probably uncomfortable for the other commentator as well, especially if he likes Boss. The whole thing just sucks.
I agree, the whole thing just sucks. Though what Boss said shouldn't have been said, if Boss didn't know any better, he should have been corrected off stream, or like you said, have the mic muted. It's really embarrassing for Boss, and I'm curious if he will show up for any other events. As a Boss fan, it upsets me that because this problem wasn't handled better, I might not see much more of Boss. I just wish this whole thing didn't happen.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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That said, I don't think that the public call out of boss on saying **** was fair. It's understandable for someone to be a bit naive about the above things ^ and how it might affect people. Boss should be criticized, but criticism should be done privately, not in front of multiple people. It's hard here because he's on stream. Probably the best thing the other commentator could have done is tern off the audio/not talk into the mic and try to quickly explain why they can't say that word and ask for a quick apology or something. I don't know. It's not easy to deal with because he's in front of a live audience. The irony here is that public criticism is another example of something that might make someone feel less comfortable in an environment. So while Boss made a mistake, he also kind of became a victim. It was probably uncomfortable for the other commentator as well, especially if he likes Boss. The whole thing just sucks.
Boss was on Stream at Bar Wars 2. Maybe GiMR isn't crazy about the guy right now but I don't think he'll face any consequences worse than being kicked off stream the time he said a couple of inappropriate things, and probably not allowed to commentate again.
 

Oracle

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Saying **** or any other offensive term like the n word can bring up painful experiences and memories. Anyone has the right to say what they want, but words like that never add anything significant to a conversation and almost always end up hurting someone.
 

9bit

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Boss was on Stream at Bar Wars 2. Maybe GiMR isn't crazy about the guy right now but I don't think he'll face any consequences worse than being kicked off stream the time he said a couple of inappropriate things, and probably not allowed to commentate again.
lmao how did that end up having my name on the quote but it's actually quoting BlackRainNFire
 

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To be honest people use that word so often on the internet I would never have noticed it if they hadn't brought attention to it.
 

kaizo13

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going into the specifics of which terms are or aren't appropriate won't be all that helpful. People have different opinions, therefore people are going to disagree.

the best action to take here is to leave commentating to...commentators. it's that simple. We didn't have this issue 6 years ago, but nowadays the mic gets passed around to just about anyone. Not only does that devalorize the art of commentating, but you are also handing out the privilege of speaking to up to thousands of listeners at a time....to someone that more than likely lacks the experience and/or the common sense to do so.

A position like that shouldn't be passed around so carelessly, more than likely there will be consequences....as showcased in this past incident
 
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JesseMcCloud

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It's GIMR's stream so he can set any rules he wants, and he can kick off whomever he wants. I missed this whole event so I don't know how it went down, though.

On to the bigger topic of what we should say in the community... I'm sorta conflicted. I know, in my head, that we shouldn't use words like **** or gay or ********, etc. I know we shouldn't do that because we want to be welcoming and inclusive and maybe get a little respect from outsiders.

On the other hand I have this deep-seeded gut reaction (probably comes from my dad) to tell people to stop being such babies. And on some levels I know that's wrong. Some people have legitimate problems with words. But that just brings me right back to them being a baby. Like, get over it. It's a word. It probably doesn't help that nothing terrible has ever happened to me and I'm an upper-middle-class white male in the United States. My life could hardly get any better / easier.

So on this issue I tend to have to rely on everyone else's opinion and it seems like the better argument comes from the "don't say those words" camp, so I support that. I've been working on cutting back my "offensive" vocabulary around Smash Bros stuff, like here and streams. I'll still say dumb **** in front of my friends, but I at least try to keep a more sensitive projection of myself for Smash Bros.

So, uh I guess that's my thoughts.
First off, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I know I have that same conflict at times, between wanting to respect others' feelings and at the same time wanting to grab them by the face and scream, "JUST MAN UP!!"
Myself, I'm 26, and rarely, if ever, resort to profanities. I was brought up that way, and hope others would extend the same courtesy (and as an English major, wish people would expand their own vocabularies.) Unfortunately, this is 2014...
 
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Terotrous

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going into the specifics of which words/terms are or aren't appropriate won't be all that helpful. People have different opinions, therefore people are going to disagree regardless.

the best action to take is to leave commentating to...commentators. Yes, it's that simple. We didn't have this issue 6 years ago, but now the mic gets passed around to anyone that pleases. Not only does that devalorize the art of commentating, but you are also handing out the privilege of speaking to up to thousands of listeners at a time....to someone that more than likely lacks the experience and/or the common sense to do so.

A position like that shouldn't be passed around so carelessly, more than likely there will be consequences.....as seen in this recent incident
I agree with this. When you let someone get on the mic, there's always a chance that they might say something inappropriate. It's really on the people producing the stream to control who they let commentate for them, because ultimately it's them it reflects upon.
 

SunJester

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In a public forum, if you have to ask, "Can I say this word?" you probably can't. Its not like these people live under a rock, they KNOW these words are hurtful to people, and they choose to use them anyways on a stream? Don't be surprised if you're called out on your bull****.

It's not a matter of censoring or sensitivity, its about being professional and inclusive.
 
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Roxas215

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It's GMIR stream so any rules he set that is what it is. But i don't see what the big deal was. Marvel/Sf streams curse and say stuff like that ALL THE TIME and the "Stream Monsters" love it.
 

Y-L

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On the other hand I have this deep-seeded gut reaction (probably comes from my dad) to tell people to stop being such babies. And on some levels I know that's wrong. Some people have legitimate problems with words. But that just brings me right back to them being a baby. Like, get over it. It's a word. It probably doesn't help that nothing terrible has ever happened to me and I'm an upper-middle-class white male in the United States. My life could hardly get any better / easier.
It's not really fair to tell people to just get over it when you have no experience with any of these situations at all =/ My brother is autistic and a close friend of mine has been molested as a child. Words can have a severe triggering effect on people who have these kind of experiences and it's not about "getting over it" because it haunts them every day and it's a very traumatic experience. You shouldn't judge others for things you haven't been through.

In order for the stream to keep a professional appearance and have some integrity, talking about ****, racism, self harm, or any other triggering idea should be completely unacceptable. Cursing is different, but I think that should be avoided as well for professionalism. There's so many different words to use so using the select few that are offensive is just narrow minded.
 

9bit

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It's not really fair to tell people to just get over it when you have no experience with any of these situations at all =/
That's what I was saying

Interestingly enough, for the record:
  • My uncle is mentally ********
  • 2 of my best friends are gay, one of which is Mexican and other is black
    • My slightly homophobic, slightly racist dad is not too happy about this one, let me tell you!
  • My cousin's ex-wife (we were friends while they were married) was ***** and molested quite a few times growing up
It's not that I have no experience with this stuff, I just have no personal experience, and that's exactly what I said in that post and why I said I relied on other peoples' reasoned arguments to decide for myself that I wouldn't say that kinda stuff.
 
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kaizo13

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even though i disapprove of Boss' actions....i do think it's unfair and unnecessary to have his name as the thread title or a video linked to the incident.

this is not the first time this has happened
 

Sol0ke

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Personally, I don't like throwing words like "****" and "********" around but I have mixed feelings on what happened to Boss on stream
 

batistabus

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People have different views about what should and shouldn't be allowed. What you should be sensitive about and what people should just learn to deal with.

Here's the bottom line. Do you want Smash to become an eSport? Do you want the community to grow? Do you want sponsors to take on players and help make tournaments even better? If your answer is yes, then just stop saying that ****. We don't care what you think SHOULD be okay...we can't convince you to be a more sensitive human, but if you care about the scene, just don't say it.
 

Renji64

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This reminds me a bit of the pg era of wwe for some reason. But there tons of less offensive words to get people's points across.
 

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"Wow, Pink Fresh just got annihilated."
"Squeak's been on a real hot streak, eradicating players from Loser's all night."
"AND HE GETS THE C4! ROLEX JUST SENT THAT MAN TO THE HEAVENS!"
"Hungrybox just busted out his gardening tools for Denti." (I love this one.)

English isn't so sparse that we'll find ourselves severely at a loss if we constrain ourselves to abstain from a few words that are offensive, insensitive or otherwise triggering and/or inappropriate.
 

Terotrous

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"Wow, Pink Fresh just got annihilated."
"Squeak's been on a real hot streak, eradicating players from Loser's all night."
"AND HE GETS THE C4! ROLEX JUST SENT THAT MAN TO THE HEAVENS!"
"Hungrybox just busted out his gardening tools for Denti." (I love this one.)

English isn't so sparse that we'll find ourselves severely at a loss if we constrain ourselves to abstain from a few words that are offensive, insensitive or otherwise triggering and/or inappropriate.
I think it's kind of interesting / weird that we allow "murder" and "suicide" but disallow "****". All are extremely traumatic for any family that's been affected by them.


Granted, if we wanted to ban Suicide, we'd have to rename like a million things in the smash lexicon. It's not Kirbycide anymore, it's KirbySD.
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

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I think it's kind of interesting / weird that we allow "murder" and "suicide" but disallow "****". All are extremely traumatic for any family that's been affected by them.


Granted, if we wanted to ban Suicide, we'd have to rename like a million things in the smash lexicon. It's not Kirbycide anymore, it's KirbySD.
Did you see me use either of those words in any of my examples?
 

Terotrous

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Did you see me use either of those words in any of my examples?
No, but you had annihilate and eradicate, which are both related to killing, yet both are considered okay. That's what made me think of other death-related terms that we typically don't consider offensive despite the fact that they can be really traumatic. Your post was about words that we should not use, so should those be on the list?

And I've definitely heard both of those terms used liberally on the VGBootcamp stream.
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

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No, but you had annihilate and eradicate, which are both related to killing, yet both are considered okay. That's what made me think of other death-related terms that we typically don't consider offensive despite the fact that they can be really traumatic.

And I've definitely heard both of those terms used liberally on the VGBootcamp stream.
That's quite a leap.

There are also priorities. Lame, dumb, gimp, and other words are all used liberally. Even the simple word 'bad' has etymological roots in a transphobic term from the Middle Ages. You're not really arguing against the disallowing of these terms by pointing out how problematic our language is, you're just pointing out that our language is very problematic. Because changes like this are slow to be adopted by the majority of the community (professionals like commentators, of course, already abstain from a lot of these words) I'd rather see it taken one at a time than not at all.

And frankly I'd much prefer to hear "That Falco just got DEVOURED" over 'Kirbycide'.
 

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It wasn't really intended as a slippery slope argument, though I guess I can see how you got that interpretation out of it. I think the main takeaway here is just that people have to be mindful of what they say and how it could be interpretted. I think a lot of what caused people to take offense to Boss's comment was not just the use of the word "****", but the specific way in which he used it.

Similarly the use of the word suicide could likely also be offensive if used in a very insensitive way.
 
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Terotrous

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In all honesty unless the topic at hand is in fact sexual assault, it is difficult to use the word '****' respectfully.
That's true, but there's obviously varying levels of offensiveness.

To be honest, though, the FGC probably needs to clean up its act in general. This is only the tip of the iceberg.
 

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Yes. And this is one instance where I see no need for Smash to emulate the FGC.
I was including Smash in the FGC. I'll admit I don't know if the Smash Community is better behaved in general but our stream monsters are certainly equally vulgar.
 

Terotrous

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You know, I'm just surprised I agreed with you on something, so I'll just leave it there. And I suppose Smash is pretty much part of the FGC now.
You've liked my posts on at least 5 separate occasions, btw. Even some of my thoughts on game balance, le gasp!


But yes, I actually think trying to clean up the stream chats might not be a bad first step. For example, the next time someone posts "5 / 10, would still bang" whenever a female player is playing, let's just ban them. Because as it stands, Boss is basically just saying what the stream wants to hear. It'll be hard to clean that up when the tone of the discussion remains so toxic.
 

standardtoaster

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You can do that sort of thing when you only have like 100 viewers. When you have 1000+ it's impossible to do so. Unfortunately, that's just the way stream chats are.
 
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