So, Boss...*cough*

[Rᴏb]

Now I'm gonna take an linguistic perspective here and talk about why "kirbycide" is fine: it's not "suicide," it's a "kirbycide," and any word ending with the -cide suffix literally means "to kill." That's where homicide (to kill the same), suicide (to kill the self), and regicide (to kill the king) all come from. Therefore, a kirbycide is to kill the kirby (way), ergo NOT the same as suicide. As for "gimp," that's an example of anthimeria: we've adapted the noun "gimp" (which refers a disabled person*) and applied it to a verb setting of "gimp" (where you impede on someone's recovery) and thereby drastically change what the word signifies to the point that it takes on an entirely new meaning. This is different from using "****" in reference to an action ("Sheik ***** Falcon") because it's the verb for the verb, and therefore there's a lesser degree of difference there that's subtly less acceptable. At best, it's a metaphor, and a poor one at that. Words like destroy, decimate, et al are similarly acceptable in that they're related to murder, but they're not murder (because again: you're not murdering). And I realize that you're not "literally" ****** people while you're playing smash (at least, I hope not), but again: it's a poor metaphor that degrades the trauma surrounding your source material by applying it to a frankly unsubstantial act in a video game—foster your creativity some! (read some of the suggestions in this thread again! There's some gold here)
*which I honestly wasn't even aware of: BDSM and photo manipulation programs came to mind first.

I don't really buy this. You're example of anthimeria doesn't hold up because "gimp" can already be used as a verb, it means: limp; hobble. You would be going from verb --> verb in this case as well as with the word "****" (which can also be seen as noun --> verb), and you aren't drastically changing the meaning of the prior word either, you're referencing the action of impeding in both senses. You can find a negative connotation in both words, so it doesn't really make sense to allow one negative word, but not another. Another example of this could be the use of the word "kill". The act of killing can be equally if not more traumatic than the act of ******, so why is there no controversy surrounding the use of that word?

"I killed you,"
"I ***** you,"

In my eyes, there is no difference between the use of either verb. You could argue that you are in fact killing in smash and not ******, but that's wrong, because no one dies in smash- they only get knocked-out. Whether either of these examples are poor metaphors doesn't really matter either, that's besides the point.

I agree with your other points though. I'm going to leave it at that because I can only see this conversation continuing it's circular path.

 

[Saito]

From the general public's opinion, death has no real consequence in a video game and therefore is ignored. Any loss of the player character is generalized as a death to most people.

No one gets ***** in video games for the most part.

If a **** is what actually happened in the game then people wouldn't complain about people saying the word ****; they would be complaining about the fact that there is **** in a video game.

--------------------------------------

The public happens to have a significant problem with **** because of the traumatization it causes to the victims.

Murder victims aren't really alive to be traumatized, and usually the family is just grief struck, but not mentally broken.

 

[Deleted member]

My girlfriend's cousin was *****; should I tell her to stop being sensitive about it?

if you actually care for her well-being, yes absolutely. she may actually take you at face value and make an attempt to change her outlook on the situation, which would be strictly beneficial for her.

or, if you hate her for whatever reason, you could coddle her, discourage any personal growth and healing from the incident, and watch her become unnecessarily upset and miserable for the rest of her life.

if you care about someone, you help them through it. over-sensitivity only makes you worse off.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

if you actually care for her well-being, yes absolutely. she may actually take you at face value and make an attempt to change her outlook on the situation, which would be strictly beneficial for her.

or, if you hate her for whatever reason, you could coddle her, discourage any personal growth and healing from the incident, and watch her become unnecessarily upset and miserable for the rest of her life.

if you care about someone, you help them through it. over-sensitivity only makes you worse off.

I see. And if someone should hurt himself and have a leg bone protruding from his skin, I should just tell him to simply shove it back in and quit crying about it? Preposterous.
You disgust me. This is where our conversation ends.

 

[Saito]

I see. And if someone should hurt himself and have a leg bone protruding from his skin, I should just tell him to simply shove it back in and quit crying about it? Preposterous.
You disgust me. This is where our conversation ends.

While I don't agree with Umbreon on his way of dealing with the situation, I don't think your analogy is proper.

It would be more like someone having a health problem and you telling them to get over it, and do something to make themselves healthier.

Umbreon has a point though. People should be trying to help others get through their depression over those incidents. However, they shouldn't do it so brashly like telling someone to just get over it.

It's fine to sympathize with them, some people need that mental support. However, you should be helping them get over it as well.
No point in living your whole life dominated by that word.

Whether or not the person can "get over it" depends on the individual though. You can try to push them all you want but not everyone can just "get over it"

With that being said, it's still not right to use the word because those people that can't "get over it" still exist and will be offended by it.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

While I don't agree with Umbreon on his way of dealing with the situation, I don't think your analogy is proper.

It would be more like someone having a health problem and you telling them to get over it, and do something to make themselves healthier.

Umbreon has a point though. People should be trying to help others get through their depression over those incidents. However, they shouldn't do it so brashly like telling someone to just get over it.

It's fine to sympathize with them, some people need that mental support. However, you should be helping them get over it as well.
No point in living your whole life dominated by that word.

Whether or not the person can "get over it" depends on the individual though. You can try to push them all you want but not everyone can just "get over it"

With that being said, it's still not right to use the word because those people that can't "get over it" still exist and will be offended by it.

This was my point. Both require a fair amount of sympathy, empathy, and emotional resolution to overcome. Emotional scars still take no less time to heal, and may never be completely gone, just like physical hurts/ailments. Some may even plague a person for the rest of his/her life.

 

[Deleted member]

I see. And if someone should hurt himself and have a leg bone protruding from his skin, I should just tell him to simply shove it back in and quit crying about it? Preposterous.
You disgust me. This is where our conversation ends.

Beautiful strawman. 10/10 refutation.

If someone has a protruding bone, you should help them remedy the situation. A more adequate comparison is you know the bone hurts, so you simply avoid talking about the bone and avoid using the word "bone" and instead refer to "dog treats" in a grocery store. Without seeking medical attention, just bleeding all over the floor. This is what you're doing when you avoid the term "****", it's dishonest and it helps no one.

For the third time, I'm not saying "get over it" literally, obviously employ tact and sympathy in your approach, but you should help them resolve the issue all the same instead of enabling the situation.

I'll give an example:

Your friend is fat and sensitive about it:

1. The wrong way - "People should accept you just the way you are."
2. The better way - "As a friend, you're fat and you should do something about it."
3. The ideal way - "Hey I want to go on a diet and start running every morning, want go in on it with me?"

It is respectful to assume that your peers share your mental capacity. Dancing around words and censoring yourself essentially asserts that you think of the other person as childish and unable to handle what you have to say in a mature manner. This is not the correct way to respect your peers, it is condescending at best.

 

[Saito]

For the third time, I'm not saying "get over it" literally, obviously employ tact and sympathy in your approach, but you should help them resolve the issue all the same instead of enabling the situation.

Considering how brash you are for the most part, I wouldn't be surprised that most people would think that you'd say something like "get over it"

 

[Deleted member]

I personally do actually. You can be quite forward, but open criticism generally requires a mutual understanding that each of you has the best interest of the other in mind and it need not be openly stated. I have many close friends that understand that I am brash, open, and quite honest, so it works for me personally.

And yes, I have told **** victims to "get over it" literally with that premise, but I understand that situations have context as this thread has stated many, many times.

 

[MLGF]

This topic is getting ****ing stupid.

First of all, I want to say boss blurting the N word on stream is horribly stupid. It's a term that he must know has tons of negative association and doing it on a stream is a **** idea.

I don't really care for a filter or words. I believe the meaning of words have different terms and definitions over time and in settings.
We see this with dark jokes referring to the holocaust, which refer to the deaths of tons, without much morality considered. Yet simply saying the word "****" is offensive. Alright, playing it safe on stream is the safe thing to do, I know. But banning those words within the FGC is extremely ludicrous.

But I get it, it's a term a lot of people are butthurt over and if we wanna look good then it's best be avoided so we look good.
But getting "murdered", "suicide", etc, etc are perfectly fine as they usually fit within the context of the game.
You jump off the stage and die trying to hit something, well you killed yourself. Why beat the bush?

And gimped would be a horrible one to get rid of. It's like a "no johns" level of terminology for Smashers. It's literally identified within our community and the original term has faded with obscurity, I don't even know many who remember the original term and its uses.

 

[Brother AJ]

I think this article is a really good resource on this issue:

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/12/political-correct-versus-being-inclusiv/

Excerpt:

Being politically correct is behaving in a way that will gain you approval from others. It makes you look good to those in power (voters, friends, parents, teachers, Mark Zuckerberg) so that they will think favorably of you.

Being inclusive is all about being a better person to other people. Being inclusive is a mindset. Once you have it in your mind that you want to make others feel more comfortable around you, you’ll find that you’ll be looking for ways to do so. It’s not about compromising your values; it’s about refining and developing values of empathy and concern for the other. You won’t feel uncomfortable censoring yourself from calling something “********;” in fact, you’ll feel uncomfortable when you hear others do so.

Words hurt people, there is no denying this. That whole "sticks and stone" stuff is actually complete nonsense. Being sensitive about words that harm others (especially slurs) is not irrational, it is empathetic and caring. Try and put yourself in the other person's shoes, and perhaps you can begin to understand.

 

[Deleted member]

Words do hurt, which is exactly why people need to censor themselves when in the company of people they don't know too well. If you want to use "****" when it's just you and your close friends and gaming buddies and you know for a fact that it doesn't make them feel uncomfortable, fine, but don't go saying it when there is a large crowd gathered around.

Walk a mile in somebody else's shoes before you start accusing them of being overly-sensitive. It is not your place to try and de-sensitize them. The respectful thing to do is to be safe rather than sorry. Show some self-control.

 

[Jynx]

Words do hurt, which is exactly why people need to censor themselves when in the company of people they don't know too well. If you want to use "****" when it's just you and your close friends and gaming buddies and you know for a fact that it doesn't make them feel uncomfortable, fine, but don't go saying it when there is a large crowd gathered around.

Walk a mile in somebody else's shoes before you start accusing them of being overly-sensitive. It is not your place to try and de-sensitize them. The respectful thing to do is to be safe rather than sorry. Show some self-control.

I agree with this. Except for the part of saying it in your close group. I personally would prefer if we got rid of it completely, because the more you say it in private, the more of an habituated issue it can get in public. Better to stop ASAP then to try to "limit" your use of it.

 

[Giga-Bowser]

For the sake of expanding the community, I think most of us would get behind not saying **** or using racial slurs. As the conversation has indicated, there is a somewhat slippery slope as to what other words and terms members should self or peer-censor.

It can and has reached a point in some internet communities where the members place "TRIGGER WARNING"'s before every bit of slightly controversial information, and go about conversing as if speaking to medicated children. I for one will continue to at least refer to the loss of a stock as a death or kill, even though that is actually something much more severe than ****. It's just a weird part of our language and culture which casualized violence (against men) in media to the point where it is the statuesque. I deal with that, because I'm an adult who begrudgingly accepts that kind of stuff within the context it is given. So too should those who wish to promote a more "progressive" vocabulary amongst the community when it comes to other allusions of violence.

 

[Jynx]

For the sake of expanding the community, I think most of us would get behind not saying **** or using racial slurs. As the conversation has indicated, there is a somewhat slippery slope as to what other words and terms members should self or peer-censor.

It can and has reached a point in some internet communities where the members place "TRIGGER WARNING"'s before every bit of slightly controversial information, and go about conversing as if speaking to medicated children. I for one will continue to at least refer to the loss of a stock as a death or kill, even though that is actually something much more severe than ****. It's just a weird part of our language and culture which casualized violence (against men) in media to the point where it is the statuesque. I deal with that, because I'm an adult who begrudgingly accepts that kind of stuff within the context it is given. So too should those who wish to promote a more "progressive" vocabulary amongst the community when it comes to other allusions of violence.

It's a bit different with death or kill. It's been a universally accepted act in almost all video games. It happens all the time in games because it can be tied with "good" acts such as fighting for your country in a war game. Or killing in the name of justice. It's a broad term.

**** is more serious in the video game world for a couple different reasons. One of them being that games almost never have **** in it. And if they do it's to add drama, effect, and plot. Not a commom act you just go around doing. It's pretty much just a story thing. It's not universally used in a ton of different games. And the other reason is because there's no good action tied with ****. It's 100% a terrible, awful thing that's connected to humans alone. We feel more personal about it because **** exists in our specific culture (minding a few other species) that we find is a terrible act against human rights.

Kill is different. If you say you killed that cockroach, no one will care. It's because the act of killing itself is so broad, that it really DOES depend on context before it becomes offensive or acceptable. **** is just a terrible act, in and of itself so when you say it, it's going to have a disgusting connotation attached to it all the time. Killing, suicide, death, and murder all have different contexts and situations pertaining to how individuals can feel about it.

Take suicide for example, it's terrible, for sure. But you feel sympathy most of the time for the suicide victim. And sure it's a terrible thing that happens but the people that are harmed feel grief and sadness. Not fear and anxiety from a potentially life scarring event like ****. I've experienced suicide, I know quite a few people who have. I also know a couple **** victims, and the **** victims show many, MANY more signs of having a damaged mentality than the ones who were close to suicide victims. Like I said, suicide pulls a feeling of sympathy most of the time. You do not feel sympathy for the rapist, because we are talking about the ones who commit the act. The person who committed ****, and the person who committed suicide are on 2 different moral levels still.

Don't forget that many **** cases are tied with a slow, terrible death. Half of it comes from the abuse the victims endure, during the **** rather than afterwards.

 

[Renji64]

Super politically correct brothers. I guess it is time to ban all offensive words as well.

 

[Phaiyte]

As a man that's experienced extremely traumatizing wrecks before, I find it extremely offensive when people use the word "wrecked, rekt, etc". Could someone please come up with a more polite word so that it doesn't hurt my fragile feelings

 

[SpiderJerusalem]

Ok I will admit I only read the first couple pages so forgive me if this post is irrelevant/has already been covered, but I think this is something worth noting.

A little anecdote:
I recently attended Northwest Majors 6 for pools (I got destroyed lmao), and since not many of my friends know about competitive Smash, I posted on Facebook a bit about the scene and suggested a couple matches to watch to get the feel of the competitive game, one of them being Mango vs. Taj SWS at Genesis 2.
One of my non-Smash friends commented "Actually, don't search for Mango vs Taj, because the commentary is inexcusably offensive[...]Not just that - blatant sexism, use of "********" as an insult, and even **** jokes. The racial slurs weren't even the worst thing."

From an outsiders perspective of the game, Smash might be seen as, to quote people in this thread, a barbaric community. There was just an article on the front page of Smashboards about "losing our way" and the author commented on the PC dialogue of commentators of Prog and D1 versus "we're all a little hard right now" and there's nothing wrong with being a bit crass, but we want to be inclusive. I personally am not triggered by words like "****," "********," "gay" etc., but some people are. Yeah, sometimes people need to stop being so uptight about words, but there's a line between "oh but sticks and stones" and just blatant disregard for peoples feelings. I personally am not going to call you out for using the term ****, but if you use it and people get mad at you, don't pretend like you don't know why.

I just think if we want more people to enjoy Smash, we should start being more inclusive, and that includes improving our vernacular.

This was covered in The Smash Brothers and I think it did a good job at expressing view points of people in the community affected by these words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZqiJgo7Nec&t=17m3s

 

[Sixth-Sense]

lol

I don't understand why any of you continue to argue. When your in a professional setting, don't use these words, when your with people you don't know or people that are new, do not use these words.

when your with your friends, **** any kind of filter

also, i have to agree with everything umbreon has said, context rules everything and coddling will just give the person a victim mentality and constantly live in the past

 

[SpiderJerusalem]

lol

I don't understand why any of you continue to argue. When your in a professional setting, don't use these words, when your with people you don't know or people that are new, do not use these words.

when your with your friends, **** any kind of filter

also, i have to agree with everything umbreon has said, context rules everything and coddling will just give the person a victim mentality and constantly live in the past

While I agree with most of this, I won't use certain words around even best friends because some are just offended by those terms

 

[turtletank]

While I agree with most of this, I won't use certain words around even best friends because some are just offended by those terms

Then use a custom filter.

I don't understand why any of you continue to argue. When your in a professional setting, don't use these words, when your with people you don't know or people that are new, do not use these words.

when your with your friends, **** any kind of filter

The truth.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally am not triggered by words like "****," "********," "gay" etc., but some people are.

Yeah sure, but if you were actually bothered by this stuff to such an extreme degree, wouldn't you like... maybe avoid the smash community? or fighters in general? or obnoxious 20-something year old males in general? What brand of narcissism do you have to sign up for to go into an established community and start making demands on the behavior of everyone else?

 

[SpiderJerusalem]

Yeah sure, but if you were actually bothered by this stuff to such an extreme degree, wouldn't you like... maybe avoid the smash community? or fighters in general? or obnoxious 20-something year old males in general? What brand of narcissism do you have to sign up for to go into an established community and start making demands on the behavior of everyone else?

So what you're saying is if you don't like those words, then don't play Smash competitively. Doesn't that seem wrong that we are preventing a wider audience from appreciating a game we love so much? Isn't that what we want? I don't think we need to be conforming to the most PC standards to succeed as a community but we should definitely be mindful and respectful of differences in mindsets.

 

[Deleted member]

You want to expand your in-group, but only to a point. Everyone brings some baggage to the table, and some people just don't fit.

This is a bit of a strawman, but let's reverse the example at least somewhat fairly. Let's say I go into a gardening club that is mostly housewives in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Do you really think that group would want someone like me in their gardening club? No, they wouldn't. And they might be exceedingly nice about it and tolerant, but realistically that's just not my in-group and honestly I shouldn't expect it to be.

I agree that it is good overall to be mindful of others, but only to a point. My issue is when we go from "considerate" to being a part of the problem.

 

[CyberZixx]

You want to expand your in-group, but only to a point. Everyone brings some baggage to the table, and some people just don't fit.

This is a bit of a strawman, but let's reverse the example at least somewhat fairly. Let's say I go into a gardening club that is mostly housewives in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Do you really think that group would want someone like me in their gardening club? No, they wouldn't. And they might be exceedingly nice about it and tolerant, but realistically that's just not my in-group and honestly I shouldn't expect it to be.

I agree that it is good overall to be mindful of others, but only to a point. My issue is when we go from "considerate" to being a part of the problem.

I see where you are coming from but there is a one major difference between those gardeners and what this thread is discussing. Not everyone will be besties but the reason some people may not fit in that gardening club is due to being very different people and thus got little in common. With using slurs and words as triggering as **** some people are being told "we don't like people like you and you do not belong here". I don't see how being considerate to others could be perceived as part of the problem.

 

[Deleted member]

it becomes a problem when you overstep the point of moderation by telling 90% of people how to behave for the sake of the other 10%. i would argue that if you get offended easily, you will have little in common with the average fighting game community. i don't think it's a perfect comparison, but the point stands.

 

[SpiderJerusalem]

You want to expand your in-group, but only to a point. Everyone brings some baggage to the table, and some people just don't fit.

That's to be expected, but that doesn't mean you can't be just generally respectful anyways. Even people who aren't specifically triggered by the word **** might still find it offensive because it downplays the traumatic effect of ****.

This is a bit of a strawman, but let's reverse the example at least somewhat fairly. Let's say I go into a gardening club that is mostly housewives in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Do you really think that group would want someone like me in their gardening club? No, they wouldn't. And they might be exceedingly nice about it and tolerant, but realistically that's just not my in-group and honestly I shouldn't expect it to be.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but that's a bit different. Most of the people interested in Smash are likely of the same age group as everybody currently in it, and thus have more in common and stand as peers. The only reason that you wouldn't fit into that gardening club is age difference, but it's not like you're being actively disrespected, especially if they are trying to be nice about it. It's not like they're actively using the term "green-thumb" which (for whatever reason) triggers an emotional response out of you.

I agree that it is good overall to be mindful of others, but only to a point. My issue is when we go from "considerate" to being a part of the problem.

it becomes a problem when you overstep the point of moderation by telling 90% of people how to behave for the sake of the other 10%. i would argue that if you get offended easily, you will have little in common with the average fighting game community. i don't think it's a perfect comparison, but the point stands.

People aren't being moderated at tournaments for saying the word "****" or "gay" because that's their right to say that, so that's not the issue at hand. What the topic was really talking about was commentators (like Boss). Whoever runs the streams has a right to tell their commentators what they can and can't say, just like any other business.

To address what you are saying though, nobody at tournaments is being kicked out for saying certain words, so there's no moderation. All that's being asked is to show some courtesy, it's not detrimental to you, nor is it impeding on your enjoyment of the game.

 

[CyberZixx]

it becomes a problem when you overstep the point of moderation by telling 90% of people how to behave for the sake of the other 10%. i would argue that if you get offended easily, you will have little in common with the average fighting game community. i don't think it's a perfect comparison, but the point stands.

We live in a society that oppresses that 10% on a systemic level and thus see these attitudes reflected everywhere. It is a problem greater than the smash community. You said yourself that you use smash to wind down and escape from work. What is a person in that 10% group has a passion for smash too but keeps hearing words like this. Words which take them forceably from that escape and remind of how society at large feels about them.

I think smash is awesome and the more people that can enjoy it while feeling safe the better.

 

[Deleted member]

I guess I have no refutation to either of your posts and they make good sense to me.

That said, I definitely feel "moderated" pretty extensively lately. I have the sneaking suspicion that a lot of people agree with me on this point.