So as a community should we try and voice our concerns?

[RODO]

Do we feel as if our concerns are going to be addressed or should we try and voice them to Nintendo? I hear reps are taking feedback but it didn't seem as if anyone was jumping on the chance to give them any. If we are going to suggest anything then it would have more weight if done as a group. Just wondering what the general consensus is on this.

 

[Senario]

Do we feel as if our concerns are going to be addressed or should we try and voice them to Nintendo? I hear reps are taking feedback but it didn't seem as if anyone was jumping on the chance to give them any. If we are going to suggest anything then it would have more weight if done as a group. Just wondering what the general consensus is on this.

Should we try to voice the concerns to Nintendo? Sure, there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism especially at this stage of the game where balancing is still in flux. I'm pretty sure Nintendo themselves are listening.

Are they going to be addressed? Tough to say, on the one hand Nintendo of America and the people at Nintendo Treehouse seem supportive and very interested in the feedback. On the other hand, Sakurai is resisting as hard as he can because he (falsely) assumes that a game with enough depth to be played competitively cannot be a party game. Which is really impossible seeing as how items and stage hazards are a thing. As well as four player free for all.

 

[xerui]

We absolutely need to voice our concerns. If we're loud enough and persistent enough, at least they may be heard. That's all we can hope for. After Smash 4 comes out, there likely won't be another Smash game for probably another ~7 years.

So the time is now.

 

[Fuqua]

how would you go about voicing our concerns? with a petition?

Also if any of you don't feel the need to voice any concerns please just stay away from this thread, it is our right to try and get our message to sakurai, if you disagree get your own message to him or do nothing at all, you spamming this thread with your nonsense is only going to make things unnecessarily difficult for us.

 

[RODO]

how would you go about voicing our concerns? with a petition?

Also if any of you don't feel the need to voice any concerns please just stay away from this thread, it is our right to try and get our message to sakurai, if you disagree get your own message to him or do nothing at all, you spamming this thread with your nonsense is only going to make things unnecessarily difficult for us.

I heard on reddit that reps were giving out an email for people to contact Nintendo reps. Don't know what that email is but if we could find out then I'd rather do that than a petition.

 

[Morbi]

Of course; if we do not voice our concerns, there is no way that they could ever be aware of those concerns. There is no harm in trying; you will always fail if you never try, or something to that effect.

 

[JayJay584]

We absolutely need to voice our concerns. If we're loud enough and persistent enough, at least they may be heard. That's all we can hope for. After Smash 4 comes out, there likely won't be another Smash game for probably another ~7 years.

So the time is now.

The game CAN be patched you know, so we won't necessarily have to wait until the next game for them to give it another shot to meet some standards. Honestly I don't have any concerns at this point in time with everything I've seen and heard about. Hey, I liked Brawl a lot, and if I can like Brawl I'm certain I'll love this.

 

[mimgrim]

Yes.

But do it ****ing smartly. Don't go in typing all caps, yelling, sounding condescending, acting superior, and blah blah blah. Basically don't be an ass about you concern, aka do the opposite of what I am currently sounding like in this post to get the point across.

 

[skstylez]

Honestly, just a few factors can be the difference of Evo/MLG or not. The game is very solid but my main concern is L-cancel/landing lag. That alone can eliminate matches playing like Zero vs Hungrybox.

If you find the email please share :}. I played it at best buy today, 90% of the game is -AMAZING-!

 

[Snakeyes]

It's worth a shot, but we need to agree on a short list of improvements before doing anything.

 

[mimgrim]

It's worth a shot, but we need to agree on a short list of improvements before doing anything.

My list is quite simple.

Less landing lag in general.
Bigger Dash Dance.
Dash Canceling, it would be awesome if you could cancel the initial dash as well instead of just the running animation.
Fix up the wonky DI, KB, and hitstun.

 

[DocterClocker]

I would most definitely sign off on a letter giving polite, reasonable feedback that will help nudge the game towards a more offensive playstyle. All of the suggestions listed here seem valid to me. This game doesn't need to be Melee 2.0, but having offense favored or at least equal to defense would go miles for making the game interesting to watch and play (at least for me). Good stuff!

 

[Reila]

But I am not concerned.

 

[mimgrim]

But I am not concerned.

I gotta agree with what Fuqua said;

Also if any of you don't feel the need to voice any concerns please just stay away from this thread, it is our right to try and get our message to sakurai, if you disagree get your own message to him or do nothing at all, you spamming this thread with your nonsense is only going to make things unnecessarily difficult for us.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

The rep I spoke with took notes on every complaint or suggestion given and specifically asked me for my opinion. She said the "recap notes" will be turned in but obviously she cannot promise that anything would be done. So, if the community really wanted to voice their thoughts, the best opportunity closed up at 5PM today. Nintendo gave us their attention and it's our own fault if we didn't take advantage of it. We can't even say we didn't know because they made sure people were aware that an officially sponsored Smashfest was going on.

 

[Fuqua]

The rep I spoke with took notes on every complaint or suggestion given and specifically asked me for my opinion. She said the "recap notes" will be turned in but obviously she cannot promise that anything would be done. So, if the community really wanted to voice their thoughts, the best opportunity closed up at 5PM today. Nintendo gave us their attention and it's our own fault if we didn't take advantage of it. We can't even say we didn't know because they made sure people were aware that an officially sponsored Smashfest was going on.

hmm that does suck if that is true. If we want to do something we really should be quick about doing it now.

 

[RODO]

So the general consensus is we should have

- L-cancelling or reduced landing lag in general
- Dash dancing
- less hit lag, easier to follow up throws

If a lot of people can agree to this then I will try to find a way to contact someone.

 

[PlasmaPuffball]

So the general consensus is we should have

- L-cancelling or reduced landing lag in general
- Dash dancing
- less hit lag, easier to follow up throws

If a lot of people can agree to this then I will try to find a way to contact someone.

I agree with all of it, though I think reducing landing lag universally is better than implementing L-Cancelling. But what about keeping momentum from dashing into jumps, because that appears to be absent as well. It would help a lot of the faster characters, like Falcon, Fox, and Sonic approach, gives more mobility, and I don't really see either casual or competitive hurting from it being in the game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So the general consensus is we should have

- L-cancelling or reduced landing lag in general
- Dash dancing
- less hit lag, easier to follow up throws

If a lot of people can agree to this then I will try to find a way to contact someone.

Those are the big ones for me. Count me in on this.

 

[MrPanic]

So the general consensus is we should have

- L-cancelling or reduced landing lag in general
- Dash dancing
- less hit lag, easier to follow up throws

If a lot of people can agree to this then I will try to find a way to contact someone.

No one asked for my opinion, but I'm giving it anyway.

- I agree on the reduced landing lag part, L-cancelling should stay out imo.
- No dash dancing, that mechanic should stay how it is now imo.
- I agree on less hit lag, though I feel that was just a problem with this particular build.

So in short, I support reduced landing lag and hit lag. I hope you guys can refrain from wanting all kinds of old mechanics back and can stay focused on the glaring issues, this game isn't supposed to be like Melee nor Brawl, it's only supposed to be good. If we wanna make a clear statement about this game, it better be right to the point.

 

[Snakeyes]

So the general consensus is we should have

- L-cancelling or reduced landing lag in general
- Dash dancing
- less hit lag, easier to follow up throws

If a lot of people can agree to this then I will try to find a way to contact someone.

I think we should leave L-canceling off the list and just stick with less landing lag. At the end of the day, Sakurai's the one who will have the final say on implementing any of these, and you can bet your ass the list will quickly end up in his trash can if the first suggestion he sees is an advanced technique that players would be forced to learn in order to compete at a higher level.

I second adding aerial momentum to the list.

 

[Boo Mansion]

I think voicing our opinions is worth a shot, especially considering the smash community has already accomplished so much. While I'm not sure if we influenced Nintendo's decision, we did get GameCube Controller compatibility for Smash 4. This and the whole invitational says to me that Nintendo is definitely listening.

As far as what needs to be improved upon, I agree that the game needs less aerial landing lag, or l-canceling. I personally wouldn't mind either as long as we got one of those. Fixing the dashing and throws would be great as well.

 

[Canuckduck]

I'm sure they're taking our concerns into consideration. I mean, this IS Nintendo, right?








RIGHT?

 

[Sasquatch180]

Something I'd think would be neat for Nintendo to do would be to create a public poll based on the feedback they've gathered.

 

[sunshinesan]

I approve of this topic.

But what about keeping momentum from dashing into jumps, because that appears to be absent as well. It would help a lot of the faster characters, like Falcon, Fox, and Sonic approach, gives more mobility, and I don't really see either casual or competitive hurting from it being in the game.

I think the momentum retention is vital and iconic to how some fast characters play and support this. (EDIT: Not to mention, it makes the game play "smoother" and less clunkier.) However, I will say when I played Melee as a kid, Falcon would turn me off so much because I would dash and run, and he would be half way around the world and got himself killed. It didn't irk me to the point that I hated the game, I mean, I loved the game, but casuals can be turned off by it. Now by no means every character must cater toward slow fingered casuals; diversity of style in the characters is important whether it is a for-fun party game or a competitive one.

As for suggestions (Most are already stated, but repeated suggestions should accentuate the importance of them.
-Dash dancing needs to come back, it's such a good tool to have and casuals by no means have to use it.
-Consider directional airdodge. We're not going to get this one. If we do, there will be landing lag, so WD will be out no matter what.
-Buff SDI. It improves interactivity between players. Also help casuals feel in control even when receiving hits.
-I don't see a problem with throws. A lot of fighting games have throws be the damage dealers rather than combo starters. The role of it can be anything as long as it's useful. What is important is that we can overall have a healthy combo game.
-Readjust blast zones.
-Nerf recoveries. Having KO's only be the ones where the characters are careening to the left, top, and right blastzones at 300 miles per hour reduces a dynamic of the game in which players can win by tactically outsmarting their opponents, something any player can appreciate and feel proud of if they can pull it off.
-Reduce landing lag. (Important one)
-C-stick should differentiate itself from a normal smash input by not be allowed to charge the smash. C-stick aerials should also not alter character momentum or act as directional inputs, but solely to use the aerial move, so a retreating fair shouldn't allow you to decelerate backwards because "forward" was pressed, or accidentally cause unwanted fast-falling. These things make the game deeper, makes the c-stick different from the regular inputs and are subtle enough that casuals aren't effected. If anything, casuals love c-stick spamming, to the point of a lot of them calling it cheap.

Can't think of more at the moment.

 

[RODO]

I approve of this topic.

I think the momentum retention is vital and iconic to how some fast characters play and support this. (EDIT: Not to mention, it makes the game play "smoother" and less clunkier.) However, I will say when I played Melee as a kid, Falcon would turn me off so much because I would dash and run, and he would be half way around the world and got himself killed. It didn't irk me to the point that I hated the game, I mean, I loved the game, but casuals can be turned off by it. Now by no means every character must cater toward slow fingered casuals; diversity of style in the characters is important whether it is a for-fun party game or a competitive one.

As for suggestions (Most are already stated, but repeated suggestions should accentuate the importance of them.
-Dash dancing needs to come back, it's such a good tool to have and casuals by no means have to use it.
-Consider directional airdodge. We're not going to get this one. If we do, there will be landing lag, so WD will be out no matter what.
-Buff SDI. It improves interactivity between players. Also help casuals feel in control even when receiving hits.
-I don't see a problem with throws. A lot of fighting games have throws be the damage dealers rather than combo starters. The role of it can be anything as long as it's useful. What is important is that we can overall have a healthy combo game.
-Readjust blast zones.
-Nerf recoveries. Having KO's only be the ones where the characters are careening to the left, top, and right blastzones at 300 miles per hour reduces a dynamic of the game in which players can win by tactically outsmarting their opponents, something any player can appreciate and feel proud of if they can pull it off.
-Reduce landing lag. (Important one)
-C-stick should differentiate itself from a normal smash input by not be allowed to charge the smash. C-stick aerials should also not alter character momentum or act as directional inputs, but solely to use the aerial move, so a retreating fair shouldn't allow you to decelerate backwards because "forward" was pressed, or accidentally cause unwanted fast-falling. These things make the game deeper, makes the c-stick different from the regular inputs and are subtle enough that casuals aren't effected. If anything, casuals love c-stick spamming, to the point of a lot of them calling it cheap.

Can't think of more at the moment.

Maybe blast zones could be a thing. SDI as well

 

[PlasmaPuffball]

I agree with the SDI and blast zones as well, moreso with SDI. I wonder if that was more to do with the build being a demo and unfinished/wonky though. It didn't even seem like that was much DI period.

 

[RODO]

I'll probably wait like a day or two longer so we can get more feedback before I try and do anything.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

Landing lag is the big one for me. Other than that the game is looking great! I loved melee and brawl (and 64) and smash 4 is looking like a good mixture of the two.

 

[RODO]

I have an idea but I'm going to go to reddit first to try and get more people on board.

 

[Neoleo21]

So the general consensus is we should have

- L-cancelling or reduced landing lag in general
- Dash dancing
- less hit lag, easier to follow up throws

If a lot of people can agree to this then I will try to find a way to contact someone.

Those three aspects are literally the only complaints that I have with this game, and if they are fixed/implemented I will absolutely adore this game, please everyone I think these are the most important problems with the game and if we express our concern about these specific problems primarily, something along the line is going to get to sakurai ( if many people express criticism on select aspects of the game, I think even the prideful Sakurai would listen in his progress to make the balanced game between melee and brawl) (but don't be afraid to express concerns on smaller issues/other issues)

 

[RODO]

I'm thinking we should just take to miiverse and post our concerns there. Maybe if other people see it then it will snowball.

 

[Renji64]

It would be great if there was one legit way we can all send the same message. For smash 4 to be fun for me a guy who doesn't like brawl. Less floalty, less landing lag and dash dancing it doesn't have to be a melee 2.0 just meet people half way at least it would be amazing to have one game people general enjoy.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dash dancing would be a useless addition. You just break out into a full run so fast in this game; if you want to put yourself into a position where you might break out into a full run at any time in smash 4, just let go of the stick completely since "standing there" is such a state (ground mobility is great in smash 4 in terms of both acceleration and velocity). I'm not just saying this to be negative; I'm telling you this because Sakurai knows this and because when you suggest something like this you make all of your suggestions seem less worthwhile.

Of course, I don't think this kind of thing is necessary at all. They surely know that throws on average are underpowered in that build, they are probably working on landing lag with it being noted that it was on average actually a lot faster than Brawl (just don't play Marth; he was nerfed), and with SDI gone, why do we actually want less hitlag since I don't see how a little more window to react with DI hurts the game?

More importantly, you don't have to agree with any of my assessments here to know that this kind of effort isn't meaningful. Prog's interview tells us that NoA is watching the competitive community quite closely, and they've probably already read the topics giving feedback on the demo on this forum already. Sending NoA a message telling them what they can and have already read does not seem like a good use of community effort to me.

 

[RODO]

Dash dancing would be a useless addition. You just break out into a full run so fast in this game; if you want to put yourself into a position where you might break out into a full run at any time in smash 4, just let go of the stick completely since "standing there" is such a state (ground mobility is great in smash 4 in terms of both acceleration and velocity). I'm not just saying this to be negative; I'm telling you this because Sakurai knows this and because when you suggest something like this you make all of your suggestions seem less worthwhile.

Of course, I don't think this kind of thing is necessary at all. They surely know that throws on average are underpowered in that build, they are probably working on landing lag with it being noted that it was on average actually a lot faster than Brawl (just don't play Marth; he was nerfed), and with SDI gone, why do we actually want less hitlag since I don't see how a little more window to react with DI hurts the game?

More importantly, you don't have to agree with any of my assessments here to know that this kind of effort isn't meaningful. Prog's interview tells us that NoA is watching the competitive community quite closely, and they've probably already read the topics giving feedback on the demo on this forum already. Sending NoA a message telling them what they can and have already read does not seem like a good use of community effort to me.

The game is BEGGING for dash dancing. I've seen so many videos where people tried to turn around out of a dash like they expected it to be there. What's useless about having more control over your character? How useless was it in melee? That to me, after having played the demo, was the one thing that seemed off about the whole thing. And if I had to pick just one thing to be added to the game then it would probably be that. Idk how that makes our suggestions less worthwhile just because we want more control over our characters.

 

[mimgrim]

Dash dancing would be a useless addition. You just break out into a full run so fast in this game; if you want to put yourself into a position where you might break out into a full run at any time in smash 4, just let go of the stick completely since "standing there" is such a state (ground mobility is great in smash 4 in terms of both acceleration and velocity). I'm not just saying this to be negative; I'm telling you this because Sakurai knows this and because when you suggest something like this you make all of your suggestions seem less worthwhile.

I feel you are underestimating how Dash Dancing is used. It's more of a psychological tool then anything else. You use it to confused your opponent, bait them out, pressure theme, control the stage and stay a constant threat to them. You can break out of a full run in Melee and Project M by crouching and DDing still remains potent in those 2 games.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think dash dancing's psychological power is overstated greatly. When I play Melee, I like to just stand there not moving for a moment especially against opponents who input tons of stuff quickly since "do nothing" is IMO the strongest mindgame of them all; I'm giving you zero information about my future intentions since I'm not even doing anything in the present! When I see someone dash dancing, I mostly just treat them like they're standing still but rule out actions such as taking a small step forward and tilting since that's hard to do while dash dancing so they're really trading the ability to break out toward me slightly faster for the ability to use slower walking and spacing strats which I don't even see as a good trade for them. Against players who are unfamiliar with it, no doubt dash dancing can really spook them, but it's not much of a psychological weapon if the other side understands what it is.

 

[LancerStaff]

If you have concerns, voice them. Just don't be a jerk or tell them to make it Melee 2, they'll never listen if you do.

Personally, I want faster fastfalls and to fix the funky knockback. (Don't fix SDI! SDI just makes many moves worthless, like the Links' Fsmashes and Luigi's dash attack.) But I don't care a whole lot about the former, and the later will get fixed anyway.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I agree with this thread.

- Dash dancing shouldn't have really been removed. It has good competitive applications and is certainly not a difficult move to pull off even for casuals.
- Reduced landing lag would speed the game up in general and allow for more combos and interesting setups. By doing it this way, everybody benefits, and players aren't faced with a competitive barrier in order to reap the reward (i,e: L-cancelling).
- Better follow-ups to grabs would also be appreciated.

Those are the three primary points I want to see in any petition or notice to Nintendo, and I fully support their inclusion.

 

[Joe73191]

A small list of improvements would look something like this:

- Please allow the momentum from running to transfer into the jump, longer dash dancing, and slightly faster fall speeds.
- Please reduce the lag when aerial attacks connect and when landing back on the ground while using an aerial attack.
- Finally please reduce the lag after throwing an opponent.

I think we ought voice our concerns in any constructive way possible. Be polite and agreeable. Do not be loud and condescending. Be the kind person others would want to listen to. Be the kind of person others would be proud to say they talked to and spent time with.