So about this new Falco Lazer Ownage...

[usea]

Umm... "real" fighting games do ban infinites that are full life to death off of a single opening. Well, more like they ban entire characters because then they'd be deemed too god, but the Smash kiddies don't wanna ban entire characters, so they just ban infinites.

This is untrue. Infinites aren't banned, there is nothing wrong with infinite combos, even ones that are easy to do. Something should only be banned if it throws off the balance to an extreme extent. There's absolutely no evidence of that so far.

And you're right, banning the character or stage is a FAR better solution that telling a player they can't play a certain way and drawing arbitrary lines.

Infinite combos aren't (and shouldn't be) banned. Stalling to gain an advantage (running away, turtling, etc) shouldn't be banned. Unnecessary stalling that serves no competitive purpose is banned.

Just wait. Hopefully reasonable people will make their voices heard once the time comes (not anytime soon).

 

[Team Giza]

1 missed tech = Death (though it requires a wall). So all Falco has to do is counterpick walled stages and he'll auto-win off one single missed tech. Remember, this isn't a "Don't get caught up next to a wall"-combo, this is "Anywhere on the stage as long as the Falco is facing the right direction"-combo.

Thats why we always tech against Falco. This shouldn't be banned.

 

[The Great Leon]

You can probably tech or DI out. If not, then walled stages will probably get banned, or at least character specific stage bans. "Limiting" it to X amount of shots is stupid. Anyone who thinks thats a viable answer needs to read sirlin's "play to win" because you obviously haven't. And you can't ban Falco just because of this stupid trick that will never happen when it matters.

 

[nice1]

i wanna see this done to a human player

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

If you're dumb enough to get caught by that, you shouldn't be playing in tournaments. Besides, we don't know if that's real or not. What if the person playing Sheik just never touched the controller after the combo started?

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

Here's the thing about infinites in fighting game communities. They are rarely banned, 'cause they aren't usually easy to pull off for the entire span of the match/lifebar. One exception I can think of is the dead body infinite in MvC2. This got a soft ban. It could be done, but only for a few repetitions; long enough for character repositioning before the next character jumped in. Any further resulted in disqualification. Why? Because it was fairly easy to do and could be done to stall the match until the end, and take the victory by time.

The same could, in theory, happen here. From the looks of it, even in a real match, one could reflexively fire a laser upon someone's landing. If they don't tech, they're in infinite land. If they don't, they probably just tech'd forward, and now Falco's in a bad position, still in recovery from firing the laser (depending on distance, the laser may or may not pass through the recovering opponent). Here lies the mindgame. Does Falco assume that they fail their tech, or play it safe?

The advantage is still clearly Falco, though, as the chances of doom happening to him for making the mistake of expecting a failed tech are far lower than if the opponent did miss their tech. It's something that will take a considerable amount of real game time to figure out whether it deserves even a soft ban, though. I can't see this having a full ban, but perhaps a maximum number of reps before they're let go, if it proves to be too overpowering.

 

[NastyMcMean]

daging, i have a question, if you tech is it possible to still be caught in this?

 

[Ojanya]

You can't say a certain amount of shots. The Falco could easily say "OMG NO I ONLY SHOT YOU 4 TIMES!" Counterpick sounds fine to me.

 

[Goldkirby]

This is untrue. Infinites aren't banned, there is nothing wrong with infinite combos, even ones that are easy to do. Something should only be banned if it throws off the balance to an extreme extent. There's absolutely no evidence of that so far.

And you're right, banning the character or stage is a FAR better solution that telling a player they can't play a certain way and drawing arbitrary lines.

Infinite combos aren't (and shouldn't be) banned. Stalling to gain an advantage (running away, turtling, etc) shouldn't be banned. Unnecessary stalling that serves no competitive purpose is banned.

Just wait. Hopefully reasonable people will make their voices heard once the time comes (not anytime soon).

Yes! A voice of reason!

Thank you.

 

[WeltallZero]

I just tried this on both Shadow Moses and a custom stage. I was able to pull this off rather easily, I'm afraid. It does seem quite broken. You can do it at any percentage above what is show, and it would seem, to any character (I tried Sheik like on the video, but was able to infinite Zelda and Bowser just as well. Tell me if you want me to try it on anyone else). What's worse, even though you need a wall to truly infinite, if there's a large stretch of platform behind your opponent, you can inflict a hefty amount of damage until he/she reaches the edge, as the laser has very little knockback (shooting Sheik all the way over to the other side of Final Destination took more than 10 shots and around 100% damage).

Also, there seems to be no way out of it for the receiving player. Indeed, DI doesn't work, nor does shielding/air dodging. Any more ideas?

Edit: Ouch, there seems to be a BIGGER problem. On stages such as Bridge of Eldin, Flat Zone 2 and such, you can shoot your opponent right off the stage.

 

[Dagingabreadman]

daging, i have a question, if you tech is it possible to still be caught in this?

Nope, cuz you have incincibility frames until your back up on two feet. On two feet falco cannot lazer infinite

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

How easy was it to get your opponent caught in it? Did you notice any attack that leads smoothly into the laser lock? A video would be ideal.

 

[WeltallZero]

How easy was it to get your opponent caught in it? Did you notice any attack that leads smoothly into the laser lock?

I'm playing by myself right now. On a untouched 2P controller, initiating the combo is trivial. There's a pretty large window of opportunity, basically if your laser hits the opponent during his/her bouncing off the ground animation (over half a sec I'd say), you're set. After that, you just mash B.

There's no attack that combos into the laser lock, as you need to knock your opponent high enough that you recover and shoot, and he/she could always air recover or tech.

Also, since this thread is fas, I'm posting my edit to my post above, which is bad news

"Ouch, there seems to be a BIGGER problem. On stages such as Bridge of Eldin, Flat Zone 2 and such, you can simply shoot your opponent right off the stage for a guaranteed KO."

 

[freeman123]

If you havent already seen it, look here.
I've heard many people call for stages with walls to be banned. They also been called upon for ban because some characters A combos can trap against walls. But I think a better soultion would be one similar to the tournament rules concerning Ness and Safron City in SSB64.
I think that if one player chooses a character capable of utilising these comboes, the second player should have the option of calling for a different stage.
Thats just what I think. After all, it would be a shame to see some of these breath taking stages not tournament legal because a few characters can abuse it.

Falco's laser is cheap even without walls. The fact that he can shoot you from one side of a stage to the other, and there's nothing you can do about it, is ridiculous. The best solution is for Nintendo to release a downloadable patch that fixes these problems.

 

[tect]

you don't just have to miss a tech. you also have to be bouncing when you're hit by the first laser. mm'i'rite?

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

You can't say a certain amount of shots. The Falco could easily say "OMG NO I ONLY SHOT YOU 4 TIMES!" Counterpick sounds fine to me.

It'd of course have to be very loose. I wouldn't say number of shots, but time taken. You can do it for a short while, but too long (7-10 seconds? Who knows. It'll be decided by the powers that be), and you get a warning/DQ. Same thing happens in MvC2 w/ DBIs. They get warnings if they keep it up too long.

 

[freeman123]

"Ouch, there seems to be a BIGGER problem. On stages such as Bridge of Eldin, Flat Zone 2 and such, you can simply shoot your opponent right off the stage for a guaranteed KO."

That's ridiculous. There have been games where characters ended up being banned because of things like this. I think that Falco will be banned if Nintendo doesn't fix this.

This is really going to be annoying online. I can already see people picking Falco and a stage he can abuse every single game.

On the plus side, if people start doing it online a whole lot more people will become aware of it. Which means a lot more people will complain about it, and eventually Nintendo will fix it.

 

[TempestFunk]

@Freeman: Online is 4 player only looks like... and if someone drops then they're replaced with computers, so I doubt that will be a problem online as the other players will disrupt the 'combo', and hopefully you trust the people on your friend list not to use this all the time.

Is this really a big deal tho? in melee fox's shine spike could kill at low percents, at least you have to be somewhat damaged before this can happen to someone.

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

Hold your horses there, Nostradomus. Has anyone in this topic heard of anyone doing this on a human opponent? I admit, if it's a broken tactic, it should be banned, but let's not jump to conclusions about how broken it is. I haven't seen many techs, missed or otherwise, and I've been keeping pretty up to date with new vids. Teching is much rarer now, and I believe that setting up a laser lock will be VERY VERY difficult, at least as hard as the IC freeze glitch in Melee.

Things are fair until they're proven broken. We have naught but speculation at this point.

 

[WeltallZero]

Actually, I agree. It needs to be tested with human opponents before we know if it's really balance-breaking.

 

[Gea]

At any rate, you DON'T BAN BASED ON NUMBER OF HITS. It is TIME dependant. You say if its clearly intentional "and over say, three seconds" you are DQ'd. If it is enforced, as Wobbling was in MANY places, you won't see people try it. Trust me, the risk of DQ over a second is not worth doing.

 

[WeltallZero]

you don't just have to miss a tech. you also have to be bouncing when you're hit by the first laser. mm'i'rite?

That's correct. There's a window of opportunity there of about half a sec. Considering the opponent has to predict you not air-recovering AND whiffing your tech, it shouldn't be THAT easy to pull off against humans. Time will tell.

Oh, and if anything else, people worried about stages being banned because of having walls should rest assured. Since on non-walled, continuous floor stages it's even worse.

 

[Hitaku]

Thought I would add this, remember that after I found this Tech I said it seemed to be not possible on some characters. I have yet to be able to lock Toon Link in it. I have yet to go back and test it, but its important to know it only works on some characters (though probably a good chunk).

 

[gnosis]

Unnecessary stalling that serves no competitive purpose is banned.

Does such a thing even exist? The only instance I can imagine is if you're behind and you stall out the match just for it to take forever (something like Fox running away on Temple when he's behind), but that's pretty arguable that it serves no competitive purpose.

Stalling tactics that are banned are stalling tactics that draw out the match and make it impossible or almost impossible for the opponent to catch up. So they're banned partly because it can be game breaking, and partly because tournaments don't have time for 8 minute matches.

 

[TrueRedemption]

For at least the two of you who are doing some work on this, could you guys have a friend come over or manage to teach your little sister to spam laser or something? All this shenanigans based off of something so far only done to untouched controllers is getting sickening. If logical explanation won't calm people down one of you step up and at least find out if someone getting up from having fallen is hit if they can be locked, or even an example of how hard/easy this is to pull off on a computer or in training mode... if its as big an issue as people are making it then it should be easy to do to a computer as well. Just don't bad when you've tried for a few hours with no success and some people said told you so.

 

[Hitaku]

For at least the two of you who are doing some work on this, could you guys have a friend come over or manage to teach your little sister to spam laser or something? All this shenanigans based off of something so far only done to untouched controllers is getting sickening. If logical explanation won't calm people down one of you step up and at least find out if someone getting up from having fallen is hit if they can be locked, or even an example of how hard/easy this is to pull off on a computer or in training mode... if its as big an issue as people are making it then it should be easy to do to a computer as well. Just don't bad when you've tried for a few hours with no success and some people said told you so.

I have done it to a friend playing Snake, he was not able to get out of it. It does need to be someone who misses a tech and bounces. I don't know what other information you are looking for. Yes its hard to predict, yes people don't miss many techs anymore so its rare, but it can still happen.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Just in regard to how well it can be manipulated. We already know a tech has to be missed, but other than that, what kind of influences can falco add to increase the chance of it happening? I feel as though most missed techs would usually leave the character on his back rather than his front, if that is still in fact a necessary part of pulling it off. I just have trouble seeing any type of chain into this infinite. The video just shows the UpSmash, if a player had been controlling, wiggling jumping attacking all sorts of things would have kept him from falling flat, so what moves of falco's can produce the situation, how easy is it to prevent by various actions and how easy is it for falco to get from the setup attack that knocks flat to a position able to laser lock?

 

[freeman123]

TempestFunk
@Freeman: Online is 4 player only looks like... and if someone drops then they're replaced with computers, so I doubt that will be a problem online as the other players will disrupt the 'combo'

Yeah, but it'll still happen. There will be times when the other players are preoccupied on the other side of the stage.

TempestFunk
and hopefully you trust the people on your friend list not to use this all the time.

Not really. I plan on exchanging friend codes with people from Smashboards and other sites, not just people I know. So I don't know what they're going to do. Not only that, but I don't like telling people what they can't do. It makes me feel like a scrub. It reminds me of people who play Mario Kart DS that say "I'll race you, but no snaking."

 

[Lightning Ice]

Hardly any stages have walls, you have to miss a tech, and I can't imagine Falco having very many moves that will force you to tech and still give the you enough time to start shooting.

 

[NastyMcMean]

Nope, cuz you have incincibility frames until your back up on two feet. On two feet falco cannot lazer infinite

well, all i know is that this will make it impossible for me too get caught, btw thanks for the response

 

[Nightcloud]

Ban the use of people doing it, X amount of shots allowed, more than that is a forfit.

That is the most ******** thing i have ever heard..how are u gonna go about making someone shoot thier laser X amount times.. I lol'ed thats hilarious.

 

[DRaGZ]

Jeez...I guess the only way to remedy this competitively will be to ban all stages with walls...which I guess was going to happen anyway.

You could probably ban it from tournament, but I feel like it would happen on accident so often...

 

[AustiniusRex]

i wish all falco players good luck. Only a few will have an eye fine enough to know when to start the laser combo. Those who do it at the wrong time will be ****ed from the opening their eagerness to be cheap has created. I'm honestly not at all worried about this. If i let myself get stuck in this laser lock, i deserve the damage. That falco better hope he kills me after that though, I don't think I'd mind playing alittle cheap too after a stunt like that was pulled on me.

 

[KidArtist]

I know, seriously, who'd ever get caught in that?

 

[felix45]

somehow I get the feeling brawl is going to be broken as **** like SSB64 was....

 

[~GregDang!~]

Why are we talking about banning stages and moves. Most or some of us haven't even played the game yet. As long it is not used for stalling, then it's legal. By the way the Wobbles is not banned anymore for highly competitive play and most people don't care about it. If you get caught in it, then you get caught in it. You gotta do whatever to win.

 

[flyingmule]

The Falco laser isn't that big of a problem. You can prevent yourself from getting stuck in it in the first, place, and it only works on levels that are completely flat, and only on the portions that have ground, meaning it auto expires once you reach the edge. Yeah, it sucks, and it should be patched or fixed if Nintendo were at all competent (LOL), but as it stands now it is an avoidable nightmare.

 

[Spellman]

Yeah, I can't exactly say I'd ban it however cheap it may seem. It's not like I can't pick Falco and learn it or anything if I hate being trounced by it a that much. It's annoying and all, but I'm pretty sure in tournaments people take turns choosing characters, so if I see my opponent pick Falco, I can either face him with my main or play a better Falco.

I agree that as long as you're smart enough to not fall into the trap, you'll be fine. I don't think he'd be able to pull it off if Sheik was running and dodging around everywhere, just wouldn't happen.

 

[Yuna]

You're all forgetting one important thing: You don't even have to mess up a tech to eat this. You could just trip (which can even happen when you're in the air).

 

[Dogenzaka]

First, I'd like to say you tournamentfegs take the fun out of these games by banning natural elements.

Second, LOL at Falco's blaster combo!
I do however think that that should not be allowed.