So about this new Falco Lazer Ownage...

[Dagingabreadman]

If you havent already seen it, look here.
I've heard many people call for stages with walls to be banned. They also been called upon for ban because some characters A combos can trap against walls. But I think a better soultion would be one similar to the tournament rules concerning Ness and Safron City in SSB64.
I think that if one player chooses a character capable of utilising these comboes, the second player should have the option of calling for a different stage.
Thats just what I think. After all, it would be a shame to see some of these breath taking stages not tournament legal because a few characters can abuse it.

 

[UsernameLink]

Ban the use of people doing it, X amount of shots allowed, more than that is a forfit.

 

[Lemon Drop]

The chances of being caught in it are you don't touch the controller at all. I mean you notice the person never DI'd at all.

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

If you are stupid enough to get caught in this you deserve to be infinity'd.

 

[Tanea]

i was going to say that banning astage like will be hard cause you don't need astage with a wall but just a stage where you can be backed up into a corner like corneria and the pokemon stadium satges

 

[sv3]

Before we start talking about banning stages and such, maybe we should wait to see multiple videos in which this happens to actual people while seriously playing and not against a training dummy

 

[Dagingabreadman]

The chances of being caught in it are you don't touch the controller at all. I mean you notice the person never DI'd at all.

Where are you going to DI to?

its falcos 'stun' gun

 

[Yuna]

The chances of being caught in it are you don't touch the controller at all. I mean you notice the person never DI'd at all.

Since when could you DI when being hit by a set-knockback move that doesn't launch you while on the ground.

 

[err]

wait till people start owning with this technique in teams.. blech

lets call it at 3-5 shots, they do it again and they lose the match

 

[Lemon Drop]

You have to be hit up into the air and fall into the laser. Watch the videos.

 

[IronGorilla]

This is why teching is important.

 

[TrueRedemption]

How often is a player serious enough to go to tournaments and know some rule made about the laser spam ALSO bad enough to be caught laying face down on the platform not doing anything? First off the fall probably coulda been teched, but for the sake of discussion you do find yourself in that position, odds are your frantically getting up and attempting to respond to whatever is coming next. For the laser lock to start realistically the falco player would need to be on the ground the same time as you, slightly to the side, looking in your direction, and without lag. There is no move that knocks opponents unavoidably on their stomach to set this up. The falco player will most likely be trying to punish you for missing the tech, with the start of a combo or something. The window of opportunity is too small and the conditions too weird to warrant even this much excitement about it. This isn't a matter of can you break it, who cares if you can't, its a matter of doubt that theres a possible setup.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

The chances of this happening competetivly is slim. First you have to mess up your DI on whatever attack it was that knocked you over then you have to mess up the tech on your initial fall (watch the vid, you have to hit the ground before you can be laser locked). This on top of needing a solid object to corner someone with for the infinite really makes this an unlikely event between two good players.

 

[Goober]

Why is everyone saying that you have to be stupid to have this work on you? It looks like the opening occurs whenever someone misses a tech. The repeated upsmashes are just for convenience of making the video (at least that's how I saw it). How many people here can honestly say they've never missed a tech?

 

[cultofrubik]

Well put Goober. This is like Wobble (only much easier), and we ban that. So, bye. =/

The point is that this CAN happen in a match. With the way this game works, it just isn't right. Infinites are infinites. Plain and simple. Unless they require two people, this is just dumb. =/

I mean, it's funny and all, but for competitive play, lets just say you happened to get stuck there...

 

[Goldkirby]

Why is everyone saying that you have to be stupid to have this work on you? It looks like the opening occurs whenever someone misses a tech. The repeated upsmashes are just for convenience of making the video (at least that's how I saw it). How many people here can honestly say they've never missed a tech?

FINALLY! Someone noticed the same thing I did. Plus now that people know of this, they can try to look out for missed techs, if they see one, start pressing b. I don't think that would be too hard. However, I say we allow it for a while and see how much it effects the metagame. Banning infinites is stupid, no other REAL fighting games try to ban infinites. If you smash kiddies want to be taken seriously, then stop banning **** that shouldn't be banned. I honestly don't think wobbling should've been banned at all in tourneys, and I don't even play IC's. Plus I think it works as a semi-infinite on stages without walls, I've seen someone make a vid of him doing it on final destination. But seriously, you people need to chill the **** out, it's not that big of a deal, plenty of 1 button infinites have already been discovered in brawl.

 

[Yuna]

1 missed tech = Death (though it requires a wall). So all Falco has to do is counterpick walled stages and he'll auto-win off one single missed tech. Remember, this isn't a "Don't get caught up next to a wall"-combo, this is "Anywhere on the stage as long as the Falco is facing the right direction"-combo.

Even if it requires special circumstances, it can happen. Other competitive fighting communities ban infinite combos if they're 100% inescapable, even if it requires your opponent to mess up first.

So this should go as well.

 

[Klowne]

Unless the rules were changed while i wasn't paying attention, wobbling isn't banned in melee. So i don't see why this would be.

 

[Nintendude]

Why should infinites be banned? It doesn't make any sense, unless the person is just stalling with the combo, of course.

In SSBM, people complained about Wobbling because a grab usually meant death. Well, doesn't an up-tilt with Jiggly mean death a lot of the time (combo into Rest with ease against just about every character)? Yet that's allowed, and I think it's a lot easier than grabbing in the proper situation to Wobble against an opponent who's actively trying to avoid it.

Infinite combos accomplish exactly the same thing as other things in the game that people never complain about. The only difference is that infinites just seem a lot lamer. People need to just find ways around these things and deal with them.

Also, if the character with the infinite / "broken" tactic isn't considered the best character in the game, then there's no reason to ban it.

 

[DerpDerpDerp]

Only in the infinitely stupid Smash Brothers community would you get people willing to ban every single stage with a wall in it rather than simply banning the character that can abuse the bug.

 

[ph00tbag]

1 missed tech = Death (though it requires a wall). So all Falco has to do is counterpick walled stages and he'll auto-win off one single missed tech. Remember, this isn't a "Don't get caught up next to a wall"-combo, this is "Anywhere on the stage as long as the Falco is facing the right direction"-combo.

Even if it requires special circumstances, it can happen. Other competitive fighting communities ban infinite combos if they're 100% inescapable, even if it requires your opponent to mess up first.

So this should go as well.

Well, if my understanding is correct, this is only truly infinite if there's a wall. If not, wouldn't you fall off the stage?

If that's the case, then maybe there could be character specific bans, either on stages, or on characters themselves.

 

[F@lc0-san]

If Wobbling is banned, this should too, IMO.

 

[Yuna]

FINALLY! Someone noticed the same thing I did. Plus now that people know of this, they can try to look out for missed techs, if they see one, start pressing b. I don't think that would be too hard. However, I say we allow it for a while and see how much it effects the metagame. Banning infinites is stupid, no other REAL fighting games try to ban infinites. If you smash kiddies want to be taken seriously, then stop banning **** that shouldn't be banned. I honestly don't think wobbling should've been banned at all in tourneys, and I don't even play IC's. Plus I think it works as a semi-infinite on stages without walls, I've seen someone make a vid of him doing it on final destination. But seriously, you people need to chill the **** out, it's not that big of a deal, plenty of 1 button infinites have already been discovered in brawl.

Umm... "real" fighting games do ban infinites that are full life to death off of a single opening. Well, more like they ban entire characters because then they'd be deemed too god, but the Smash kiddies don't wanna ban entire characters, so they just ban infinites.

Unless the rules were changed while i wasn't paying attention, wobbling isn't banned in melee. So i don't see why this would be.

You live on the wrong coast/continent. Wobbling is banned in parts of Europe and the East (I think) coast of the United States (where Wobbles lives).

In SSBM, people complained about Wobbling because a grab usually meant death. Well, doesn't an up-tilt with Jiggly mean death a lot of the time (combo into Rest with ease against just about every character)? Yet that's allowed, and I think it's a lot easier than grabbing in the proper situation to Wobble against an opponent who's actively trying to avoid it.

Because grabs are very common. A single grab = One lost stock.

One Jigglypuff Up-tilt = 1 rest, not a guaranteed KO with DI and not even a guaranteed combo if you airdodge. The Jigglypuff has to rest on reaction to the Up-tilt hitting. Or they can choose to U-tilt to rest and take the chance (and get punished for it). Either way, if the opposing player is fast enough, they can wiggle to airdodge (unless they're a fastfaller). This (and Wobbling) cannot be broken if it's done right. And they are also guaranteed as long as the player doing them don't make a mistake. Certain combos in Melee requires you to not DI, DI the wrong way, etc.

I say do what we did in Melee when Fox could take a stock off of people guaranteed from a single mistake (getting pillared/jabbed/whatevered): We ban the stages on which Falco is too godly. Yes, just like how Fox forced us to ban the Mushroom Kingdoms, Onett and Yoshi's Island, Falco will now force us to ban all of the stages with walls.

 

[Nintendude]

If Wobbling is banned, this should too, IMO.

I think the SBR voted that Wobbling should be allowed. It's just that most organizers disagree and ban it anyway.

 

[TrueRedemption]

it has to specifically be a stomach down fall, apparently characters on their back do not have this issue from the original post about this. Also perhaps this is an assumption but I would be surprised if getting shot during the standing up animation would lead into this chain, if nothing else because it is specific enough to not include laying on your back. I can certainly not say I've never missed a tech, but all this would change is a tiny mindgame of how quickly you'll rise after you fall. The lag of a missed tech is significantly in the rising to your feet part in the brawl stuff i've seen. I'd find it hard to believe they would increase the penalty of a missed tech by holding you unable to input command on the ground longer. Not to mention the way I see it you'd have to be hit by the laser before the start of getting to your feet, small window, especially considering falco had to have done something to require a tech you missed, if it was the end of a combo odds are falco is not able to get that shot off, or else he would have kept comboing you and not given the opportunity for you to tech and end it. Maybe i'll be wrong, clearly none of us here have the game or we'd have worked figuring this out, I'll just be surprised if its something of concern.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Also, if the character with the infinite / "broken" tactic isn't considered the best character in the game, then there's no reason to ban it.

So when tournaments consist of nothing but Falcos trying to laser spam people into walls then it might be okay to ban the tactic.

I don't play in tournaments or anything, but if infinites that are THAT easy to pull off are allowed, I doubt I would ever take interest in the tournament scene. I mean, all Falco has to do is shoot his opponent in the direction of the wall? They don't even have to be against the wall to start it.... pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

There are a lot of infinites in Brawl based off walls from the looks of it, rather than banning all wall stages, I just think infinites should be limited sort of like Melee chain grabs (I think those were limited to three grabs?)

 

[Yuna]

So when tournaments consist of nothing but Falcos trying to laser spam people into walls then it might be okay to ban the tactic.

I don't play in tournaments or anything, but if infinites that are THAT easy to pull off are allowed, I doubt I would ever take interest in the tournament scene. I mean, all Falco has to do is shoot his opponent in the direction of the wall? They don't even have to be against the wall to start it.... pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

There are a lot of infinites in Brawl based off walls from the looks of it, rather than banning all wall stages, I just think infinites should be limited sort of like Melee chain grabs (I think those were limited to three grabs?)

No, we banned a lot of stages because Fox could speficially take off a stock off of a single shine/jab/dair on them. The same should apply to these walls in Brawl.

No, Chaingrabs were neverlimited in Melee.

 

[Chaosblade77]

No, we banned a lot of stages because Fox could speficially take off a stock off of a single shine/jab/dair on them. The same should apply to these walls in Brawl.

No, Chaingrabs were neverlimited in Melee.

I thought I read that they were limited. Anyway, how many stages have walls? I have an idea of the 41 stages but haven't seen all of them yet. I can think of an awful lot of stages that have walls this could be used on...

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

Holy crap, the game isn't even out in america and there is semi-serious talk of banning things? That's completely ridiculous. If it's such a broken tactic, let's see it in action at least, before deciding how overpowered it is.

 

[Gea]

Kinda agree. The one stage where this is an issue is Shadow Moses ANYWAYS. DDD can chainthrow people against the wall to infinite and so can Falco with his laser. Plus it already has issues with no horizontal KOs till walls are broken.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

Only in the infinitely stupid Smash Brothers community would you get people willing to ban every single stage with a wall in it rather than simply banning the character that can abuse the bug.

nothing in this game has been banned yet

the stages banned in melee were banned for more reasons than just "it has a wall lol"

also don't look at people in the general brawl discussion forum to get an idea of the smash community. like 98% of the posters here have never even been to a tournament and don't know much about competitive smash yet.

TROLL TROLL TROLL eh i was bored

 

[UrajKingofDarkness]

This doesn't really look like an infinite at all. Nobody's touching controller 2, it looks like you could probably tech this. Maybe if two people actually playing against each other were to test it, it'd get more merit, but for now that's hardly even confirmation that it works against anyone other than people who can't tech.

 

[shadydentist]

Wobbling typically wasn't banned. Nor should this be. Nor should stages with walls.

And limiting it to 5 lasers is just stupid. If its really that powerful, then the next best thing would be to laser 4 times, and so on. Banning a technique should always be a last resort. The only techniques typically banned in Melee were the freeze glitches, which left your opponent completely frozen forever.

 

[Goldkirby]

Umm... "real" fighting games do ban infinites that are full life to death off of a single opening. Well, more like they ban entire characters because then they'd be deemed too god, but the Smash kiddies don't wanna ban entire characters, so they just ban infinites.

The only character that was available in the arcade version of a game I know of that has ever been banned is ST Akuma, and a lot of times 0 to death infinites are still allowed. I am pretty sure Alpha 3 and MvC2 allow them, but I haven't really heard of any games banning them. Then again I don't pay attention to 3d fighters, since I don't like them, so if you are talking about a Tekken, VF or some sort of game like that, I can believe you. In MvC2, getting hit by an "infinite" (yes I know they aren't true infinites, you spin out at around 50-60 hits) usually means that character is dead. I think one of the newer games, Arcana Hearts allows the infinites that are in place. Basically these infinites are 0 to run out the clock and you win cause of damage scaling. However, I have not heard of these being banned. Also, characters are pretty much always only banned if at high level play, the only real viable option is that one character (ala ST Akuma). Also afaik, ST Akuma is only banned in the US, in Japan, he is allowed, but it is looked down upon. Other bans like boss characters being made available for play are usually banned just because they aren't in the arcade versions afaik.


I still say we allow all infinites for a while until we can decide if they break the game or not. If this laser trick doesn't really break the game, then allow it, if it does, then I guess it would be OK to ban it as long as it adds depth to the game by banning it. We definitely don't want the metagame to become falco vs. falco, whoever misses 3-4 techs first loses.

My stance on infinites are pretty liberal. As long as it's not game breaking, allow them. If people can do stuff back that is just as ******** as the infinites, allow the infinites. The only reason to ever ban an infinite is if it makes the game unplayable. This is one of the reasons why I thought the banning of wobbling at *certain* tournaments was stupid. It doesn't break the game, and setting up for a wobble isn't even that easy.

EDIT: I know wobbling typically isn't banned, but I know it was banned in at least one big tourney I know of. *cough* OC3 *cough*

 

[Blatherskite]

You'd have to be a complete idiot to get caught in Falco's infinite, so it won't be banned.

 

[Libomasus]

A lot of people have already reported how hard it is to tech-chase because the new DI allows you to jump out of it. The wobble wasn't banned and I don't think this will be either. The new aerial dodge makes it even less likelier.

I mean, the chances of someone falling to the floor while stunned is slimmer than getting a grab with wobble. The timing looks hard too, and even if you miss a tech your invincibility frames would come out while Falco was still readying his shot. I don't think I've ever seen someone stall with wobble either, so i'd assume a certain number of hits is banned or at least it could be with this new technique.

 

[Tristan_win]

I think a more in depth study is needed before anything could be said for sure.

Although so far this look like the most likely candidate to be the first banned in brawl history.

 

[Losnar]

Ban FALCO!

He was always such a loser character. Crap personality.

 

[Adi]

The technique is so stupidly hard to set up and requires your opponent to completely screw up. It could happen but the chances are very slim, and frankly if you get caught in it, you deserve to get KO'd. You guys are really overreacting over a minor issue.

 

[hunger!]

if u get caught in it, get out your wallet and give the falco player some money to get out of it