So...about that Toon Link 3.5....

[--|====> MANIA]

How do you all feel about the changes made to Toon Link in the new 3.5 version of Project M?

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

B O T T O M 5 B O Y S

 

[PME]

I whole-heartedly agree with you @ PMS | Tink-er , and it pains me to say that.

 

[5ully]

I don't think hes that bad...idk

 

[--|====> MANIA]

Yeah, personally I miss the effectiveness Tink's bombs. Their short flight distance makes bomb jumping unbelievably easy, but it also makes bomb jumping kind of ineffective since your vertical height has been reduced so drastically. Its better than Link though, I tried bomb jumping with him and he just swatted the bomb away every time. Overall I think Tink's old zoning game lost alot of its effectiveness.

I don't think the bombs do a consistent 10% anymore either but scale down the farther it travels to its target.

I'm also ambivalent about the decision to give him his brawl nair. I like it because it has relatively safe kill potential, but I don't feel like it comes out as quickly or has as much priority as the sex kick did.

Granted, the game has only been out for a day so it may be too early to tell. Maybe Lunchables or Jolteon or someone will bust in here singing the praises of some amazing thing that Tink has. I doubt it though.

 

[Narpas_sword]

bomb jumping makes you hit the bomb too soon now =(
im finding i have to adjust a lot now, with 4 things that were heavy in my gameplay getting changed.
Those being Bombs, Upsmash, Nair, and crossing up shields with Upb

 

[White Wolf]

Ironically, all the Tlink mains started proving to everyone in 3.02 that he wasn't bottom five
And now he's bottom five.

 

[Narpas_sword]

we'll just have to prove them wrong again.

 

[White Wolf]

Honestly, that's what if feels like. Hit the lab, kiddos!

 

[White Wolf]

I don't think hes that bad...idk

I'm in agreement with you- he's definitely fallen a spot or two, though.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I'm in agreement with you- he's definitely fallen a spot or two, though.

how can you 'definitely' say that?

others have fallen too.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

With all those other characters' nerfed projectiles, Toon Link's game control via ranged combat is stronger again.

 

[Narpas_sword]

anyone know what the nair is on shield?

i was Shffling Nairs at my mates zelda like a mad ****. was working alright, but zelda doesnt exactly have the best OOS options

 

[--|====> MANIA]

With all those other characters' nerfed projectiles, Toon Link's game control via ranged combat is stronger again.

The boomerang is stronger now when it hits point blank. It does around 18% instead of 14% which is kind of awesome.

More arrow shenanigans will probably begin to be developed now that the bomb doesn't fly as far as it did in 3.0.

Lastly, I feel like bombs will now be used more passively than ever before such as in the form of: grounded 'landmines'. thrown in the air, and dropped on top of the opponent from above.

 

[Jolteon]

Nairs first hit is the same as 3.02 nair (12 DMG/22 BKB/100 KBG/361 degrees), and they also have the same landlag. In short, it has the same frame advantage on block as it used to (which is 0), but is actually better against shields as the back hit (-1 on block) allows you to safely cross-up shields with early Nairs.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

In situations where you would've used nair OoS in 3.02, what now?
I guess it's a mix of nair OoS, up-B OoS, grab and passive defense options as staying in shield, spot dodging or rolling, but I can't put it more precise. Any general rule for that?

 

[Narpas_sword]

Nairs first hit is the same as 3.02 nair (12 DMG/22 BKB/100 KBG/361 degrees), and they also have the same landlag. In short, it has the same frame advantage on block as it used to (which is 0), but is actually better against shields as the back hit (-1 on block) allows you to safely cross-up shields with early Nairs.

oooh, neat.

will make this my oos crossup instead of upb i guess =)

 

[5ully]

Nairs first hit is the same as 3.02 nair (12 DMG/22 BKB/100 KBG/361 degrees), and they also have the same landlag. In short, it has the same frame advantage on block as it used to (which is 0), but is actually better against shields as the back hit (-1 on block) allows you to safely cross-up shields with early Nairs.

I was just about to mention the cross up thing, its fantastic on shield. TBH when I first played PM I missed it when they changed the Nairs, it was a big part my game a lot when I played brawl for the short time that I did. I'm excited about his new Nair. OMG DOES ANYONE KNOW IF IT STILL TRIPS?!

His UpB grounded though is a recognizable nerf for me. It was fantastic for cross ups. His Bombs also are pretty sad now since that good bomb control was pivotal for all links. Arrows are nice. Down throw nerf I saw coming.

Overall still an "okay" character IMO.

 

[Jolteon]

I was just about to mention the cross up thing, its fantastic on shield. TBH when I first played PM I missed it when they changed the Nairs, it was a big part my game a lot when I played brawl for the short time that I did. I'm excited about his new Nair. OMG DOES ANYONE KNOW IF IT STILL TRIPS?!

His UpB grounded though is a recognizable nerf for me. It was fantastic for cross ups. His Bombs also are pretty sad now since that good bomb control was pivotal for all links. Arrows are nice. Down throw nerf I saw coming.

Overall still an "okay" character IMO.

Have to say I initially felt the same way. Nair was also a large component of my gameplay ever since 2.0 (and Melee YL), so I was extremely skeptical. In the end though I felt it was amazing, it's basically 2 separate pseudo-sex kicks in 1 aerial, except that it requires more precision (but also has lowered commitment). I first fell in love with it when I used it against shields. It does not trip in PM.

Also, I should probably discuss his changes further at some point to further flesh out their reasoning, but I can go into detail about his throws. For those unaware, I essentially homogenized his Dthrow and Fthrow. Fthrow/Dthrow now have the same BKB/KBG (3.02 dthrow but with +25 KBG), except FThrow sends at an angle of 70 and Dthrow at 110. FThrow's IASA matches Dthrow's so the followups are similar, and Dthrow's startup animation is considerably faster so it's not possible to react to it for DI purposes. Means that you can use his throws to catch poor DI in either direction, and also take into account stage positioning (Dthrow with your back to the edge will force them to choose between taking a free hit or DI'ing far off-stage for poor positioning, for example). KBG difference means two things, 1) platforms are far less likely to interrupt d/f throw -> up+b/dair at killing percents and 2) they don't combo into killing moves at really high percents.

Finally, while not a direct change, the global fix to throw release points means his uthrow is considerably better vs floaties/midweights, as opposed to just heavyweights/FF'ers. YL style uthrow -> uairs are pretty effective.

It should take some time to get used to his new throw game, as it's considerably more dynamic, taking multiple factors into account like %/stage positioning/DI/weight classes and Dthrow is no longer the go-to throw in most cases, but he still has a lot to work with his new grab game.

 

[Narpas_sword]

thats some awesome info man, thanks.

are you able to shed any light on the bomb throwing?

 

[White Wolf]

how can you 'definitely' say that?

others have fallen too.

Apologies for bad word choice. From what I've seen, even optimistically, observations and the general feel from some of the posts I've been reading seem to say so. Just and observation, not a fact at all.

 

[Narpas_sword]

we didnt even have a 'spot' to begin with =p

 

[Jolteon]

thats some awesome info man, thanks.

are you able to shed any light on the bomb throwing?

Bomb velocity for Link/TL in previous versions of PM were the result of fixing a bug in Brawl where the throw velocity item multiplier is applied to X velocity a 2nd time, which was affecting Peach's turnips when we matched them to Melee speed. Interestingly enough, it seems that the Brawl developers accounted for this bug when setting the item mulitiplier for bombs (Brawl bombs: 0.7x, Melee: 0.5x), as they nearly match Melee bomb speed after their multiplier is applied twice (ends up being 0.49x in Brawl after the bug). This bugfix didn't account for the Links previously, which we addressed in 3.5.

tl;dr it was the result of something that was previously overlooked when fixing a Brawl bug and they now match Melee speed/nearly match Brawl speed. But, it also indirectly addressed some issues we had with him (infinite bomb jump recovery, strength of bomb jumping, strength of his bombs in neutral, addressing the relative difficulty of his recovery).

 

[White Wolf]

we didnt even have a 'spot' to begin with =p

Honestly though.
In retrospect, I like the new Nair more, and the "scruffy" compact fighter Tlink seems to have become. Just my preference, though.

 

[Deleted member]

I can confirm tink will be good in 3.5

If you think that tink will ACTUALLY be garbage in 3.5, you need to look at him from a different point of view.

 

[5ully]

I can confirm tink will be good in 3.5

If you think that tink will ACTUALLY be garbage in 3.5, you need to look at him from a different point of view.

Agreed.

 

[flat man]

see i really do like pm but all the changing to characters moves is not fun. like the frame data is fine with me but just like changing a move out is kinda lame, i main roy in pm and the slight changes on his uair and dair aren't that fun to relearn but after wanting tlink as a secondary and seeing the changes to his nair just threw me off. if i could give advice to the pmbr it would be to stay closer to melee. not change stuff back to brawl because that's the last thing we want, the reason the game is made is to be more like melee. but i do like tlink i don't think hes that bad after playing him but who am i to say if hes bad most characters are good in pm anyway. side note brawl isn't a bad game its just not a finished game

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I don't think the issue is changing things to be more like Brawl or more like Melee, it's when you make these reworks of a character's tool kit that fundamentally changes how they play. See- 3.02 Zelda versus 3.5 Zelda.

Personally the Toon Link changes don't bother me as much and I'm actually considering him as a secondary in place of Meta Knight, whose changes really DO bother me.

 

[Warau]

Not really a fan of the new tether regrab. New Nair seems to be fine. 20 something damage if both hits connect. AGT seems significantly lower but bomb jump is easier now, thats probably good.

 

[G13_Flux]

is it me or did his up b get a boot to its distance?? its not in the changelog, but i feel like it definitely got buffed.. it now goes the same height as links and his even got added distance to it.

im surprised people havent been talking more about the upsmash and grounded up b changes. i guess the nair and the bombs were probably the biggest and most obvious changes, although ive much come to peace with them in the past couple of days. with upsmash, im slightly disappointed that the second hit is lost, although in all actuality it was probably way too safe, as i very rarely got punished for it in 3.02. with the new BKB and KBG values, it seems like upsmash is now reduced to more of a last attempt high percent killer. any thoughts?

the bigger change is the one to grounded up b though, imo. i totally saw this one happening, because it was definitely way too safe in 3.02. im curious to see how people weigh the risk of using it now. it still beats CCing, which is good, and remains his quickest OOS option, which in tossing them up at 45 degrees, actually isnt a terrible set up for a maze of projectiles to get you a combo. the only thing now is that its definitely not safe on shield anymore if you dont manage to chew through it. this makes its offensive utility less, unless you charge it. so what do you guys think of it now?

 

[5ully]

is it me or did his up b get a boot to its distance?? its not in the changelog, but i feel like it definitely got buffed.. it now goes the same height as links and his even got added distance to it.

im surprised people havent been talking more about the upsmash and grounded up b changes. i guess the nair and the bombs were probably the biggest and most obvious changes, although ive much come to peace with them in the past couple of days. with upsmash, im slightly disappointed that the second hit is lost, although in all actuality it was probably way too safe, as i very rarely got punished for it in 3.02. with the new BKB and KBG values, it seems like upsmash is now reduced to more of a last attempt high percent killer. any thoughts?

the bigger change is the one to grounded up b though, imo. i totally saw this one happening, because it was definitely way too safe in 3.02. im curious to see how people weigh the risk of using it now. it still beats CCing, which is good, and remains his quickest OOS option, which in tossing them up at 45 degrees, actually isnt a terrible set up for a maze of projectiles to get you a combo. the only thing now is that its definitely not safe on shield anymore if you dont manage to chew through it. this makes its offensive utility less, unless you charge it. so what do you guys think of it now?

Those were the two biggest nerfs to me IMO too, i used UpSmash a lot and almost never got punished but now its harder to get kills with but its not that big of a deal to me.
Biggest is UpB.. Q.Q it was so good grounded the cross ups were greatness. You barely move at all uncharged its insignificant. In the air tho, it definitly got buffed. Hahaha i remember using it to recover and landed on stage and thinking "How the hell did I get all the way up here" haha but yeah I think they forgot to put it in the changelog

 

[White Wolf]

Up B doesn't feel that bad imo. I feel like, overall, I struggle to kill charecters at high %'s with anything outside of aerial up B. Does anyone else feel this way?

 

[Shadic]

Aerial UpB distance did not change in 3.5.

 

[Deleted member]

The only thing thats different is the animation/effect. The actual move itself is the same.

 

[--|====> MANIA]

Up B doesn't feel that bad imo. I feel like, overall, I struggle to kill charecters at high %'s with anything outside of aerial up B. Does anyone else feel this way?

I definitely felt that way in 3.0. I had no trouble racking up damage via zoning, but then I would look and see and my opponent's percentage at 140%+ and think "why haven't I killed this guy yet?". Alot of his kill setups felt dependent on grabs and hard reads. If you whiffed a grab..well we all know how that ends. Often throwing out a random fair would do the trick.

I haven't had the opportunity to really play Tink as much as I'd like in 3.5, but I've gotten kills off of his new nair, which is something the sex kick in 3.0 would almost never be able to achieve unless you were edge-guarding or using it against an opponent near the edge at very high percents. F-Smash feels like it comes out faster and I've gotten more straight up kills off it in 3.5 than I did in 3.0 where I was basically forced to make a hard read almost every time I used it. I'll have to look at Tink's changelog to know for sure on the F-Smash though.

 

[steakhouse]

Ironically, all the Tlink mains started proving to everyone in 3.02 that he wasn't bottom five
And now he's bottom five.

if you honestly think that Toon Link is worse than 36 members of the cast, I don't even know what to say.

I love the changes. Upsmash is less bull****, it's no longer possible to pull off these -> http://youtu.be/TkoP9AvyTpk?t=4m5s <- kind of stupid autocombos. Downthrow is less bull****, getting a grab above 100% isn't a free stock anymore. AGT is less bull****, you can't do this -> http://youtu.be/VWIiKg5bIzU?t=11m36s <- anymore (granted I died, but I couldve come back with hookshot, I choked). Backair-backair-Up-B is no longer guaranteed on half the cast which is a good change. New nair is like his best move. All in all everything feels less bull**** and what works feels so legit, trajectories are natural, combos feels smoother. Love the changes.

 

[White Wolf]

if you honestly think that Toon Link is worse than 36 members of the cast, I don't even know what to say.

I love the changes. Upsmash is less bull****, it's no longer possible to pull off these -> http://youtu.be/TkoP9AvyTpk?t=4m5s <- kind of stupid autocombos. Downthrow is less bull****, getting a grab above 100% isn't a free stock anymore. AGT is less bull****, you can't do this -> http://youtu.be/VWIiKg5bIzU?t=11m36s <- anymore (granted I died, but I couldve come back with hookshot, I choked). Backair-backair-Up-B is no longer guaranteed on half the cast which is a good change. New nair is like his best move. All in all everything feels less bull**** and what works feels so legit, trajectories are natural, combos feels smoother. Love the changes.

That was me being subjecting myself to the panic of what seemed like "crushing" nerfs, as well as my own lack of faith in my character. Upon reading my posts that are a few days old now, I definitely over reacted to the changes to him. Thanks to you and the rest of the boards, that faith has been renewed. Part of me adjusting is also to the lack of "freeness" in this character now.

 

[steakhouse]

I actualy think Tink is a lot smoother somehow. There's just less room for mistake which is a good thing.

 

[White Wolf]

Absolutely. The whole game feels like it stresses you making less mistakes and thinking more about how you play. I still have no idea how the PMDT managed to make this game so much better, that is beyond me.

 

[Jolteon]

@ steakhouse : Global mechanics changes to landing detection and wavelanding/wavedashing are probably why you feel that way since movement in general is much nicer now. I guess lower landing lag on uair and arguably his new nair can also be considered a factor.