Snake to Ledge Trump to Back Air Gauranteed?

[EdreesesPieces]

Apologies if this is already discussed somewhere but i just came up with the idea to ledge trump to bair. The trick to this is to initiate the ledge trump by grabbing the ledge with the snake, so you won't have to wait some frames (forgot how many it is) before you can let go. Because of this you appear to be at a frame advantage and can just back air the opponent who appears to still be in ledge trump animation if you are on point.

Can anyone confirm or deny that this is guaranteed? I'm pretty sure it is, the computer can't get out of it no matter what but I am not able to test on humans right now. I doubt an opponent can air dodge in time though, the timing isn't even that strict and I have the cpu on mario, who if I purposely take too long to initiate the bair, will either jump or UP b me.

 

[JohnnyB]

Apologies if this is already discussed somewhere but i just came up with the idea to ledge trump to bair. The trick to this is to initiate the ledge trump by grabbing the ledge with the snake, so you won't have to wait some frames (forgot how many it is) before you can let go. Because of this you appear to be at a frame advantage and can just back air the opponent who appears to still be in ledge trump animation if you are on point.

Can anyone confirm or deny that this is guaranteed? I'm pretty sure it is, the computer can't get out of it no matter what but I am not able to test on humans right now. I doubt an opponent can air dodge in time though, the timing isn't even that strict and I have the cpu on mario, who if I purposely take too long to initiate the bair, will either jump or UP b me.

In my experience level 9 cpus perform frame perfect air dodges offstage. If a lvl mario can't get out of it i doubt a human could.

 

[ULookSmashing]

Apologies if this is already discussed somewhere but i just came up with the idea to ledge trump to bair. The trick to this is to initiate the ledge trump by grabbing the ledge with the snake, so you won't have to wait some frames (forgot how many it is) before you can let go. Because of this you appear to be at a frame advantage and can just back air the opponent who appears to still be in ledge trump animation if you are on point.

Can anyone confirm or deny that this is guaranteed? I'm pretty sure it is, the computer can't get out of it no matter what but I am not able to test on humans right now. I doubt an opponent can air dodge in time though, the timing isn't even that strict and I have the cpu on mario, who if I purposely take too long to initiate the bair, will either jump or UP b me.

I tried it out and it is guaranteed

 

[JosePollo]

Spoiler: Back air

Three active hitboxes with increasing priority the closer towards his torso. The x's on the sour spots denote a 361° angle and the meteor hitbox has an angle of 280°, so opponents will get launched down and behind Lucas (the Sheik here is DI'ing inwards). Said meteor hitbox is only active against airborne opponents, so that big middle hitbox would have a big "x" for an angle had Sheik been on the ground.

As you can see from the gif, if performed almost frame-perfect, Sheik has only about 3-4 frames to air dodge before the first hitbox connects.

 

[JesterJaded]

It's important to keep in mind that a ledge-trump itself is never guaranteed as the opponent can mash their get-up option if they see you attempt it, which more often than not is rather telegraphed. This is more of a we-tech-those situation than a guaranteed edgeguard.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

It's important to keep in mind that a ledge-trump itself is never guaranteed as the opponent can mash their get-up option if they see you attempt it, which more often than not is rather telegraphed. This is more of a we-tech-those situation than a guaranteed edgeguard.

True but all it takes is ONE read and you will spike them, that's huge. If they mash get up attack too often /predictably you can punish them many other ways. It puts you more in control. Rememebr you are ledge trumping with rope snake

 

[JohnnyB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGGe6pTtPQQ&app=desktop

Wow. According to dabuz, tether recoveries are exempt from the usual time limit to jump off the ledge. Making tether trumps a looooot less strict on timing than other trumps. You can jump the very next frame after you grab the ledge!

This seems pretty legit to me. I will definitely be putting some more time and money into practicing this.

 

[Lunacywastaken]

Probably isn't guarenteed, but it gives your opponent an extremely narrow frame to air-dodge it. Usually your opponent doesn't expect it anyway. I think it also covers the jump option of your opponent.

 

[busken]

Due to how strong he punishes, Lucas taking the trumping with rope snake is the most dangerous character when stealing the ledge. To confirm, Lucas's Rope Snake trump to Back air is confirmed, as shown here: https://youtu.be/EPsr5bwCmaQ?t=274

However, what are effective ways to take the ledge? If you are off-stage and wait for the opponent to grab the ledge and trump the opponent might read this and just recover past the ledge making a punish very hard. One way to trump effectively is by wavebouncing PK-Fire as shown here: https://youtu.be/o4sPHezgSDI?t=31

Near the ledge, if you do this you can perfectly snap on, trump, and back air. If they don't buffer a ledge roll, jump, or attack they will get hit. Now, what if they buffer a get-up option? That is even more punishable as shown in the first link.
In short, if you a perfect ledge trump you can always buffer a get-up option and if they don't buffer a get-up they will be trumped.(Watch video for better explanation)

This means off a trump you can punish every option if they buffer or not. If they don't buffer a get-up option b-air is usually the most optimal punish. If they do, buffer you can punish depending on the percent. Knowledge of Lucas's combo game is critical here. At high percents, the most optimal punish is back throw, or f-smash if they roll, B-air if they get-up attack(forces tech) F-air at low percents for tech to, or another aerial if they jump.

The only option they have left is to Up B past the ledge, which can be punished very easily.

In short, this gives Lucas the best ledgeguarding game in the game, when punishing optimally and with good practice. You can change the title to CONFIRMED. I also have tested this as well.