Snake Matchup Discussion

[demonictoonlink]

Goddamit Shadow

What Hyro said is COMPLETE truth. I'll upload a match vs a Snake where I demonstrate much GTFOness. Really, if Snake hits your shield with Ftilt, trying to punish it is asking for trouble. I like to jump OoS backwards while air dodging. Don't spam it as then it will be punished, but I find it the most efficient way to get away.

Hell, even punishing Snake's second hit of Ftilt on shield isn't that safe. Though Snakes will rarely do it, it's a legitimate mixup.

60-40 Snake.
Although I've beaten some Snakes, so 70-30 Toon Link.

 

[Hyro]

60-40 Snake.
Although I've Beaten Some Snakes, So 70-30 Toon Link.

LM AO

qft

 

[MJG]

Oh lord.

You all fail at life. Everyone knows its 80-20 because we can out camp the snake *harhar*

 

[Sosuke]

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this already, but when snake tries to pull out a second grenade, the first one will stop moving and fall.

This means it will lose all momentum in the air and drop.
It will also drop if you are holding it.

 

[demonictoonlink]

^
This is usually just a known, but it brings up a great point:

Be ****ing careful with Snake's grenades. You can throw them back whenever you feel it would be best, but I really don't think it's a good idea unless there is already a second grenade on the field.


And you guys are right.
MK
Diddy
Tink
Marth (has a long sword)
Snake

We should get more Snake in here.

 

[napZzz]

I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this already, but when snake tries to pull out a second grenade, the first one will stop moving and fall.

This means it will lose all momentum in the air and drop.
It will also drop if you are holding it.

yeah, this is something I do alot. Just light toss a nade at someone expecting them to pick it up then hold another one which is doing 2 things, cooking it getting ready to throw or being ready to nade strip and then throw it if they try to pick the other one up. Its a win/win situation for snake and something you should avoid.

You should drop any dignity/pride you have when playing this matchup and do everything in your power to run like a ***** and make the match long and painful for snake by constantly throwing ****. Its the best thing you can do because approaching him you'll probably get shut out and lose unless you're just better than them, which you shouldn't rely on

 

[Thebest1pj]

Goddamit Shadow

i loled tbh

 

[copacetic]

Saying it's 55-45 TL is just cocky and unrealistic. Even if you think you're good at the matchup, it's still over the top.
Saying it's 40-60 would mean that I'm a better player than the snakes I have beaten, assuming equal MU exp (which we pretty much have), and I am most definitely not a better player.


"-NEVER land in front of snake...."

Then play different snakes. If they read that you're gonna land behind them, (which apparently you do everytime), they can buffer a turnaround and do the same exact things as if you landed in front of them.

They're at a frame disadvantage for most things if they have to turn around first, and every other option but ftilt require more physical work and room for error, so the most likely option is ftilt. Which puts us at a 2 frame advantage (if they jab we have no advantage). But I suppose if you want I can start landing in front of them and get utilt killed.

"-If ftilt hits on shield..."

If you shield the first hit of ftilt, you should follow it up with a gtfo.

-If you do anything but jump out of shield, you'll get hit with a full ftilt.

-If you airdodge they can easily dash and powershield if you zair, then punish with... anything, really. Our airspeed is not comparable to his ground speed and range combined. If you land a zair out of this or you go through your full airdodge unpunished, play better snakes. (admittedly I do this method about half the time, but only because I don't think quick enough to nair.)

-If you double jump you'll get hit with ftilt1 and be out a jump and get your landing punished. (same as if you nair, but then you're forced to land on stage predictably)

-If you nair, you're only at a 2 frame disadvantage from airdodge, meaning a strong chance of hitting them. At worst, you take 8% and some knockback, but you keep your second jump and can go back to camping.
Overall the nair provides the lowest expected value for damage received and the only (though low) expected value for damage given greater than zero.

"-Utilt is god for TL, spam the **** out of it, and follow it with a bair every time."

I wouldn't recommend this at all. Hitting shields with utilt is asking for 21%.
Why do you think spam=hitting a shield? You can use a move a lot without being an idiot about it.

Responses in red.

I'm probably going to stop coming to these boards for a while.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I beat PR Snakes so it MUST be 99-1 TL. Seriously. Utilt is great because this game has so much shieldstun that it is safe and he will not ftilt OoS because of the stun...Maybe Fatal doesnt know how to play the matchup, Copacetic but almost all u mentioned should be getting you punished...

 

[MJG]

Fatal himself said he doesn't know the MU well >_>. Mikeray doesn't know it too well either because he was trying to get me to play him (over wifi *lol*)

Im sure bizkits would be good enough to adapt to TL but ya...60-40 is being generous for this MU...At least MK dies

 

[copacetic]

TLM: Again, why would you hit a shield with utilt? And what, exactly, of the things I cited will get me punished with a worse outcome than other options, given the situation? You seem to have completely ignored what I said above (judging from you still thinking someone would utilt on shield), in favor of making a sarcastic and negative comment without using any information to back up your claims. 55-45 is not too great a difference over the 50-50 that some people are saying, and yet you cling to that and use it to try to make me look like a complete idiot just for disagreeing with you. This is supposed to be a discussion, if you're just going to instantly throw out any dissenting remarks, then it's not a discussion. It's a summary.

And yeah, mikeray thought he knew it, but he was surprised when I beat him like 3 weeks ago so he said he was gonna start practicing it a lot more ( sorry if that means he's hunting you down). And actually with bizkit it was the other way around. He started off ahead in our set and I came back and won it (last game going to halberd is scary as hell vs snakes). It was more me adapting to him. Either way, all three still have a good amount of experience (there are about 4 ok TL mains here, notably melito, and they have been going oor for tourneys a bunch. mikeray gets most of his online, which is infested with TL, but it still serves as ok practice for getting an idea of what your opponent can do), about the same experience that I have from fighting them. I could go on, but it's a bit of a personal dialogue and is summed up with simply "we're on the same level with this MU"

 

[demonictoonlink]

It's not that we think you're stupid, but you are saying Toon Link has an advantage over the second best character in the game. This, even if it was true, would take a lot of work to convince any of us.

Copacetic, who is it that usually beats you in tournaments? Is it never a Snake? The way you make it sound is that you simply don't lose to Snakes, and if this is true, maybe you know something we don't/are underrating yourself and overrating those Snakes.

Don't leave, especially if you are this confident in the matchup. And I doubt anyone is trying to insult you, but again, having the advantage over the #2 character is pretty hard to just agree with.


On another note, does anyone here know of Dookdigity? I think he quit awhile again, but he was easily a top ten Snake. Anyone?

 

[TheJerm]

I have a good amount of snake practice. Im telling you guys its 55-45 snake. We can slightly out camp snake, its only the killing we have to worry about.

Its not 60/40.. Mk is 60/40 and its not the same difficulty.

Edit: you know what, ive realized that spend so much time worrying about the ratio of the match up when we should just discuss what to do instead.

Im pretty sure most of us agree is slightly in snakes favor, so lets just say that and learn from eachother what we need to do to **** those noob snakes.

 

[TLMSheikant]

It's not that we think you're stupid, but you are saying Toon Link has an advantage over the second best character in the game. This, even if it was true, would take a lot of work to convince any of us.

Copacetic, who is it that usually beats you in tournaments? Is it never a Snake? The way you make it sound is that you simply don't lose to Snakes, and if this is true, maybe you know something we don't/are underrating yourself and overrating those Snakes.

Don't leave, especially if you are this confident in the matchup. And I doubt anyone is trying to insult you, but again, having the advantage over the #2 character is pretty hard to just agree with.


On another note, does anyone here know of Dookdigity? I think he quit awhile again, but he was easily a top ten Snake. Anyone?

This, pretty much. We aren't trying to insult you. Its just difficult to believe we have the adv over snake :S. 55-45 or 60-40 yes. But advantage? no. >_>

 

[MJG]

It's not that we think you're stupid, but you are saying Toon Link has an advantage over the second best character in the game. This, even if it was true, would take a lot of work to convince any of us.

Copacetic, who is it that usually beats you in tournaments? Is it never a Snake? The way you make it sound is that you simply don't lose to Snakes, and if this is true, maybe you know something we don't/are underrating yourself and overrating those Snakes.

Don't leave, especially if you are this confident in the matchup. And I doubt anyone is trying to insult you, but again, having the advantage over the #2 character is pretty hard to just agree with.


On another note, does anyone here know of Dookdigity? I think he quit awhile again, but he was easily a top ten Snake. Anyone?

I don't think Ally rated him a top 10 snake (At least in his blog) >_>

Being even with snake is impractical...we have to work 3 TIMES harder than snake in this MU

 

[copacetic]

It's not that we think you're stupid, but you are saying Toon Link has an advantage over the second best character in the game. This, even if it was true, would take a lot of work to convince any of us.
I think we're paying too much weight on tier position as to why we can't win. Jigglypuff, one of the worst characters in the game, has one of the best matchups with metaknight (55-45, though outdated)

Copacetic, who is it that usually beats you in tournaments? Is it never a Snake? The way you make it sound is that you simply don't lose to Snakes, and if this is true, maybe you know something we don't/are underrating yourself and overrating those Snakes.
I last lost to a snake in october maybe? Last few tournaments I lost to: Bloodcross (four times, always find him in brackets) (Falco/mk), TeeVee (mk), Doom (mk), Koolaid (pit, wario) and X-Factor (ICs). Last 4 tourneys = 6 MK losses.... not fun.

And yeah it's very true we have to work harder. Snake basically just has to wait for a mistake, whereas we have to be perfect. But ideally, we are perfect, right? TL is just hard to play as, if we wanted to just sit back and take it easy during matches we'd be playing mk.

 

[IrisKong]

TeeVee plays MK now? thought he played R.O.B.?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Aight, nice record Cop. I can see why you don't think Snake is that bad.

But yeah, ratios aside, let's talk about HOW to camp Snake.

Arrow canceling seems pretty good when you have the room, but TBH if the opponent knows Tink at all, arrows are just a terrible projectile.
Bomb camping IMO is where it's at. Jumping and throwing them down with the occasional 'rang seems to be the best.

 

[copacetic]

He goes MK and diddy a lot now. He still plays rob for some matchups I think, but I don't see it much.

 

[Hyro]

To camp Snake you just don't touch the ground. SH bomb pull, DJ bomb throw down, bomb pull while falling, land with a retreating zair, they shouldn't try to chase since you have a bomb, do something with the bomb, rinse and repeat over and over. Don't get your double jump read with a nair. Instead, read their nair with an ibomb. Remember, you're forcing them in the air so you can juggle them.

 

[WindMajor]

Later on in the discussion, we should discuss ledge options against snake.

 

[MJG]

Are people actually having trouble against snake when they are on the ledge? I find that snakes will back of sometimes when im on the ledge...Just don't be predictable with your ledge tactics or you will eat a Back Air (I'd laugh if I saw this happen to a TL main).

Marth gives us WAY more trouble getting back on stage than snake does IMO.

 

[TLMSheikant]

This matchup is sooo dumb when both players know each other and how to play the matchup. Rated and I camped to death with him approaching whenever I got the lead. Know how it ended? The timer was about 8 seconds left and we both were last stock 0%, I ran, cancelled a dair with the smashville platform, drew a bomb, threw it at him but it didnt hit. I think there was 4 or 3 seconds left. I got under Smashville and just UpB'd to ensure a tie lmao. This all in a friendly...I must stop camping him in friendlies.

 

[WindMajor]

I remember you timed him out with a 1% lead in a tournament match. I lol'd.

 

[IrisKong]

Snake on the ledge can be annoying if he does the whole "drop 2 nades at the edge, role away and fire nakita then continue grenade" shinanigans. I also agree marth is much more difficult than snake as far as ledge junk.

 

[TLMSheikant]

OP updated.

 

[Lobos]

I agree with the ban stage......not sure about rainbow cruise as a CP tho.....we don't have anything better?

 

[WindMajor]

I'm not exactly a fan of Snakes in Final.

 

[Kaffei]

I'm not exactly a fan of Snakes in Final.

Apparently SV is a bad stage vs Snake? I personally find it really comfortable.. Is that bad

 

[MJG]

Apparently SV is a bad stage vs Snake? I personally find it really comfortable.. Is that bad

There are other stages that will be banned before SV, but its not really too good of a stage to play on. Its not bad...but its not a stage that I will take snake to...

 

[Kaffei]

I absolutely love fighting snakes on SV lmao.

 

[Hyro]

I take every single character in brawl to FD/SV always always always

 

[Kaffei]

I take every single character in brawl to FD/SV always always always

ew hyro i hate fd

 

[demonictoonlink]

I take every single character in brawl to FD/SV always always always

This pretty much

Also, inb4flames, but I think Snake outcamps us on FD, while we outcamp him on SV (throwing bombs from platform shenanigans)

 

[TheJerm]

I take snakes to rainbow or FD/SV depending on their ban and stages played.

 

[Dre89]

"-NEVER land in front of snake. You will eat a jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, or 40% in grabs if you do. If you land behind, his only viable option is ftilt, which can be shielded."

Then play different snakes. If they read that you're gonna land behind them, (which apparently you do everytime), they can buffer a turnaround and do the same exact things as if you landed in front of them.

I know this is a dead point, but I just felt like saying it anyway-

The Snake doesn't even have to read the Toon landing behind him and sacrifice a few frames turning around.

Even if you're talking about landing behind him as an infrequent mix-up, rather than your main approach (the idea being the Snake doesn't read it), it's still no different to landing in front of him. Jab, ftilt, dtilt and utilt can still all be done without losing any frames. Except for the grab, it's exactly the same as landing in front of him, the Snake doesn't need to read it and commit to turning around.

 

[Gnes]

I know this is a dead point, but I just felt like saying it anyway-

The Snake doesn't even have to read the Toon landing behind him and sacrifice a few frames turning around.

Even if you're talking about landing behind him as an infrequent mix-up, rather than your main approach (the idea being the Snake doesn't read it), it's still no different to landing in front of him. Jab, ftilt, dtilt and utilt can still all be done without losing any frames. Except for the grab, it's exactly the same as landing in front of him, the Snake doesn't need to read it and commit to turning around.

This is true ^_^

 

[Alzi]

You know when you are playing the MU wrong against snake if you find yourself approaching more then the snake is.

So try not to approach as much.

Snake can rank up damage pretty quick so i suggest once you are one stock in the lead do some extreme camping and always shield at high % never spot dodge.
[/size]

 

[demonictoonlink]

So I heard Jerm got 3 stocked in an MM against Halberd and HyRo got 3-0d.

edit: by his MK :/

 

[Kaffei]

So I heard Jerm got 3 stocked in an MM against Halberd and HyRo got 3-0d.

edit: by his MK :/

Wow............